[TTC Study] Chapter 59 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[GOOWDAY]

se 啬:

 

Somebody is sparing of things, but he still can share things to other people.

 

lin 吝:

 

Somebody is sparing of things, and he will never share things to other people.

[GOOWDAY]

治人、事天,

莫若啬,

夫为啬，

是谓早服；

早服，

谓之重积德。

重积德，

则无不克......

 

As a king,

When he leads people and serves heaven,

Nothing better than to do SE,

To do SE,

So can make them soon comply.

They soon comply,

Because they thought the king is very care about reserve DE.

Very care about reserve DE,

Then nothing won't overcome......

[Marblehead]

Yes. By being sparing we can acquire an excess and this excess can then be given to those in need. This applies to material things as well as psychological things.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 59

1. Ruling a country with natural endowments,

2. It was nothing like preserving a good health.

3. Thus only preserving a good health,

4. It was said to be an early preparation.

5. Preparation was said to be serious accumulation of virtue.

6. Accumulation of virtue then it's invincible.

7. If one is invincible, then it's difficult to evaluate one's ultimate power.

8. Not knowing one's ultimate power, then one is able to assume the responsibility of a country;

9. And by protecting a country, thus that will be long lasting,

10.It was said to be ineradicable,

11.And that was the principle of existentialism.

 

Chapter 59

1. 治人事天，

2. 莫若嗇。

3. 夫唯嗇，

4. 是謂早服；

5. 早服謂之重積德；

6. 重積德則無不克；

7. 無不克則莫知其極；

8. 莫知其極，可以有國；

9. 有國之母，可以長久；

10. 是謂深根固柢，

11. 長生久視之道。

Edited August 9, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Chapter 59

 

Not bad. No specific comment to this one.

[on the path]

CHAPTER 59

In serving Heaven and dealing with all things,

know a balance and have restraint.

In having restraint know the natural order.

In knowing the natural order, be at one with the Dao.

Being at one with the Dao, one knows how to care for all

things without bias or preference.

And so, the natural order is not upset.

Man interferes with the natural order, and

so he makes problems for himself.

Too much kindness is no good.

Nature takes care of all things and so man should not interfere.

For it will only cause problems and imbalances.

Man is the only creature that interferes.

The Ten Thousand Things rise and fall naturally, and so they are balanced.

Strengthen the body and simplify your life, and so pass on a healthy

body to the next generation.

For the weaker the body, the more atrophy will set in, in the generations to come.

The weaker the body, the more it is prone to disease, imbalance and malformation.

 

Just put this up for comparison

[Marblehead]

 

Man interferes with the natural order, and

so he makes problems for himself.

 

I like this. Actually, I know this. Been there, done that.

[ChiDragon]

I like this. Actually, I know this. Been there, done that.

I know you did trigger the A-bomb.....

[Marblehead]

I know you did trigger the A-bomb.....

 

Hehehe. No, I wasn't that high up on the ladder.

[dust]

TT has inspired me to look beyond simple fuzzy words and phrases.

So many nonsense translations of 早服 it's unbelievable.

 

return before straying - Wu

giving up one's own ideas - Feng

responding quickly - Addiss

early submit - Henricks

 

Well..none of them make much sense.

 

It seems fairly simple. If we translate se 嗇 in its original meaning -- storing rice, rather than frugality -- everything else follows quite nicely..

 

 

紿人事天莫若嗇 In governing people there is nothing as good as storing rice;

夫唯嗇是以早穫 Storing rice is managed with a timely harvest;

早服是胃重積惪 A timely harvest is called the virtue of a heavy crop;

重積惪則亡不克 The virtue of a heavy crop is undefeatable;

亡不克則莫智丌恒 Being undefeatable, none knows its extent;

莫智丌恒可以又域 None knowing its extent, one can have the realm;

又域之母可以長舊 Having the mother of the realm, one can last long;

是胃深槿固氐 This is called the Way of having deep roots, a solid foundation,

長生舊見之道也 Long life, and lasting vision

[Marblehead]

Good run of the concept. I see no problem with it.

 

BTW Red Pine uses: nothing surpasses economy

[dawei]

TT has inspired me to look beyond simple fuzzy words and phrases.

So many nonsense translations of 早服 it's unbelievable.

 

return before straying - Wu

giving up one's own ideas - Feng

responding quickly - Addiss

early submit - Henricks

 

Well..none of them make much sense.

 

It seems fairly simple. If we translate se 嗇 in its original meaning -- storing rice, rather than frugality -- everything else follows quite nicely..

 

Interesting take

 

Lok Sang Ho's translation notes:

 

In the original, one word 嗇was used to describe the example to follow. Unfortunately, in modern usage the word is always associated with吝嗇, which means being stingy and frugal. This more common usage of the word does not, however, fit in with the rest of the chapter, and it is doubtful whether Laozi is preaching at all the virtues of frugality here. On the other hand, the more ancient usage of the word 嗇is farmer. The meaning then is very clear.

 

Moss Roberts wrote in his translation:

 

The interpretation of this stanza depends on the word se in line 3, “having in store.” Se means “reserving grain” but has usually been read as a metaphor for political control based on discipline over one's mental and physical powers.

This has been the prevailing interpretation in both Chinese commentaries and English translations. Following Wang Bi's comment, however, Yin Zhenhuan develops the idea that se refers to giving priority to agriculture. The reference in line 13 to the fruitful earth supports Yin's interpretation. Su Che does not follow Wang Bi's agricultural explanation and suggests that the qualities described in lines 14–17 of the previous stanza are instances of “having in store.” In line 1 theword “heaven” (tian) is often interpreted naturalistically, as it is in the Zhuangzi.

This stanza is in the Guodian text, where line 1 has “provide” (ji) rather than “rule” (zhi). “Provide” supports the interpretation of se (restraint) as se in the sense of “gathering in the harvest”—over the interpretation of Han Feizi, who reads se as garnering or conserving (the leader's) virtue or spiritual powers. The present translation, however, keeps to the received wording because of the surrounding stanzas, which contain advice to those in power.

Hanfeizi (probably the earliest commentator on LZ), wrote a long commentary on this chapter and focuses on sparing/saving/conserving in order to not exhaust one's Spirit or virtues. He uses the body (not farming) as a metaphor for the state: One cannot maintain their body by exhausting it; one maintains it by conserving its essence. In the same manner, a ruler is "maintaining the mother of the state" ; This mother is the WAY.

Heshang Gong appears to follow the idea of forbearance. To order a country, one needs to be sparing or hold back your vitality and not squander it.

Wang Bi took the idea of forbearance and used the metaphor of a farmer...

[dust]

Interesting! Well, I didn't think I was the first one to make this deduction, but I didn't know who else had.

 

Economy, frugality, etc are OK, they are not far off what I'm saying, but they haven't quite gotten the point: that many of these chapters are directly applicable instructions for governing a country.

 

As far as the Guodian (which is what I was translating), the first character, 紿, which Moss Roberts says means "store", is used in 64

 

為之於丌亡又也 Act when something doesn’t exist yet,

紿之於丌未亂 Control it before it turns to disorder;

 

and I think it pretty surely means "control" here.. though "provide" could make sense

 

I should have noted: I think that the "mother of the realm" would refer to food. The land, the crop, the sustenance that people need...if one controls this, one controls all, no?

[ChiDragon]

為之於丌亡又也 Act when something doesn’t exist yet,

紿之於丌未亂 Control it before it turns to disorder;

 

Sorry, I've investigated further and came up with such evaluation:

 

丌: 1. 古同“其”。

丌 is an ancient character for “其”.

Ref: 丌

 

紿: 5. 古同“诒”，欺骗；欺诈。

紿, in the ancient, is a synonym for “诒”: cheat, fool, pretend

Ref: 紿

 

To put the phrases in proper perspective:

為之於其無有也: Act when something doesn’t exist yet,

紿之於其未亂: Deceive one before one was confused

[dawei]

 

Sorry, I've investigated further and came up with such evaluation:

 

丌: 1. 古同“其”。

丌 is an ancient character for “其”.

Ref: 丌

 

Hendricks shows this... and your translation is exactly the same as Dustybeiing... What do you want to say?

 

紿: 5. 古同“诒”，欺骗；欺诈。

紿, in the ancient, is a synonym for “诒”: cheat, fool, pretend

Ref: 紿

 

Maybe try 治... this is the most accepted substitute among WESTERN AND EASTERN SINOLOGIST...

 

To put the phrases in proper perspective:

為之於其無有也: Act when something doesn’t exist yet,

紿之於其未亂: Deceive one before one was confused

 

The first is exactly as dustybeijing wrote...

 

The second is english nonsense. Please research more.

 

So that means either the word or translation is wrong.

 

 

HENRICKS: Establish order before it turns into chaos

 

NATIVE SCHOLAR: Keep order before disorder sets in

[Taoist Texts]

This chapter is a logical chain of reasoning, albeit with unobvious logical connection between the links

 

治人事天莫若嗇。In governing people and serving heavens there is nothing like good harvesting

夫唯嗇，是謂早服；good harvesting means early victory 蚤服

早服謂之重積德；early victory means accumulation of De

重積德則無不克；accumulated De means invincibility

無不克則莫知其極；invincibility means no limit

莫知其極，可以有國；no limit means getting the country

有國之母，可以長久；getting the country’ mother means longevity

是謂深根固柢，longevity means deep roots strong base

長生久視之道。 deep roots strong base means Dao of long life eternal vision

 

To simplify it further

 

治人事天=>嗇/穑=>蚤服=>重積德=>無不克=>莫知其極=>有國=>有國之母=>長久=>深根固柢=>長生久視

 

General connection of ‘managing people, serving Heaven’ with invincibility, De and ‘having the state’ is broadly discussed in

 

《大戴禮記 - Da Dai Li Ji》

[Han (206 BC - 220)]

 

少閒:

乃有商履代興。商履循禮法，以觀天子，天子不說，則嫌於死。成湯卒受天命，不忍天下粒食之民刈戮，不得以疾死，故乃放移夏桀，散亡其佐。乃遷姒姓于杞。發厥明德，順民天心嗇地，作物配天，制典慈民。咸合諸侯，作八政，命於總章。服禹功以脩舜緒，為副于天。粒食之民昭然明視，民明教，通于四海，海之外肅慎、北發、渠搜、氐、羌來服

 

When planning the sacrifices – observe Heaven, Heaven does not speak - catastrophe is suspected. Tang, the first ruler of the Shang dynasty received Heavenly mandate, would not tolerate the grain-eaters being exterminated…. displaced Jie of Xia* …deployed his spiritual De, settled the obedient people in harvest lands 穡地 according to Heaven’s heart, matched crops 作物 with Heaven’s will, … the grain-eaters (peasants) saw his spiritual eye 明視 on them …. to the four seas and beyond, all the barbarians submitted.

 

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jie_of_Xia

 

Jie with a halberd, representing oppression, and sitting on two ladies

[dust]

I don't disagree...but my translation takes one character in particular from the Guodian that I believe is different:

 

服 replaced with 穫 / 获

 

Though it actually looks like the character in the GD has a left-hand 彳 component

[Taoist Texts]

I don't disagree...but my translation takes one character in particular from the Guodian that I believe is different:

 

服 replaced with 穫 / 获

 

Though it actually looks like the character in the GD has a left-hand 彳 component

thats actually pretty good because an early harvest of own crops would mean the ability to wage wars on the neighnours as was the wont of archaic agricultural societies.

[Taoist Texts]

Proceeding to explore the unfamiliar nomenclature in the middle of the chain, we will look at the logic of 蚤服=>重積德. Why an early (easy, peaceful) victory should lead to accretion of De? Simply because war is a bad thing and ending it early saves lives, consequently increasing one’s moral capital

 

兵者，凶器也。爭者，逆德也

http://ctext.org/school-of-the-military?searchu=%E5%BE%B7&page=4#n43521

 

‘fighting is contrary to De’

 

Further, lets look at the quote

 

神莫知其極。昭知天下，通於四極。

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E8%8E%AB%E7%9F%A5%E5%85%B6%E6%A5%B5#n48525

 

proving that ‘the limit’ in question means the borders of the state, therefore the objective of a ruler desiring to establish a longevous dynasty is to expand his empire limitlessly to the four seas, ‘from sea to shining sea’.

 

The next moot expression is ‘the mother of the state’ 有國之母 not attested elsewhere, however, there is a formula

 

陛下父事天，母事地，

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E5%A4%A9%E6%AF%8D&page=2#n66989

‘the emperor makes Heaven into his father, and the Earth his mother’, which means that the mother of the state is the whole wide Earth, upon the entirety of which the emperor has to establish his domain

 

The last 3 links of the logical chain summarize the desired results:

 

長久=>深根固柢=>長生久視

 

Longevous and lasting 長久 is actually a contraction of a popular formula Heaven is longevous, Earth is lasting 天長地久 meaning that the dynasty will live as long as these two, if Heaven is properly served and the entire Earth conquered. In that case the state will be strong as in

 

禮者，所以固國家，定社稷，使君無失其民者也

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E5%9B%BA%E5%9B%BD#n53533

 

the sacrifices make the state strong, the altars of grain and Earth stable, so the ruler would not lose his people.

 

Lastly, the expression 長生久視 ‘long life and lasting vision’ was never intended for an individual but meant rather the long life of the dynasty and its state. ‘The lasting vision’ here has long baffled sinologists unable to explain what does it mean exactly. Turns out it meant the combined gaze of the emperor and the Heaven on their subjects as above: 明視 spiritual gaze.

[dawei]

I don't disagree...but my translation takes one character in particular from the Guodian that I believe is different:

 

服 replaced with 穫 / 获

 

Though it actually looks like the character in the GD has a left-hand 彳 component

 

The Beida text also has 服; The Wang Bi has it in ch. 34, 53, 59, 80. It looks like Han Feizi uses the character too but his interpretation is to mean the Sage conserves his essence and so 'submits [to Dao] from the start'.

 

This is interesting, 穫 / 获 , but I see Wang Bi never uses it.

 

Another possible one I found is 備 / 备 , [ Link ] but Wang Bi never uses it. This has another war connotation instead of harvest.

[dust]

Proceeding to explore the unfamiliar nomenclature in the middle of the chain, we will look at the logic of 蚤服=>重積德. Why an early (easy, peaceful) victory should lead to accretion of De? Simply because war is a bad thing and ending it early saves lives, consequently increasing one’s moral capital

 

兵者，凶器也。爭者，逆德也

http://ctext.org/school-of-the-military?searchu=%E5%BE%B7&page=4#n43521

 

‘fighting is contrary to De’

 

Yes. Good.

 

 

Further, lets look at the quote

 

神莫知其極。昭知天下，通於四極。

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E8%8E%AB%E7%9F%A5%E5%85%B6%E6%A5%B5#n48525

 

proving that ‘the limit’ in question means the borders of the state, therefore the objective of a ruler desiring to establish a longevous dynasty is to expand his empire limitlessly to the four seas, ‘from sea to shining sea’.

 

Proving? From the same search page, just below:

 

蒼蒼之天，莫知其極

The blue sky, none knows its extent / limit

 

 

 

Han Feizi also doesn't necessarily agree with you. (The following translation is mostly WK Liao's, but the blue part is improved by me, I think):

 

凡有國而後亡之，有身而後殃之，不可謂能有其國，能保其身。夫能有其國，必能安其社稷， 能保其身，必能終其天年，而後可謂能有其國，能保其身矣。夫能有其國，保其身者，必且體道。體道則其智深， 其智深則其會遠，其會遠，眾人莫能見其所極。唯夫能令人不見其事極，不見〔其〕事極者為保其身，有其國。 故曰：「莫知其極。莫知其極則可以有國。」

 

He who has the state and loses it, or has a body and brings disaster to it, cannot be said to have truly had the state, or protected the body. He who has the state must be able to keep agriculture secure; he who can protect the body must be able to live out his years as decreed by Heaven; then can he be said to truly have the state and protect the body. Indeed, who can have possession of his state and keep the safety of the body, always holds fast to Tao. If he holds fast to Tao, his wisdom is deep. If his wisdom is deep, his comprehension is far and wide. If his comprehension is far and wide, then the masses of the people cannot know its limit. It is only by realizing the true path that one can prevent people from seeing the limits of one's own affairs. Who can prevent people from seeing the limits of his own affairs, can keep the safety of his body and have possession of his state. Hence the saying: "If no one knows his limit, one can have possession of the state."

Edited December 2, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dust]

The Beida text also has 服; The Wang Bi has it in ch. 34, 53, 59, 80. It looks like Han Feizi uses the character too but his interpretation is to mean the Sage conserves his essence and so 'submits [to Dao] from the start'.

 

This is interesting, 穫 / 获 , but I see Wang Bi never uses it.

 

Another possible one I found is 備 / 备 , [ Link ] but Wang Bi never uses it. This has another war connotation instead of harvest.

 

All of which are later, of course..

 

You're right, most of the commentary takes it as a war thing.

 

As I've just seen from Han Feizi, he talks of grain/agriculture. Protecting the rice.

 

Looking at the GD character we should be fairly sure that it's not 服 -- EDIT: but it does look a lot like 备...so...ah..

 

Edited December 2, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Taoist Texts]

Yes. Good.

 

 

 

Proving? From the same search page, just below:

 

蒼蒼之天，莫知其極

The blue sky, none knows its extent / limit

 

my point was that limit here means some kind of a spatial border, which your quote bears out. The Heaven is limitless above, the mother of all empires is limitless below, a match that will last long.

[dawei]

Have a look at the GD character and you should be fairly sure that it's not 服 -- but definitely has the grain 禾 radical in it:

 

QQ截图20141202154036.png

 

Yes, I agree that 服 seems to not be the original.

 

Henrick's "early submit" is based on 早服 , although his translation uses 早備. The first pair below does not have 備 in line 2 in the GD but most feel it is the same character as the next line pair reads. I also tend to feel he follows Han Feizi a little bit (early submit vs submit from the start);

 

Hendricks provides on comments on whether it should read "Prepare early" 早備 or "early submit" 早服, and in the end feels that "the characters were pronounced almost the same in antiquity"... so they could be a phonetic loan, as this is apparently the case in other Guodian texts (he names a few).

 

 

紿人事天莫若嗇

夫唯嗇是以早[備]

早備是胃重積惪