The Chinese Difinition of Chi Kung

[ChiDragon]

FYI...

My conclusion of this thread did not come the Chinese literature. As I say before, I did not believe any of it. It is because the Chinese only say what it is and it works; all the given reasons for the "WHY" do not make any sense. For being an engineer, I have tell myself there got to be a scientific explanation for Chi Kung. Then, I read and read and just cannot come to a conclusion from the Chinese materials. I told myself, I have to look else where like into the western science world. They are full of scientific information that might help me to draw to some kind of conclusion.

 

First, I do was to observe what is so peculiar about Chi Kung. If I watch any demonstration of Chi Kung, I saw the practitioner always move the arms, legs and breath slowly. Have you ever wonder how come only the Chi Kung practitioners are so healthy as oppose to normal people...??? The normal people do breathe and move but why some of them are not so healthy...???

 

I gave that a deep thought that must be a reason for moving slow and breathe deeply. Since performing Chi Kung is improving our health, it must be something has to do with physiology. So, I studied physiology on my own and experimented with slow body movements and do abdominal breathings.

 

I practiced Tai Ji for many years, I figured that since by moving the muscles and deep breathing slowly. I thought to myself why don't I not do the Tai Ji movements but just do some simple movements by standing in a 4' by 4' area. All the movements include moving the arms, legs, wrist, waist, and head. Since I already knew how to do abdominal breathing from Tai Ji, I can do that with no problem.

 

I do this exercise, whenever I am standing free, like watching TV, in the back yard for the last eight years. I have found that my health improved more drastically and my body is much stronger as compared to doing Tai Ji. It was because Tai Ji requires lots of space and time which I cannot practice it as often; but now I can practice more with this simple movements.

Edited August 11, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Birch]

Also, what the embryonic breathing state reveals is that mind is breath is energy. So a person could be doing something that has nothing to do with breathing or posture...fully using the mind...and they could be doing qigong. Or even if they were cultivating no-mind, that would still count as qigong for such a person. Because their mind/breath/energy is being affected due to something they are doing.

 

Anyway, this is my unwavering view. Enjoy...or don't.

What he said:-)

[Baguakid]

Ok, I'm done here... this conversation is making me stupid.

 

Thanks mjjbecker, for that statement before I jumped of a tall building and killed myself.

 

Bye Bye.

[mjjbecker]

FYI...

My conclusion of this thread did not come the Chinese literature. As I say before, I did not believe any of it. It is because the Chinese only say what it is and it works; all the given reasons for the "WHY" do not make any sense. For being an engineer, I have tell myself there got to be a scientific explanation for Chi Kung. Then, I read and read and just cannot come to a conclusion from the Chinese materials. I told myself, I have to look else where like into the western science world. They are full of scientific information that might help me to draw to some kind of conclusion.

 

Why then did you title this thread 'The Chinese Definition of Chi Kung'?

 

The reasons don't make sense because, either you've never been taught by someone who understands the subject or, you don't have the ability to understand them. Reading books alone? Hardly...Reading books is merely a start. You have to go and seek out teachers that understand and can pass on what they know.

 

Like many who are ignorant of the facts and who have not gone out and educated themselves, you blame others for your ignorance. Because you don't understand something it must be wrong. You don't make the effort to seek out those who could help you and explain the terms. Instead you take the easy option and decide you must be right and the others are simply wrong.

 

Since you are in the USA now, why don't you take the opportunity to go and learn about and experience what I have been writing about here?

 

http://www.silkreeler.com/drupal/node/21

http://www.examiner.com/tai-chi-in-national/a-magical-qigong-moment-with-master-zhang-xue-xin

 

Your choice.

[mjjbecker]

Ok, I'm done here... this conversation is making me stupid.

 

Thanks mjjbecker, for that statement before I jumped of a tall building and killed myself.

 

Bye Bye.

 

It is always the danger of interacting with certain people that their 'qualities' might become contagious. Don't forget your shielding.

 

You throw the offending person off the tall building, not yourself .

[宁]

I don't practice the method of mr. Liping, however i find some of his articles interesting.

 

Just adding to the mix

Bolded for emphasis.

 

 

 

Teaching Experience (2) - Principle of Daoist Breathing

In "Ling Bao Bi Fa" cultivation practice, one needs to know its various breathing methods. There is an underlying principle of how to breath during the practice. I believe that by practicing the breathing methods involved separately will be beneficial to the overall practice and hence I suggested this to Master Wang. He said, "That's fine, just do what you think will work." So during the seminar, I used my own version of daoyin to guide the participants to practice breathing. In the beginning, some old students who notice that my daoyin words were different from Master Wang's and so they objected. Master Wang explained to them, "Xiao Shen has his own ideas on the practice, try follow along and maybe you can understand it eventually." And no objected anymore. Practicing breathing methods separately can help the participants to improve quickly and getting a higher quality practice session. Breathing is the foundation of foundation.

 

The ancient says that, "Teach the methods but not the Fire."

The fire here means the combinations of intention and breathings.

 

Later on, I assembled all the breathing methods that Master Wang has taught and wrote an article entitled, "Breathing methods During Meditation" and published it on a magazine. In 2001, I refined the instructions on the breathing methods again to help other to understand and do it better. In 2005, I merged all the breathing methods together and wrote another article called "Systematic Method of Breathing" and presented it in an international conference. The presentation was received very well. In 2007, being influenced by my new understanding of "Ling Bao Bi Fa" and Master Wang's instructions, I re-edited "Systematic Method of Breathing" and renamed it "Opening and Closing, Rising and Falling---Principle of breathing." I converted this into slides in help me present it to a wider audience.

 

In general, beginners usually neglect the importance of breathing, they thought it's very easy and so don't usually take it seriously. This can has adverse effects on their practice since beginning dandao utilize "youwei" methods and breathing is the most important aspect of it. Without a good foundation in breathing, it's hard to get to advanced level.

 

One needs to understand the different aspects of breathing practice, one should know and be able to follow the method correctly and understand the reasons and effect of each method. Without a teacher to explain and daoyin, it's really difficult to master the methods. In summary, breathing is an important topic in dandao that needs to be carefully addressed by every serious practitioner.

[Birch]

I'd like to get my paws on those slides:-)

[Golden Path]

If you want to know more about Chi...Link: Chi

Thanks for the article, but it says only about what I have written earlier and briefly:

Yes, when breathing, an external qi is absorbed from the air, and this is post-heaven qi (氣 or 气)...

In the ancient times mainly used 炁 (primordial, preheaven energy), and not 气

[Golden Path]

Is there anybody would like to discussion Chi Kung scientifically to investigate why it is giving us a healthy body.....????

 

Because our body - a combination of different energies in different states and manifestations, if you are working with this energy using right methods of qigong (not breathing!) or better alchemy , this strengthens the body and gaining health.

 

All the explanations are short enough, long discussions - from not knowing!

[ChiDragon]

Let's start with a deep oxygenated breath and an open mind. There are lots of ideas that we can be reading about but some are only superficial. Sometimes, we need to absorb the good information and filter the unwanted. However, if there was a missing link, then it needs to be found elsewhere. Let's look at Tai Ji for instance, it improved my breathing problem just by the continuous practice. It also gives me good muscle tone and transform some of the muscles to a fast twitch type of muscles. What are the reasons behind all this. However, a good Tai Ji instructor will not and cannot tell me all the good reasons. Since the key factors here are about the physical change of the body by the slow moments and breathing, I need to go to a good reliable source for a scientific explanation about what is taken place in my body while performing the Tai Ji exercise. Mainly, I want to come to a conclusion that why breathing is a must in Chi Kung. To find a good answer, I must use western science for a good source of information.

 

If we want to talk about energy, then this is the right place for it. Let's start with the requirement of the muscle contraction. The muscle contraction requires a biochemical energy called adenosine triphosphate, ATP. The ATP are generated by the mitochondria in the muscles. The ATP requires lots of oxygen to be combined with the glucose in order to be generated. The movements in Tai Ji are always having the the arms and legs bent which causing all the muscles to be contracted slightly.

 

Each time when the muscles contract, the mitochondria in the muscles generate the ATP energy for the contraction. The ATP will be collapsed as soon the muscle are relaxed. Therefore, new ATP will be needed for the next contraction. In order to generate the ATP continuously, a constant source of oxygen must be provided. Guess where the source of oxygen came from. You guessed, it was from breathing. However, in our regular breathing will not be enough but we want to provide a maximum amount of oxygen possible to the body. Hence, that is where the "abdominal breathing" comes into the picture.

 

What the "abdominal breath" does was to have the abdomen fully expanded to flatten the diaphragm allowing the lung to increase its volume to hold a maximum amount of air possible. The Tia Ji breathes slowly was to allow ample of time for the red blood cells to collect the oxygen and delivered to the muscle cells to generate the ATP for contraction. In conclusion, Tai Ji was considered to be a form of Chi Kung was by the Chinese definition of Chi Kung which requires "abdominal breathing".

[宁]

I'd like to get my paws on those slides:-)

 

Ha ha, I wouldn't. Just posted that because the bolded ideas are interesting.

Especially the one about "Teaching the method, but not the Fire"

 

I wonder if this Fire thing is the same as huohou 火喉.

[ChiDragon]

Ha ha, I wouldn't. Just posted that because the bolded ideas are interesting.

Especially the one about "Teaching the method, but not the Fire"

 

I wonder if this Fire thing is the same as huohou 火喉.

火喉 is an expression to indicate that how good the practitioner is based on how long and experience of the practice.

Edited August 11, 2011 by ChiDragon

[宁]

火喉 is an expression to indicate that how good the practitioner is based on how long and experience of the practice.

 

I don't think so. At least, many of the scholarly sources indicate otherwise. Just wanted to understand it's connection with the 'Fire'.

[gendao]

[Golden Path]

...To find a good answer, I must use western science for a good source of information.

 

Already a wrong approach because western science does not consider in its theory - qi. And qi is not something virtual, but very real energy.

 

If we want to talk about energy, then this is the right place for it. Let's start with the requirement of the muscle contraction. The muscle contraction requires a biochemical energy called adenosine triphosphate, ATP. The ATP are generated by the mitochondria in the muscles. The ATP requires lots of oxygen to be combined with the glucose in order to be generated. The movements in Tai Ji are always having the the arms and legs bent which causing all the muscles to be contracted slightly.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate

In order to properly consider the question from this point of view, it is necessary to study the course of organic chemistry and biology. You make this offer?

 

Then, good master qigong for whom qi is not a virtual energy (about what many talk), but a very real energy, must apply this theory and his practical knowledge and experience and explain it to you.

You are hoping to find here such a man? )))

Nevertheless, let's try to find here the main problem...

Af first, you wrote: "The muscle contraction requires a biochemical energy called adenosine triphosphate, ATP". Please explain what is it -"The muscle contraction" ? when it occur?

[ChiDragon]

I don't think so. At least, many of the scholarly sources indicate otherwise. Just wanted to understand it's connection with the 'Fire'.

 

火喉 is an expression to indicate that how good the practitioner is based on how long and experience of the practice.

 

Edited:

Ok, I'm sorry, here is the term really connected to the "Fire".

 

Actually, the term was derived from cooking. It describes the cooking level of the food depends on how long it has been cooked. Hence, the term was used to describe or to determine the experience of the chef. It, also, describes the quality of the dish was being prepared such as the color, arrangement and flavor.

 

Now-a-days, it was also used to describe other things too as I had it in the first place....

Edited August 12, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

命 ming is the Chinese equivalent of Fate/Destiny.

Yuanfen is not as strong and broadly-applicable a term, more akin to a "synchronous" ("the experience of two or more events, that are apparently causally unrelated or unlikely to occur together by chance, that are observed to occur together in a meaningful manner") meeting/connection between 2 people..

But from the horse's own mouth?

There is a nuance between the two in application.

 

1. 緣 is like two people are meant to be met by fate.

 

2. 命 is like for a fixed event that will happen. e.g. Someone will die when crossing a street and hit by a car.

[ChiDragon]

Already a wrong approach because western science does not consider in its theory - qi. And qi is not something virtual, but very real energy.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate

1. In order to properly consider the question from this point of view, it is necessary to study the course of organic chemistry and biology. You make this offer?

 

2. Then, good master qigong for whom qi is not a virtual energy (about what many talk), but a very real energy, must apply this theory and his practical knowledge and experience and explain it to you.

You are hoping to find here such a man? )))

Nevertheless, let's try to find here the main problem...

3.At first, you wrote: "The muscle contraction requires a biochemical energy called adenosine triphosphate, ATP". Please explain what is it -"The muscle contraction" ? when it occur?

 

1. That is something you have to find out youself. If you do a google search, you can read it all over the internet.

2. That all depends how far is the level of understanding that each individual wants to attain.

3. Google Muscle and "ATP" online.

 

Edited to add:

I did not see your Chi Kung experience posted here yet:

Input your CK experience

 

 

Edited to add again:

1. Already a wrong approach because western science does not consider in its theory - qi.

 

2. And qi is not something virtual, but very real energy.

 

1. Who decided that "qi" was not in the western science theory...??? And how do you justified that...???

 

2. ATP is not real energy.....???????????

Edited August 12, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Ha ha, I wouldn't. Just posted that because the bolded ideas are interesting.

Especially the one about "Teaching the method, but not the Fire"

 

I wonder if this Fire thing is the same as huohou 火喉.

I don't know that first phrase but you previously said that 'fire' had to do with intention and breath.

 

Here is how I know the phrase 'huohou' as one of the three essentials of 内丹 (inner alchemy or elixir):

 

Huohou: The fire stands for the spirit (application of the mind or capacity to cultivate). I have seen the phrase translated as "Heating Control" since it has to do with the internal practice (not the practitioner) in terms of time, duration, sequence in terms of the Qi circulation. So these are kind of 'control' elements to the internal practice. The internal practice, as I know it:

1. Refine Essence, convert to Qi (lower dan tian)

2. Refine Qi to nourish the spirit (middle dan tian)

3. Refine the spirit to return to nothingness (upper dan tian)

4. Refine nothingness to integrate to Dao

 

This is focusing on the prenatal elements. A focus on the postnatal elements would mean a focus on semen (essence), breath (Qi) and the thinking mind (spirit). But the dividing line is not really there on some level since they support each other (pre and post).

 

Another interesting shared word is formed by Qian and Kun (乾坤) to mean 'stove-ding; they are the two elixir fields. Qian represents the head and is 'ding' which is an ancient furnace used to burn fire, or refine elixir. Kun represents the abdomen and is the stove.

[on the path]

Hi there,

 

I think the Chinese definition of what Qi Gong, depends on where you go?!! I think the starting point is that there are many different forms of 'exercise', where does internal training finish and Qi gong start? Where does Qi gong end and martial art begin? Isn't internal training combined with external, can one be devoid of the other? Perhaps we should be looking at the source and not at its branches?

[宁]

I don't know that first phrase but you previously said that 'fire' had to do with intention and breath.

 

Here is how I know the phrase 'huohou' as one of the three essentials of 内丹 (inner alchemy or elixir):

 

Huohou: The fire stands for the spirit (application of the mind or capacity to cultivate). I have seen the phrase translated as "Heating Control" since it has to do with the internal practice (not the practitioner) in terms of time, duration, sequence in terms of the Qi circulation. So these are kind of 'control' elements to the internal practice. The internal practice, as I know it:

1. Refine Essence, convert to Qi (lower dan tian)

2. Refine Qi to nourish the spirit (middle dan tian)

3. Refine the spirit to return to nothingness (upper dan tian)

4. Refine nothingness to integrate to Dao

 

This is focusing on the prenatal elements. A focus on the postnatal elements would mean a focus on semen (essence), breath (Qi) and the thinking mind (spirit). But the dividing line is not really there on some level since they support each other (pre and post).

 

Another interesting shared word is formed by Qian and Kun (乾坤) to mean 'stove-ding; they are the two elixir fields. Qian represents the head and is 'ding' which is an ancient furnace used to burn fire, or refine elixir. Kun represents the abdomen and is the stove.

 

 

Thanks!

It was stupid from my part to ask such a thing in the first place, because every definition is contextual with the particular philosophy of the daoist school we are reffering to.

Although many school have different meanings for the terms, in practice they function the way they are supposed to.

IMO, we should state clearly to which of these schools and philosophies we make refference to, before starting a longwinded discussion that is bound to arrive to no intelligent conclusion.

[Birch]

Ha ha, I wouldn't. Just posted that because the bolded ideas are interesting.

Especially the one about "Teaching the method, but not the Fire"

 

I wonder if this Fire thing is the same as huohou 火喉.

Well weirdly I would because with practice I now have the muscle/breath control to really start learning proper technique.

This is not to take away from the less tangible aspects of qi-gong. If you look at yoga (like iyengar for example) there's a lot of technical explanation that goes into teaching the alignments. I think even self-taught cooks like reading recipes. Well I do:-)

And especially from students of great chefs:-)

[宁]

Well weirdly I would because with practice I now have the muscle/breath control to really start learning proper technique.

This is not to take away from the less tangible aspects of qi-gong. If you look at yoga (like iyengar for example) there's a lot of technical explanation that goes into teaching the alignments. I think even self-taught cooks like reading recipes. Well I do:-)

And especially from students of great chefs:-)

 

Talking about chefs, did you know that you can make a bomb, or a very toxic poison, using nothing more than the ingredients that you have in a kitchen?

 

I admit however that the idea looks appealing, especially when you don't have any other alternative! But let's face it, that would be a desperate case, wouldn't it?

[ChiDragon]

Hi there,

 

Perhaps we should be looking at the source and not at its branches?

 

Without a good foundation in breathing, it's hard to get to advanced level.

 

 

The thread has kind of moved sideways from Chidragon's initial assertion that Qi is breath, and breath only, and that Qigong is only working with breath. The idea that qigong could be done without any specific breath work was only used as an example to refute his claims.

 

Very Wise....!!!

You are a gentleman and a scholar.

[Birch]

Talking about chefs, did you know that you can make a bomb, or a very toxic poison, using nothing more than the ingredients that you have in a kitchen?

 

I admit however that the idea looks appealing, especially when you don't have any other alternative! But let's face it, that would be a desperate case, wouldn't it?

 

Apparently. Although I'm not interested in making poisons or bombs. What's your point?