Is Pineal Gland Activation more important than Heart Mind Activation?

[tulku]

Our Astral body is connected by a silver cord to our pineal gland.

 

If you can't do astral lucid dreaming, there is no way you can achieve enlightenment.

[Vmarco]

More than one enlightened master including Mantak Chia and many other Indian Masters have talked about the benefits of the anja chakra third eye meditation in the process of enlightenment.

 

The third eye meditation is supposed to bring you into contact with your psychic/lunar body while the heart-mind meditation will only bring you into contact with your emotional body. This explains why many siddhas have been able to cultivate their siddhi powers when doing the third-eye meditation.

 

I do not know who you are, but I do not think you have the credentials to rebuke the many spiritual masters of the past who have performed miracles with siddhi powers developed from third-eye meditations.

 

Unless you can prove to us that doing heart-mind meditations can unlock the latent powers hidden in man.

 

Using the "horizontal view to look at chakras equally" is totally hog-wash. Every spiritual master has talked about how the crown chakra is more important than the heart chakra.

 

But here comes along an unknown heretic who is arguing that the heart chakra is more important than the crown chakra.

 

I think the unknown heretic should prove that the heart chakra is more important than the crown chakra with displays of siddhi powers.

 

 

So, you have not read my 2007 book on the 3 barycenters and the Nine Siddha Perfections,...or my book on full spectrum consciousness,...both on amazon.com,... no problem,...we can stick with my post. Where did I say that Third Eye meditations were unimportant? Or that Heart meditations were more important? I didn't.

 

What I said was, enlightenment is unattainable without the Heart-Mind. Heart chakra meditation by itself will not access enlightenment, nor, in most cases, access Heart-Mind,...although it does help with developing Real Emotions.

 

What are Real Emotions? EJ Gold put it like this:

 

"Real emotions are communicated by outward radiation of the mood, and originate through an awakened emotional center, which has no reverberational effects in other parts of the body, and is not necessary to verbally communicate the emotion.

 

Positive and negative emotion are subjective mental states occuring in reflex, and must be verbalized and elaborately described, explained, rationalized and mentally communicated and understood.

Those who can produce real emotions in themselves never communicate about emotional states in mental language; they just radiate the emotions, allowing the emotion to speak for itself.

 

In the presence of someone who is able to produce real emotion, we experience feelings - perhaps for the first time. Very often, someone who has awakened the higher Emotional Body and who has learned to radiate emotions becomes a celebrity-guru, and people gather like cattle to bathe in the higher emotions. These higher emotions are often mistaken for some mysterious cosmic force or interpreted in some pseudo-religious way, but really they are just emotions.

 

What a pity that human beings are so unaccustomed to emotion that they feel compelled to submissively huddle together in the warmth of the emotional radiation of someone just as mechanical as they are, but who happened to have activated, by accident, the higher Emotional Body."

 

No need for an "unknown heretic should prove that the heart chakra is more important than the crown chakra with displays of siddhi powers" since the "unknown heretic did not claim such. However, I did say that the Heart-Mind was Higher,...which you asssumed meant something that I didn't say. The Heart chakra, by itself is not Higher. I attempted to clarify that with the Star of David analogy. The Heart chakra by itself vibrates to green. A vibrant Green is not enlightenment. For some level of actual enlightenment, the frequencies of the three barycenters spin together at the Heartcenter, which uncovers Heart-Mind, the Higher Mind.

 

Thank goodness for heretics,...Buddha, Tilopa, Vajrayogini. The world would be a much more ignorant place without them.

 

Mantak Chia has of course done some great work,...I've used it,...but also include Light, Color, and a Vajrayana perspective, for faster, clearer, easier access. A horizontal view of the chakras is quite helpful in respect to what I mentioned about the 'What is Light' thread. Ultimately, everything is the samething,...usually just a slight shift in perspective to make it visible. Everything is light,...the frequencies have corresponding colors. Fortunately, heretics don't get tethered to dogma.

 

V

Edited August 10, 2011 by Vmarco

[tulku]

So, you have not read my 2007 book on the 3 barycenters and the Nine Siddha Perfections,...or my book on full spectrum consciousness,...both on amazon.com,... no problem,...we can stick with my post. Where did I say that Third Eye meditations were unimportant? Or that Heart meditations were more important? I didn't.

 

What I said was, enlightenment is unattainable without the Heart-Mind. Heart chakra meditation by itself will not access enlightenment, nor, in most cases, access Heart-Mind,...although it does help with developing Real Emotions.

 

What are Real Emotions? EJ Gold put it like this:

 

"Real emotions are communicated by outward radiation of the mood, and originate through an awakened emotional center, which has no reverberational effects in other parts of the body, and is not necessary to verbally communicate the emotion.

 

Positive and negative emotion are subjective mental states occuring in reflex, and must be verbalized and elaborately described, explained, rationalized and mentally communicated and understood.

Those who can produce real emotions in themselves never communicate about emotional states in mental language; they just radiate the emotions, allowing the emotion to speak for itself.

 

In the presence of someone who is able to produce real emotion, we experience feelings - perhaps for the first time. Very often, someone who has awakened the higher Emotional Body and who has learned to radiate emotions becomes a celebrity-guru, and people gather like cattle to bathe in the higher emotions. These higher emotions are often mistaken for some mysterious cosmic force or interpreted in some pseudo-religious way, but really they are just emotions.

 

What a pity that human beings are so unaccustomed to emotion that they feel compelled to submissively huddle together in the warmth of the emotional radiation of someone just as mechanical as they are, but who happened to have activated, by accident, the higher Emotional Body."

 

No need for an "unknown heretic should prove that the heart chakra is more important than the crown chakra with displays of siddhi powers" since the "unknown heretic did not claim such. However, I did say that the Heart-Mind was Higher,...which you asssumed meant something that I didn't say. The Heart chakra, by itself is not Higher. I attempted to clarify that with the Star of David analogy. The Heart chakra by itself vibrates to green. A vibrant Green is not enlightenment. For some level of actual enlightenment, the frequencies of the three barycenters spin together at the Heartcenter, which uncovers Heart-Mind, the Higher Mind.

 

Thank goodness for heretics,...Buddha, Tilopa, Vajrayogini. The world would be a much more ignorant place without them.

 

Mantak Chia has of course done some great work,...I've used it,...but also include Light, Color, and a Vajrayana perspective, for faster, clearer, easier access. A horizontal view of the chakras is quite helpful in respect to what I mentioned about the 'What is Light' thread. Ultimately, everything is the samething,...usually just a slight shift in perspective to make it visible. Everything is light,...the frequencies have corresponding colors. Fortunately, heretics don't get tethered to dogma.

 

V

 

The real Heart-Mind is emptiness and the void. Not emotions.

 

I am not interested in emotions. I am only interested in seeking out, interact with and becoming one with the emptiness and the void.

 

Emotions, regardless of how positive they are, will only get in the way of experiencing and becoming one with the void.

 

There is no such thing as "heart-mind". There is only such a thing as a Higher Mind.

 

The Mind that has never been polluted by the descent of the Soul from the upper dimensions to the lower dimensions.

 

Introducing a new term into the world for the sake of selling books doesn't make the term real unless the new terminology aligns itself or improves the existing spiritual principles of the Universe.

 

So far, you have only talked about emotions.

 

You have touched on nothing regarding the void, the emptiness, the Source. This is hardly aligning or improving on the real existing spiritual principles of the Universe.

Edited August 10, 2011 by tulku

[Vmarco]

From what I understand, Man has more than 7 chakras. Like 12 or 19 chakras or something. Those spiritual chakras can only be unlocked and accessed by meditation.

 

What this prove however is that since there are higher chakras which can't be unlocked unless you do work themselves.

 

It also proves the well-accepted fact in every tradition that the higher the chakra, the more important the chakra is.

 

Sure, one could look at it as Higher Chakras are more important chakras,...of course, what is higher,...higher from a physically upright position,...higher by the number of vortices,...higher by color?

 

I suppose there could be a million chakras,...but only 9 points connect it all,...all phemonema. In fact,...if you understood light, you would be cognizant that nothing is greater or less than 9,...Nine is the first reflection of 0. Of course this means nothing,...but perhaps it will resonate with a future reader.

 

I think I've read every chakra book ever printed before 1984,...after '84 began a wave of professional writers filling shelves with 6 grade level info books drove off my interests. Interestingly though, I've found no chakra book with a renaissance approach,...that is, with a broad, crosscultural, crossinformational view.

 

Perhaps you wish to specialize,...remain within a narrow view. I'm not saying anything is wrong with that. The renaissance perspective lost its charm in todays society. I prefer however to get out of the box,...see things from their own perspective, instead of some predisposed notion of my sentient mind. As I often say,...most people see light as traveling 186k mps,...but from light's point of view, it travels no distance, in no time, thus has no need for speed.

 

 

V

[Vmarco]

dbl post

Edited August 10, 2011 by Vmarco

[Vmarco]

The real Heart-Mind is emptiness and the void. Not emotions.

 

 

I did not say the Heart-Mind was emotions.

 

As for "I am not interested in emotions. I am only interested in seeking out, interact with and becoming one with the emptiness and the void.'

 

Can't help you out there,...I'm not a seeker,...and oneness is some Aristotelian logic I got over about 30 years ago. There is no One without a Many, no Many without a One,...sort of like Buddha saying emptiness is form, form is emptiness.

 

 

V

[Adishakti]

Do we have the options to choose what we want to activate first?

 

Which one is more important for the process of Enlightenment?

 

The activation of the pineal gland or the activation of the heart mind?

[tulku]

Sure, one could look at it as Higher Chakras are more important chakras,...of course, what is higher,...higher from a physically upright position,...higher by the number of vortices,...higher by color?

 

I suppose there could be a million chakras,...but only 9 points connect it all,...all phemonema. In fact,...if you understood light, you would be cognizant that nothing is greater or less than 9,...Nine is the first reflection of 0. Of course this means nothing,...but perhaps it will resonate with a future reader.

 

I think I've read every chakra book ever printed before 1984,...after '84 began a wave of professional writers filling shelves with 6 grade level info books drove off my interests. Interestingly though, I've found no chakra book with a renaissance approach,...that is, with a broad, crosscultural, crossinformational view.

 

Perhaps you wish to specialize,...remain within a narrow view. I'm not saying anything is wrong with that. The renaissance perspective lost its charm in todays society. I prefer however to get out of the box,...see things from their own perspective, instead of some predisposed notion of my sentient mind. As I often say,...most people see light as traveling 186k mps,...but from light's point of view, it travels no distance, in no time, thus has no need for speed.

 

 

V

 

Lesser people than me would make plenty of snide remarks about your "wisdom" but I would prefer to let it pass.

 

I can only advise you to stop being so arrogant and search further. The only one who wish to remain within a narrow view is you.

[tulku]

I did not say the Heart-Mind was emotions.

 

As for "I am not interested in emotions. I am only interested in seeking out, interact with and becoming one with the emptiness and the void.'

 

Can't help you out there,...I'm not a seeker,...and oneness is some Aristotelian logic I got over about 30 years ago. There is no One without a Many, no Many without a One,...sort of like Buddha saying emptiness is form, form is emptiness.

 

 

V

 

Since you are not a seeker of emptiness and the void, I believe we have nothing further to talk about.

 

The emptiness, the void, dzogchen, wu wei, this is what enlightenment is and anything lesser than that is sheer folly.

[Jetsun]

Since you are not a seeker of emptiness and the void, I believe we have nothing further to talk about.

 

The emptiness, the void, dzogchen, wu wei, this is what enlightenment is and anything lesser than that is sheer folly.

 

How would you know that for sure? are you enlightened?

[tulku]

How would you know that for sure? are you enlightened?

 

Because I know too many verified spiritual teachers saying the same thing.

 

That you have to first access and interact and get past the void in order to reach Enlightenment.

 

Of course, please feel free to ignore my understanding of Enlightenment. Every person has his or her own Path.

[C T]

Because I know too many verified spiritual teachers saying the same thing.

 

That you have to first access and interact and get past the void in order to reach Enlightenment.

 

Of course, please feel free to ignore my understanding of Enlightenment. Every person has his or her own Path.

That's a valid claim.

 

In your path, what does the Void represent?

 

Good to know, i think, so we can understand where you are going with this idea of accessing this Void on the way to enlightenment.

[Birch]

Do we have the options to choose what we want to activate first?

Um, no, don't think so and I don't think there's a neat n tidy order to any of it either. Although I do think that if you focus more on certain centres then that "does stuff" but the stuff may or may not be beneficial in the short or long term. I think people forget the long term.

[tulku]

That's a valid claim.

 

In your path, what does the Void represent?

 

Good to know, i think, so we can understand where you are going with this idea of accessing this Void on the way to enlightenment.

 

Why don't you tell us what the void represents?

 

Wasn't it said that the tao that can be described isn't the real tao?

[doc benway]

Which one is more important for the process of Enlightenment?

 

The activation of the pineal gland or the activation of the heart mind?

 

Who is choosing? Who is there to activate heartmind or pituitary?

Both are always already active.... and neither exist.

 

What's most important is finding the right activator for your needs. For me, Softsheen Golden activator fits the bill in every way. Even though I ain't got no afro, it gives my silky Asian hair just the right amount of shine to tingle my pineal gland and flutter the heart-mind like ol' grand daddy's chuckle after sippin' on a sweet glass of mama's Mississippi molassses.

 

If we want to activate something, this is about the best we can hope for!

 

Great post hyok!

[C T]

Why don't you tell us what the void represents?

 

Wasn't it said that the tao that can be described isn't the real tao?

Ah my friend... it was you who pointed to the Void that needs to be traversed on the way to liberation - so it was natural to ask what and how you perceive this Void to be in order to understand where you are going with this, right?

 

I am sure we are all quite familiar with the cliches, but sometimes, when statements about the Void are made, its good to know the speaker's contextual reference. While i understand this may not describe the real article, but at least we get to hope to see the instrument of pointing. If this is not satisfactory to you, by all means just forget i was interested enough to enquire into this.

 

Peace okay?

[Vmarco]

Who is choosing? Who is there to activate heartmind or pituitary?

Both are always already active.... and neither exist.

 

If we want to activate something, this is about the best we can hope for!

 

 

Those are the comments of someone at the threshold of Uncovery,...there is nothing to discover, nothing to activate. Although many "think" it arrogant to suggest, to hope for anything is a barrier to access Heart-Mind or Special Magickal Siddha Perfections.

 

Hope is a great enemy of awakening,...hope is a desire for things to be other than they are. Hope is an anticipation of the future; thus it must arise from a predisposition, a belief, and attachment to the past. There is no access to anything that is Heart-Mind through the past.

 

Sleep is always in the past. One who awakens from sleep pivots from the present. No one, absolutely no one, ever awakens without understanding WHEN they are. The realization of WHEN dissolves all hope,...where there is no hope, there is no fear. Where there is fear, there is hope.

 

But then, only heretics can understand that.

 

V

[Informer]

More than one enlightened master including Mantak Chia and many other Indian Masters have talked about the benefits of the anja chakra third eye meditation in the process of enlightenment.

 

The third eye meditation is supposed to bring you into contact with your psychic/lunar body while the heart-mind meditation will only bring you into contact with your emotional body. This explains why many siddhas have been able to cultivate their siddhi powers when doing the third-eye meditation.

 

More importantly, the brain has many locked functions which can only be unlocked with the third-eye meditations. The brain may be thrown away after death but it doesn't mean we are not using it when we are living in the here and now.

 

The fact that the brain's many functions can be unlocked by third-eye meditations have been highlighted by many scientists and taoist masters.

 

I have yet to see any siddhi powers cultivated by doing heart-mind meditations.

 

I do not know who you are, but I do not think you have the credentials to rebuke the many spiritual masters of the past who have performed miracles with siddhi powers developed from third-eye meditations.

 

Unless you can prove to us that doing heart-mind meditations can unlock the latent powers hidden in man.

 

Using the "horizontal view to look at chakras equally" is totally hog-wash. Every spiritual master has talked about how the crown chakra is more important than the heart chakra.

 

But here comes along an unknown heretic who is arguing that the heart chakra is more important than the crown chakra.

 

I think the unknown heretic should prove that the heart chakra is more important than the crown chakra with displays of siddhi powers.

 

Otherwise, i am just going to concentrate on my anja third eye meditations for the rest of my life. Besides, I receive bliss in my forehead in some of my third-eye meditations sessions and none in my heart-area at all.

 

Then I fear that this life will be a short one for you, the heart is the energy that heals. Whatever you are thinking that you know will be incomplete at best without the heart.

 

You may be privy to some insights, but others will have no meaning.

 

Without even experiencing the heart, how can you know?

[doc benway]

 

Hope is a great enemy of awakening,...hope is a desire for things to be other than they are.

 

 

,...where there is no hope, there is no fear. Where there is fear, there is hope.

 

Well said.

There is no security.

Let go of the desire for security, which is hope.

Belief is security.

Faith is being OK with insecurity.

Faith is being OK without belief.

I know we disagree on the usage of faith, and that's OK. I find it a useful concept.

[Aetherous]

CowTao,

 

Ah my friend... it was you who pointed to the Void that needs to be traversed on the way to liberation - so it was natural to ask what and how you perceive this Void to be in order to understand where you are going with this, right?

 

I know you were asking tulku, but I'll give my answer since I was the one who brought it up in this topic...

 

The "void" that I experienced was like an energy. That's how the body and mind percieved it. It trickled and streamed down through my body, causing it to seem to vanish entirely starting from the top. The result of this vanishing wasn't necessarily a feeling of nothingness. It was more like a feeling of "this is the way things have always been" or the essential nature of all things in existence. Almost more like a feeling of coming home. Peacefulness. As if everything you see is made up of one substance, and this void energy was that substance.

 

This is just my personal experience of it, and it will only truly make sense to someone who has had a similar experience.

 

In Taoist alchemy they say a person must convert jing into qi into shen into void. Then there's the final stage of "crushing the void". My personal opinion is that when a person lives in the world and experiences the true "void that is not void" they will develop concepts regarding it.

 

For instance, I say "it's an energy" which is not entirely true, if it's the essence of all things.

 

So a person at that stage meditates in order to "crush" or destroy the concepts and lack of experience with the void/essential nature.

 

This is just the basic idea. It's not an easy thing to experience, and I can only speak on a very simple level regarding it.

[Informer]

The only way to truly transverse the void is with the heart.

 

If you find yourself in the void without heart, that is the end of it, you will think it is enlightenment, and from that perspective it is, as there is nothing left.

 

If you do make it back, there is still much work to be done or undone.

 

One last thing, the only way you know if the intuition is the intuition rather than mind tricks is by checking it with the heart.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Informer

[Aetherous]

Vmarco,

 

So, you have not read my 2007 book on the 3 barycenters and the Nine Siddha Perfections

 

Sounds interesting...I found your other book on amazon.com but not this one. Will you link me up?

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

Vmarco,

 

Sounds interesting...I found your other book on amazon.com but not this one. Will you link me up?

 

http://www.amazon.com/MC-sup2-%253c-Exploring-Freethought/dp/1425136486/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312998646&sr=1-1

 

Keep in mind, that books usually have an intent. When we see a book, it is often helpful to inquire, Who wrote this? When was it written? Why was it written? Where was it written? For what purpose was it written? The above book was partially written for the Pagan Community, and is predominately an introduction into Vajrayana Buddhism and the Short Path for that audience.

 

V

[C T]

CowTao,

 

 

 

I know you were asking tulku, but I'll give my answer since I was the one who brought it up in this topic...

 

The "void" that I experienced was like an energy. That's how the body and mind percieved it. It trickled and streamed down through my body, causing it to seem to vanish entirely starting from the top. The result of this vanishing wasn't necessarily a feeling of nothingness. It was more like a feeling of "this is the way things have always been" or the essential nature of all things in existence. Almost more like a feeling of coming home. Peacefulness. As if everything you see is made up of one substance, and this void energy was that substance.

 

This is just my personal experience of it, and it will only truly make sense to someone who has had a similar experience.

 

In Taoist alchemy they say a person must convert jing into qi into shen into void. Then there's the final stage of "crushing the void". My personal opinion is that when a person lives in the world and experiences the true "void that is not void" they will develop concepts regarding it.

 

For instance, I say "it's an energy" which is not entirely true, if it's the essence of all things.

 

So a person at that stage meditates in order to "crush" or destroy the concepts and lack of experience with the void/essential nature.

 

This is just the basic idea. It's not an easy thing to experience, and I can only speak on a very simple level regarding it.

Thank you, Scotty. Very kind of you to share your evolution into the Void.

 

You mentioned that the experience centers around experiencing a sort of condensation of substance, where outer phenomena, including the sense of oneself, seems to all dissolve into an equanimous 'something nondescript' - i am curious - do you also experience a dissipation of any sort in tandem with this onset of this 'void energy'? Like when the energy rises and becomes more acute, is it actually a condensation, or is there also a falling away of something happening and felt, riding on the one wave? Its this part of the experience that i am quite interested to explore.

 

Any further thoughts would be great!