Is Pineal Gland Activation more important than Heart Mind Activation?

[tulku]

Which one is more important for the process of Enlightenment?

 

The activation of the pineal gland or the activation of the heart mind?

[Moonbar]

Good question Tulku, ill be keeping an eye on this thread

[Vmarco]

Which one is more important for the process of Enlightenment?

 

The activation of the pineal gland or the activation of the heart mind?

 

What is important for the process? Both.

 

However, enlightenment is unattainable without Heart-Mind.

 

Imagine the two triangles of David's Star,...one pointing up (the upper 3 chakras of Yin), and one triangle pointing down (the 3 chakras of Yang),...the key is at the interlacing point,...the Heart.

 

Understanding light,...how spectra manifests into form,...is quite helpful,...in fact essential,...in realizing what you seek. So far, the 'What is Light' thread has not penetrated deeply enough yet. However, a book was mentioned as a primer for discussion,...this book has serveral graphics, the 0 in the middle, in all the graphics, is the Heart. As one is pointed to finding the 0 or source in the book, one will also uncover Heart-Mind.

 

Ascension is simply the reverse of descension,...both through the Heart,...it is how light manifests into form.

 

I understand that this can upset the logic of many who have been told the Crown Chakra is the greatest chakra,....however, all those that I'm aware of, who have realized enlightenment, said the Heart was higher.

 

If you investigate the book (written before I was born) in the "What is Light" thread,...imagine the horizonatal graphs as the chakras of a reclining person,....no longer is the Crown chakra highest,...and the Heart, resting upon the fulcrum in the center, will open up a new way of understanding,...an understanding you already gnow within your Unborn Awareness.

 

V

[Aetherous]

Seems to me that activation of the upper dantien (pineal, pituitary, etc) leads to a direct experience of the heart mind. In the book Taoist Yoga this is the first practice, called 'fixing spirit in its original cavity', which is said to reveal your essential nature.

 

The function of the middle dantien or heart chakra is more elusive to me, personally.

[Vajrahridaya]

Seems to me that activation of the upper dantien (pineal, pituitary, etc) leads to a direct experience of the heart mind. In the book Taoist Yoga this is the first practice, called 'fixing spirit in its original cavity', which is said to reveal your essential nature.

 

The function of the middle dantien or heart chakra is more elusive to me, personally.

 

It's a balancing of lower and higher vibrations so that there is an integration of inner spiritual experience and outer physical/emotional experience with our surroundings.

[Aetherous]

It's a balancing of lower and higher vibrations so that there is an integration of inner spiritual experience and outer physical/emotional experience with our surroundings.

 

I can see that.

 

If I meditate on MDT, what I notice later on is that my emotions will change. Sometimes in a temporary negative way...as if it brings stuff to the surface to deal with.

 

During the meditation it's probably the easiest place to cultivate positive feelings, like compassion.

 

It's like the center of being...the mind/energy radiates from here (this became obvious for me with awareness-watching-awareness practice).

 

I have always been taught that it's the end point in every energy system.

[hyok]

What's most important is finding the right activator for your needs. For me, Softsheen Golden activator fits the bill in every way. Even though I ain't got no afro, it gives my silky Asian hair just the right amount of shine to tingle my pineal gland and flutter the heart-mind like ol' grand daddy's chuckle after sippin' on a sweet glass of mama's Mississippi molassses.

 

[Vmarco]

Seems to me that activation of the upper dantien (pineal, pituitary, etc) leads to a direct experience of the heart mind. In the book Taoist Yoga this is the first practice, called 'fixing spirit in its original cavity', which is said to reveal your essential nature.

 

The function of the middle dantien or heart chakra is more elusive to me, personally.

 

 

Yes,....the upper dantien, or barycenter of the Yin chakras is an important understanding towards uncovering the Heart. Here's another way to look at it,...color.

 

The color that a healthy upper dantien vibrates at, and the color of a healthy lower dantein, spun together (interlaced) with the Green of a healthy Heart, is white light,..which has direct contact with the Clear Light, upon which all duality effects its motion.

 

V

[Vajrahridaya]

Hi VJ. Perhaps it is this mix of vibrations that I have experienced in some meditation (sitting and walking) sessions. Especially powerful during loving-kindness meditations.

 

Yes, it's interesting that the scientists can detect the movements in the brain vibrations when people do the brahmavihara meditations, but it's felt through the entire body and when incredibly powerful, one can feel the liquid bliss in the center of the chest area. All sorts of interesting things happen. I find the chest area can become very hot too, while internally cooling and there is this sense of open balance, grounded, yet light! Buoyant!

Edited August 9, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Jetsun]

If the centre of gravity of your being is in your head you are too top heavy and too distant from your lower centres so it is ungrounding, but if it is in your heart it is balanced as there are three energy centres below and three energy centres above it so you are balanced between heaven and earth. So I think if you want to get anywhere you need to centre yourself in your heart.

[fizix]

You don't get to the top of the mountain without first conquering the base... attempting to bypass development of the base (lower dan-tian) and trying to cultivate the higher chakras is asking for trouble, imbalance, prematurity... naturally develop the dan-tian and the chi will progressively overflow to the upper centers..

[Aetherous]

In order to bypass, you need a teacher who will show you a correct way. Otherwise yes it can be risky.

[Vajrahridaya]

You don't get to the top of the mountain without first conquering the base... attempting to bypass development of the base (lower dan-tian) and trying to cultivate the higher chakras is asking for trouble, imbalance, prematurity... naturally develop the dan-tian and the chi will progressively overflow to the upper centers..

 

Right... some go from top down, some from bottom up, and some mix it up along the way. As long as balance is the end result... yer good.

 

As we all know, spiritual progression is not a linear thing.

[Vajrahridaya]

In order to bypass, you need a teacher who will show you a correct way. Otherwise yes it can be risky.

 

Also, certain teachers can take on various aspects of the purification process onto themselves, themselves being so deeply immersed in the fire of love and compassion... they burn it in a way that i can only theorize about.

 

Of course like furnaces, burn wood and give back heat kind of thing.

 

Even though... for wisdom's sake... a teacher will allow you to make your own mistakes and come to your own understanding concerning these. If a teacher is especially sensitive, they will merely help you along with loving nudges and questions that you can answer yourself from within.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[gj551]

Seems to me that activation of the upper dantien (pineal, pituitary, etc) leads to a direct experience of the heart mind. In the book Taoist Yoga this is the first practice, called 'fixing spirit in its original cavity', which is said to reveal your essential nature.

 

The function of the middle dantien or heart chakra is more elusive to me, personally.

oh im a charles luk geek

 

translation of chakra terms into taoist alchemy vocabulary poses some problems though (imho)..

 

although there is no proof most people would regard the second chakra (svadisthana) as the lower elixir field (look at its position -> under the navel), then, is the upper elixir field the 6th (brow) or 7th (sahasrara) chakra. if you look at the recent 'anal breathing' thread you'll see in the picture that they equate it with the eye/brow region. there are some books which do likewise and many others are not that specific. luk instead always calls it the spot 'between and behind the eyes' (tsu chiao or ni wan). he also gives an illustration where it looks more like the centre of the head (page 124)

 

the choice would be between yingtang (extra1) and baihui (gov20), not taking into consideration that according to acupuncture point numbering the governor channel actually ends at the mouth

 

please tell, how do you interpret luks instruction of fixing spirit in its original cavity? i mean he says this cavity must always be aimed at by thoughts, heard by the ears etc

[Vmarco]

If the centre of gravity of your being is in your head you are too top heavy and too distant from your lower centres so it is ungrounding, but if it is in your heart it is balanced as there are three energy centres below and three energy centres above it so you are balanced between heaven and earth. So I think if you want to get anywhere you need to centre yourself in your heart.

 

 

The barycenter of your body is not the barycenter of your intellect, and neither of those are the barycenter of you emotions. Centering the Heart only, is a vibrant green,...but to find the threshold, the two other colors must spin as three. Red, violet and green light spun together makes white light,...you enetered this delusion through white light, and that is the only way back out. Ascension is the reverse of the descension.

 

The three can only be spun together at the Heart,...as an understanding of light will show.

 

V

[Aetherous]

gj,

 

oh im a charles luk geek

 

translation of chakra terms into taoist alchemy vocabulary poses some problems though (imho)..

 

although there is no proof most people would regard the second chakra (svadisthana) as the lower elixir field (look at its position -> under the navel), then, is the upper elixir field the 6th (brow) or 7th (sahasrara) chakra. if you look at the recent 'anal breathing' thread you'll see in the picture that they equate it with the eye/brow region. there are some books which do likewise and many others are not that specific. luk instead always calls it the spot 'between and behind the eyes' (tsu chiao or ni wan). he also gives an illustration where it looks more like the centre of the head (page 124)

 

Well, I think the 3rd chakra is the lower dantien (but the 2nd could be like a lower gateway to it...see The Gold Pavilion by Michael Saso), and and upper dantien is the ajna chakra and not sahasrara.

 

From what I understand tsu chiao is actually a channel which connects the top of the head-the original cavity-the heart-and the soles of the feet, together...similar to the "central channel" concept. Because of this connection, if one of these is energized, the rest are affected...so if you center the spirit in the original cavity, then the heart responds. Something that must be experienced in personal practice to understand.

 

At times I've seen niwan be confused with yintang (spot between the eyebrows)...but it's supposed to be between and behind the eyes as far as I know.

 

What wikipedia says regarding the ajna chakra is similar:

 

The Ajna chakra is positioned in the brain, directly behind the eyebrow centre, while its ksehtram or superficial activation site is at the eyebrow region, in the position of the 'third eye'.[1]

 

...

 

Ajna is associated with the third eye on the forehead. It is sometimes associated with the pineal gland, and sometimes with the pituitary gland. The pineal gland is actually related to a real, light sensitive 'third eye' (Parietal eye) found in some lizards, amphibians and fish, and regulates the circadian rhythms, while the Pituitary Gland is considered as the master gland of all endocrine glands, whose secretions control all the other endocrine glands.

 

...

 

In Qigong, the highest Dantian is located in this position. This is one of 3 'furnaces' that converts the different sorts of energy in the body. In this Dantian, the spiritual shen energy is converted into wuji, the infinite space of void [5]

 

By the way, what it says is true...it develops an actual void type of energy that seems to be the essence of all things, if you do it right. It will feel like the head or other parts of the body are completely vanishing and blending with the surroundings/pure being. I only experienced this twice...it's like an art to cultivate it...definitely not just a follow the instructions-get the experience type of thing. Must be skillfully pursued.

 

What's also interesting about the spot at the center of the head, is the sun and moon channels (ida and pingala) meet there. I can't remember, I think they're called something specific in Taoism...or maybe they're not even considered...

 

the choice would be between yingtang (extra1) and baihui (gov20), not taking into consideration that according to acupuncture point numbering the governor channel actually ends at the mouth

 

I personally view acupuncture/chinese medicine as an entirely separate field from Taoist neidan. Although it can be interesting to compare the two and see where they correlate.

 

please tell, how do you interpret luks instruction of fixing spirit in its original cavity? i mean he says this cavity must always be aimed at by thoughts, heard by the ears etc

 

I've seen some pictures from different schools, where there are 7, or 9 (or more) different locations within the head for the upper dantien. So it depends.

 

Here is one:

 

 

At least personally, I think the general center of the head is the 'original cavity of spirit'. This draws the attention back from the eyes and forehead (where most people's spirits end up getting stuck due to being so engaged in day to day life, and having eyesight centered perception). It aligns the energies with those of the heart.

 

Anyway, to put it into practice I think it's important to say, don't meditate there for too long! You don't want to stagnate the energy in the brain, by focusing too intensely or for too long of a period in one spot. 10 minutes is good. Basically one needs a teacher.

 

I like the Kunlun Nei-Gung practice of red phoenix. If you're interested in 'fixing spirit in its original cavity' I suggest you learn this.

 

Otherwise I suppose if a person really wants, they could try just feeling the energy go to the center of the head...then once it's centered, exhale and allow the energy to descend into the heart (the spot level with the nipples, in the center of the torso). It helps to center the attention in the heart and allow the qi to fall, or be sucked into where your attention is..."qi follows yi". Allow all of the energy from the head to go into that spot. Breathe in and out in the heart center. Then when it's there and centered, let go of it, and once again center the spirit/energy in the upper dantien. Do this for a little while, repeatedly...no more than 10 minutes to be safe. This version will allow you to not really worry about getting too ungrounded, because you're already bringing it down and blending it into the heart, and not stagnating the attention. When you're used to it, you can inhale at the upper dantien, then exhale and drop it to the middle dantien, and repeat.

 

Like I said, it's an art and requires skill. Through practice a person finds out what subtleties works best, and what doesn't. If it's not working well, don't do it!

 

"It is harmful to pinpoint places in the body, the very idea of which should be relinquished since it hinders the course of the inner fire and of vitality." -Charles Luk

 

After practicing it's very important to ensure all of the extra energy leaves the head, and doesn't return unless its within our control. It can be easy with upper dantien practice for it to become habitual, so it's important to end it very well. Put your hands crossed on your belly below the navel, right hand outside of the left (this position draws the energy down more)...focus on feeling the sensations down in the lower dantien, breathe from the belly to massage the internal stuff, imagine that your entire head has descended into the belly...these can help draw the energy down and normalize.

 

Anyway, I don't think upper dantien work is as harmful as people assume, if you follow instructions similar to these. Lower dantien work can be just as harmful because it's more related to kundalini, and is capable of causing qi deviation, where too much energy is rising in the spine or the back channel, and entering the brain. The energy of the upper centers is much more refined. But I'm sure someone will argue against this...

Edited August 10, 2011 by Scotty

[Jetsun]

I think Gopi Krishna got kundalini psychosis from only working with his upper chakra so problems with kundalini don't necessarily come from working with lower chakras

[Aetherous]

Problems come from incorrect practice, not from any area of the body in particular.

[tulku]

It's a balancing of lower and higher vibrations so that there is an integration of inner spiritual experience and outer physical/emotional experience with our surroundings.

 

What happens if a hermit wanna experience the inner spiritual without experiencing the physical and emotional?

 

Does he focus on the pineal gland only without any meditation on the heart-mind at all?

Edited August 10, 2011 by tulku

[tulku]

What is important for the process? Both.

 

However, enlightenment is unattainable without Heart-Mind.

 

Imagine the two triangles of David's Star,...one pointing up (the upper 3 chakras of Yin), and one triangle pointing down (the 3 chakras of Yang),...the key is at the interlacing point,...the Heart.

 

Understanding light,...how spectra manifests into form,...is quite helpful,...in fact essential,...in realizing what you seek. So far, the 'What is Light' thread has not penetrated deeply enough yet. However, a book was mentioned as a primer for discussion,...this book has serveral graphics, the 0 in the middle, in all the graphics, is the Heart. As one is pointed to finding the 0 or source in the book, one will also uncover Heart-Mind.

 

Ascension is simply the reverse of descension,...both through the Heart,...it is how light manifests into form.

 

I understand that this can upset the logic of many who have been told the Crown Chakra is the greatest chakra,....however, all those that I'm aware of, who have realized enlightenment, said the Heart was higher.

 

If you investigate the book (written before I was born) in the "What is Light" thread,...imagine the horizonatal graphs as the chakras of a reclining person,....no longer is the Crown chakra highest,...and the Heart, resting upon the fulcrum in the center, will open up a new way of understanding,...an understanding you already gnow within your Unborn Awareness.

 

V

 

More than one enlightened master including Mantak Chia and many other Indian Masters have talked about the benefits of the anja chakra third eye meditation in the process of enlightenment.

 

The third eye meditation is supposed to bring you into contact with your psychic/lunar body while the heart-mind meditation will only bring you into contact with your emotional body. This explains why many siddhas have been able to cultivate their siddhi powers when doing the third-eye meditation.

 

More importantly, the brain has many locked functions which can only be unlocked with the third-eye meditations. The brain may be thrown away after death but it doesn't mean we are not using it when we are living in the here and now.

 

The fact that the brain's many functions can be unlocked by third-eye meditations have been highlighted by many scientists and taoist masters.

 

I have yet to see any siddhi powers cultivated by doing heart-mind meditations.

 

I do not know who you are, but I do not think you have the credentials to rebuke the many spiritual masters of the past who have performed miracles with siddhi powers developed from third-eye meditations.

 

Unless you can prove to us that doing heart-mind meditations can unlock the latent powers hidden in man.

 

Using the "horizontal view to look at chakras equally" is totally hog-wash. Every spiritual master has talked about how the crown chakra is more important than the heart chakra.

 

But here comes along an unknown heretic who is arguing that the heart chakra is more important than the crown chakra.

 

I think the unknown heretic should prove that the heart chakra is more important than the crown chakra with displays of siddhi powers.

 

Otherwise, i am just going to concentrate on my anja third eye meditations for the rest of my life. Besides, I receive bliss in my forehead in some of my third-eye meditations sessions and none in my heart-area at all.

Edited August 10, 2011 by tulku

[tulku]

Yes,....the upper dantien, or barycenter of the Yin chakras is an important understanding towards uncovering the Heart. Here's another way to look at it,...color.

 

The color that a healthy upper dantien vibrates at, and the color of a healthy lower dantein, spun together (interlaced) with the Green of a healthy Heart, is white light,..which has direct contact with the Clear Light, upon which all duality effects its motion.

 

V

 

From what I understand, Man has more than 7 chakras. Like 12 or 19 chakras or something. Those spiritual chakras can only be unlocked and accessed by meditation.

 

What this prove however is that since there are higher chakras which can't be unlocked unless you do work themselves.

 

It also proves the well-accepted fact in every tradition that the higher the chakra, the more important the chakra is.

[tulku]

In order to bypass, you need a teacher who will show you a correct way. Otherwise yes it can be risky.

 

What about spiritual, non-physical, other-dimensional teachers?

Edited August 10, 2011 by tulku

[tulku]

gj,

 

 

 

Well, I think the 3rd chakra is the lower dantien (but the 2nd could be like a lower gateway to it...see The Gold Pavilion by Michael Saso), and and upper dantien is the ajna chakra and not sahasrara.

 

From what I understand tsu chiao is actually a channel which connects the top of the head-the original cavity-the heart-and the soles of the feet, together...similar to the "central channel" concept. Because of this connection, if one of these is energized, the rest are affected...so if you center the spirit in the original cavity, then the heart responds. Something that must be experienced in personal practice to understand.

 

At times I've seen niwan be confused with yintang (spot between the eyebrows)...but it's supposed to be between and behind the eyes as far as I know.

 

What wikipedia says regarding the ajna chakra is similar:

 

 

 

By the way, what it says is true...it develops an actual void type of energy that seems to be the essence of all things, if you do it right. It will feel like the head or other parts of the body are completely vanishing and blending with the surroundings/pure being. I only experienced this twice...it's like an art to cultivate it...definitely not just a follow the instructions-get the experience type of thing. Must be skillfully pursued.

 

What's also interesting about the spot at the center of the head, is the sun and moon channels (ida and pingala) meet there. I can't remember, I think they're called something specific in Taoism...or maybe they're not even considered...

 

 

 

I personally view acupuncture/chinese medicine as an entirely separate field from Taoist neidan. Although it can be interesting to compare the two and see where they correlate.

 

 

 

I've seen some pictures from different schools, where there are 7, or 9 (or more) different locations within the head for the upper dantien. So it depends.

 

Here is one:

 

 

At least personally, I think the general center of the head is the 'original cavity of spirit'. This draws the attention back from the eyes and forehead (where most people's spirits end up getting stuck due to being so engaged in day to day life, and having eyesight centered perception). It aligns the energies with those of the heart.

 

Anyway, to put it into practice I think it's important to say, don't meditate there for too long! You don't want to stagnate the energy in the brain, by focusing too intensely or for too long of a period in one spot. 10 minutes is good. Basically one needs a teacher.

 

I like the Kunlun Nei-Gung practice of red phoenix. If you're interested in 'fixing spirit in its original cavity' I suggest you learn this.

 

Otherwise I suppose if a person really wants, they could try just feeling the energy go to the center of the head...then once it's centered, exhale and allow the energy to descend into the heart (the spot level with the nipples, in the center of the torso). It helps to center the attention in the heart and allow the qi to fall, or be sucked into where your attention is..."qi follows yi". Allow all of the energy from the head to go into that spot. Breathe in and out in the heart center. Then when it's there and centered, let go of it, and once again center the spirit/energy in the upper dantien. Do this for a little while, repeatedly...no more than 10 minutes to be safe. This version will allow you to not really worry about getting too ungrounded, because you're already bringing it down and blending it into the heart, and not stagnating the attention. When you're used to it, you can inhale at the upper dantien, then exhale and drop it to the middle dantien, and repeat.

 

Like I said, it's an art and requires skill. Through practice a person finds out what subtleties works best, and what doesn't. If it's not working well, don't do it!

 

"It is harmful to pinpoint places in the body, the very idea of which should be relinquished since it hinders the course of the inner fire and of vitality." -Charles Luk

 

After practicing it's very important to ensure all of the extra energy leaves the head, and doesn't return unless its within our control. It can be easy with upper dantien practice for it to become habitual, so it's important to end it very well. Put your hands crossed on your belly below the navel, right hand outside of the left (this position draws the energy down more)...focus on feeling the sensations down in the lower dantien, breathe from the belly to massage the internal stuff, imagine that your entire head has descended into the belly...these can help draw the energy down and normalize.

 

Anyway, I don't think upper dantien work is as harmful as people assume, if you follow instructions similar to these. Lower dantien work can be just as harmful because it's more related to kundalini, and is capable of causing qi deviation, where too much energy is rising in the spine or the back channel, and entering the brain. The energy of the upper centers is much more refined. But I'm sure someone will argue against this...

 

Scotty, you are right about the anja chakra being the actual void type of energy for all things.

 

What's more important is that people forget that the emotions and even the bliss generated by the heart-mind is empty and just an illusion.

 

Focusing on the heart-mind will only further entrap you in the samsara of emotions, regardless of how positive they are.

 

To truly experience the void, the emptiness or the source, you have to destroy all the barriers between your mind and the void/source, including any and all emotions, regardless of how positive those emotions are.

 

This is why every spiritual master have instructed all the students to focus on third eye anja meditations throughout the ages.

 

Maybe the topic of the question should be changed to "does the emotion of love inhibit access to emptiness?"

[tulku]

I think Gopi Krishna got kundalini psychosis from only working with his upper chakra so problems with kundalini don't necessarily come from working with lower chakras

 

He got his problems from too much yang stuck in the forehead.

 

If he ran his kundalini through the front yin channel to his third-eye, and we all know that yin is supposed to be loving feelings, this will be the best mix of heart-mind and pineal gland activation.

 

Can anyone experiment with this here?

 

Run your kundalini through the front yin channel instead of the back yang channel. To be safe process the energy in your heart-chakra for a while to cool the energy down before pushing it into your pineal gland.

 

This will be a better, far more rewarding spiritual practice than just focusing on the heart-mind.

 

Mantak Chia has been mentioning the fact that the Vegas Star (The Yin Star) will rule our world instead of the Polaris Star (The Yang Star) from now on.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_gAML7FM_M