The Chinese Difinition of Chi Kung

[ChiDragon]

1.Well I told you to do it before doing any explaination and not give an explaination

and not doing it.

2.Believe? Common sense is that you check the things physical others telling.

Well, I don't do anything, fanatically, which I don't believe in...

 

If I do it for that reason and keep on tacking and counting on the breaths, I will loose my mind. Speaking about regulating the mind....???

 

 

PS...

I had shot his method down in the Hong Kong Chi Kung site once before.

Edited August 13, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Baguakid]

ChiDragon,

 

What is your opinion on this video:

 

 

What is this Masters source of Qi?

[Aetherous]

What are the other things, is breathing included...??? If yes, to what extent of breathing...???

 

Nope.

 

I try to be more accurate; and I am not familiar with the "mind method". Can you be more specific and describe the "mind methods"...???

 

Thank you.

 

Methods using only the mind to influence the qi. No particular body posture. No attention on how I'm breathing.

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon,

 

What is your opinion on this video:

 

 

What is this Masters source of Qi?

BTW I have seen this clips quite a few time too.

 

Most people think it was Qi. I am considering it was to be Jin also. My explanation is that he had activated all the mitochondria in his body muscles to generated the body energy(ATP). I am not at his level, but I can do it at some point to Fa Jin to impress my friends. They do envy me sometimes.

 

The reason I said he was Fa Jin because his hand was tremoring as one of the white spectators describes it. As a matter of fact, I can Fa Jin and sending any women to fly away, sometimes, men at my size too. My wife hates that when I do that to her.

Edited August 13, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Baguakid]

What do you think about this one:

 

[ChiDragon]

What do you think about this one:

 

OK. This is high level of Chi Kung with the muscles contracted and must be done with deep breathing. He was showing how to balance himself. To balance oneself requires muscle contraction to control all the muscles in the body. You notice his arms and legs were holding so close together was for a better balance. When he was standing on one leg, his tension was all on that one leg to support the weight of his whole body.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[LBDaoist]

You guys have not yet "got" what I have been saying. Non-Breath based Qigong means just that. No attention, modification, or otherwise is given to the breath. Breathing is natural and that's it.

 

The point that I am trying to get across is that at some point during the practice of qigong, the practitioner has to focus on the breathing. It is one of the first steps along the path. The example I offered was that a person needs to crawl before they can walk. The muscles need to be built up. In the same way, the mind needs to become acclimated to the breath before the deeper, internal practices can be grasped.

 

The reason I'm even in this discussion is an attempt to keep people without basic experience from being misled. Internal circulation detached from the breath is a very high level practice. On my own journey, I spent a lot of time reading some fairly high level manuals like "marrow and brain washing" and tried to practice it without the necessary foundation. By the time I found a master and began training under him, I had to unlearn a lot. Not only that, my beliefs about what I thought I knew got in the way because I was trying to fit what I was being taught into that previous structure I had come up with on my own.

 

When I see comments in this thread along the lines of, "Qigong does not have to involve breathing." I feel the need to jump in and clarify things.

[Baguakid]

OK. This is high level of Chi Kung with the muscles contracted and must be done with deep breathing. He was showing how to balance himself. To balance oneself requires muscle contraction to control all the muscles in the body. You notice his arms and legs were holding so close together was for a better balance. When he was standing on one leg, his tension was all on that one leg to support the weight of his whole body.

 

Well, yes, this is a higher level "Neigong" exercise. It has no breathing component associated with it. His weight is concentrated on one leg, the other leg, or both at any one time but his muscles are not contracted the way you think. Actually they are as relaxed as he can make them.

 

How do I know. This is one of my teachers from Shanghai. His sir-name is Zhu. One of his teachers was Wang Haoda (a Wu stylist who has passed). The event was put on by Rose Oliver, a woman from England who formed The Double Dragon Aliance with her husband who has also passed.

 

http://cn.doubledragonalliance.com/

 

This video was shot and loaded by me.

 

The so-called "style" is Embryonic Qigong (neigong) which comes from how the body is formed (looks like a Baby in the Womb.

 

The main purpose of this Qigong/Neigong is detoxifying, removing dampness, among others.

 

This qigong/neigong has nothing to do with breath.

[Baguakid]

The point that I am trying to get across is that at some point during the practice of qigong, the practitioner has to focus on the breathing. It is one of the first steps along the path. The example I offered was that a person needs to crawl before they can walk. The muscles need to be built up. In the same way, the mind needs to become acclimated to the breath before the deeper, internal practices can be grasped.

 

The reason I'm even in this discussion is an attempt to keep people without basic experience from being misled. Internal circulation detached from the breath is a very high level practice. On my own journey, I spent a lot of time reading some fairly high level manuals like "marrow and brain washing" and tried to practice it without the necessary foundation. By the time I found a master and began training under him, I had to unlearn a lot. Not only that, my beliefs about what I thought I knew got in the way because I was trying to fit what I was being taught into that previous structure I had come up with on my own.

 

When I see comments in this thread along the lines of, "Qigong does not have to involve breathing." I feel the need to jump in and clarify things.

 

 

Yes, while I also read books from YJM (muscle tendon changing and marrow and brain washing) but I did not try to learn from these books. I used them as reference books.

 

One of my first Chinese teachers was Cai SongFang who's Qigong style is alignment based. Nothing to do with breath (in cultivating Qi). None at all. In addition to teacher Cai's instruction I also found that Tony Ho uses the same alignment based technique to cultivate Qi, also not using breath AT ALL in this Qigong.

 

On the other hand, I've also learned breath based qigong sets from Share K Lew's style, from GM Doo Wai's style, some forced breath based sets from a medical qigong source, along with the neigong styles I learned while living in China, and some I've even forgot (Da Mo Yi Jin Jing, Tai Qi Qigong in 18 forms, Crane Qigong, etc).

 

I am not disputing that breath based Qigong is powerful and fully valid as a source of cultivating Qi. It clearly is. I still maintain, however, because I've been directly exposed to it, that there are non-breath based Qigong systems which are just as powerful and valid with have absolutely nothing to do with breath in Qi cultivation.

 

I would be interested to hear why you think that there has to be a mind/breath component to qigong before a student can advance to a higher level.

 

BTW, I practice Qigong daily from both breath based and alignment based systems.

Edited August 13, 2011 by Baguakid

[mjjbecker]

 

I am not disputing that breath based Qigong is powerful and fully valid as a source of cultivating Qi. It clearly is. I still maintain, however, because I've been directly exposed to it, that there are non-breath based Qigong systems which are just as powerful and valid with have absolutely nothing to do with breath in Qi cultivation.

 

 

Absolutely. The facts are there for anyone willing to see them.

[johndoe2012]

Edited December 9, 2011 by chris d

[mjjbecker]

'Chidragon',

 

You said:

 

The Chinese Difinition of Chi Kung Let's hear the Chinese point of view.

 

And

 

BTW If you haven't sensed that the intention of this thread was to tell the Chinese side of the story, then I'm so sorry. However, if the westerner stories are going to be presented here again, then it would be defeated to whole purpose of this thread.

 

Then you said:

 

FYI...

My conclusion of this thread did not come the Chinese literature. As I say before, I did not believe any of it. It is because the Chinese only say what it is and it works; all the given reasons for the "WHY" do not make any sense. For being an engineer, I have tell myself there got to be a scientific explanation for Chi Kung. Then, I read and read and just cannot come to a conclusion from the Chinese materials. I told myself, I have to look else where like into the western science world. They are full of scientific information that might help me to draw to some kind of conclusion.

 

So I asked:

 

Why then did you title this thread 'The Chinese Definition of Chi Kung'?

 

I'm still waiting for you to answer this question.

[LBDaoist]

I would be interested to hear why you think that there has to be a mind/breath component to qigong before a student can advance to a higher level.

 

In my experience the metaphor of "breathing" is the easiest thing for a student to grasp and apply to the internal processes of the body. All of the organs have their own "breath" and their own "respiratory rate". If not the breath, the other internal sensation that comes close is "pulse" or "heart beat". Just as the heart beats, the organs also beat with their own pulse.

 

Respiration is simply the easiest metaphor for the mind to grasp. So much of qigong, especially in the beginning before a strong flow has been established, visualization and imagination are key to the process.

 

Without breathing and/or respiration, how do you guide the student to the sensations that they are looking for?

[ChiDragon]

Well, yes, this is a higher level "Neigong" exercise. It has no breathing component associated with it. His weight is concentrated on one leg, the other leg, or both at any one time but his muscles are not contracted the way you think. Actually they are as relaxed as he can make them.

 

How do I know. This is one of my teachers from Shanghai. His sir-name is Zhu. One of his teachers was Wang Haoda (a Wu stylist who has passed). The event was put on by Rose Oliver, a woman from England who formed The Double Dragon Aliance with her husband who has also passed.

 

http://cn.doubledragonalliance.com/

 

This video was shot and loaded by me.

 

The so-called "style" is Embryonic Qigong (neigong) which comes from how the body is formed (looks like a Baby in the Womb.

 

The main purpose of this Qigong/Neigong is detoxifying, removing dampness, among others.

 

This qigong/neigong has nothing to do with breath.

 

A practitioner of the highest level of qigong/neigong has a very high physical strength. He may look very relaxed and poised. However, one cannot tell how much force he was applying into he muscles. You see he moves are very smooth and poised; it was all done by muscle control. In order to keep in the poised position, he was use his inner Jin. I don't know how many time I have to say it, in order to Fa Jin the muscle has to contracted. Without deep breathing, one cannot contract the muscles to FA Jin.

 

For him to stand on one leg without any muscle contraction is impossible. Have you ever touch his leg muscles while standing on one leg...??? If you did, it should fill like a rock.

 

 

PS....

There is one thing that bothers me in your input that you had practice Chi Kung for 20+ years and your health is still improving. Can you elaborated little more on that like what kind of breathing did you do while practicing.... ???

[ChiDragon]

'Chidragon',

 

Why then did you title this thread 'The Chinese Definition of Chi Kung'?

I'm still waiting for you to answer this question.

 

I used that for the title because that was the original source; and it was to prove my point that Chi Kung involves abdominal breathing. That was what Chi Kung is all about. Now-a-days, people are using this term very loosely. I just want to straight it out so it won't be so confusing.

 

The things I said that I don't believe was the Chinese explanation about Chi Kung was not very scientific. Therefore, I want to find the missing link to explain why it works from the western science.

 

 

PS....

May I have to pleasure to find out from you? Have you ever practiced Chi Kung...???

Edited August 13, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

And no the leg doesn't feel rock solid when you stand on one leg balanced and rooted.

 

You had said it all.

 

My question to you is how can the leg muscles feel rock solid without being contracted....???

 

PS...

How long have you been practicing Chi Kung...???

Edited August 13, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Interesting tell us more.

Do we all agree that breathing has to be natural...??? If so, what is the natural way to breathe...??? To me, to breathe natural is to breathe in-out, in-out, in-out.....etc.

 

If one breathes in, then 50% out; in, then 40% out; in...etc. It was not normal.

 

My rationale for the objection of this kind of breathing is because of the unnatural pattern.

We want to breathe as smooth as possible such as inhale then exhale, inhale then exhale. It requires no thinking. So the mind can only concentrate on just one simple rhythm. If one has to breathe in an irregular pattern, the mind will be distracted by keeping track of the amount of the air to be exhaled.

 

The purpose to exhale was to get rid of the poison gas, carbon dioxide, from the body. We want to let it out ASAP, but why should we let only a certain percentage out and have the rest of the poison gas stays inside the body. Besides, when we do a full exhalation, there are still some residues of oxygen and carbon dioxide left inside the lungs anyway.

 

The best breathing method is to breathe in as much air as possible that the lung allows. Then exhale the carbon dioxide as much as possible. BTW Healing takes place in the tissues by mitosis anyway. Mitosis use the oxygen that we breathed in but not by the breathing pattern. What is the purpose of breathing in an irregular pattern just for five minutes a day....??? I don't see any significant value or benefit in his method.

[Birch]

Well, I'll go back to the example of panic attacks.

One of the ways to cure one mid-panic is to reduce the amount of oxygen taken in (hence the old breathing into a paper bag or one's hands "technique")

I speculate that the ratio of oxygen/CO2 in the body at any given time influences the overall state (includes emotions) which might be why people looking to experience a state of calm will do whatever breathing goes with it. I think there are a lot of different breathing techniques out there that all have their effects that are pretty consistent.

I only know and use 1 (belly breathing) when I do it consciously.

 

The other thing I do is MCO which is not breath driven. It's awareness/attention driven.

[ChiDragon]

I see something got loose and lost here. There is a nuance between Chi Kung and Nei Kung but now-a-days people are using these two terms too loosely.

 

The original purposes were:

Chi Kung: The original intent was on the contraction on breathing.

Nei Kung: The original intent was on the contraction on inner strength.

 

Even though both of them accomplish the same result but the intent was different. It may not make any difference in one's thinking but it's good to know the distinction of intent.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[ChiDragon]

Well the question is what it will cause. Since after the 10% you breath normal for

a time and not all the time. Things are did because of a reason, and I am curios about the reason from your standpoint. The % is to introduce something- but what?

The thing is this Lineage has for different sets different % sequences.

When you look each time the CO2 amount is different.

 

Do you think it is to altering the concious?

 

Q

Yes, it does altering the conscious due to reduction in the availability of oxygen for the body cells. In addition, instead of just concentrate on the breathing, now, an extra factor was introduced to the breathing pattern. The pattern was not one smooth flow of breath but the pattern was forced to be changed during the middle of exhalation which causing the mind to be more unconscious than conscious on the breathing. Therefore, my main objection for the percentage exhalation method was causing the normal breathing pattern to be broken.

Edited August 13, 2011 by ChiDragon

[mjjbecker]

[ChiDragon]

Peace.......

Edited August 13, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Aetherous]

Oh man, he pulled out the definition of definition!