Honesty

[Aetherous]

Jetsun,

 

Look at the threads on feminism which got put in the pit, they revealed a lot of truths as everyone involved in those threads male and female are clearly children on the emotional level yet not many of them have the honesty to admit it or confront that within themselves, if they did do they would probably have a severe case of dark night of the soul, so they do Qi Gong, meditation and "spiritual" practice to avoid seeing that and confronting that, to try to transmute that which they don't like. That's the way I see it anyway.

 

Might want to go back to your therapist and confront some more of your own shit before pointing the finger, bud. You don't know me or anyone else involved in those discussions.

 

It'd be a great forum if we all took the time. But, who cares, right?

[Vmarco]

I think we should all aspire to honesty, but as is so often the case, honesty for most people, comes in degrees. Not everyone is ready to be completely honest with themselves, or to admit that what they believe they know, might not be true. In my own experience, being raised a christian, having a spiritual experience that caused me to question my belief in God and then my journey to understand "truth", I've come to the conclusion that there are no truths, per se, that it all relies on intellect and as such, it can't really be trusted.

 

....it's all reliant on the human experience and as such everything is open to interpretation.

 

Perhaps in order to be completely honest, it doesn't require that we automatically disbelieve everything that we cannot prove, but rather that we're open to new ideas, that we are not so set on our own beliefs that we automatically disregard others beliefs? And even if we do not believe in something someone else does, does that mean we have to label it as being false, can someone be honest and also be silent?

 

 

So, in your experience, some spiritual occurrance brought about a shift in you to challenge your religious indoctrination, and begin a journey to understand truth. As for what kind of honesty I was wishing for in this thread? Partially as you implied,..."I don't know", but continue to be open to ideas that haven't "honestly" been found untrue.

 

Beyond that, if we consider the many who have already traversed further than the ordinary person,...(by ordinary, meaning those whose focus is predominately in Maslow's Lower-archy of Needs), we should be able to understand the essence of real honesty rather quickly,...compared to those who come before us. These are accelerated times.

 

I agree, there's no need to reject what cannot be proven,...this is especially important in today's empirically-minded world, where although something is not proven false, it is generally disregarded because experiments have a null result, which means neither true nor false. For the sciential-minded, if something is factually neither true nor false, through their object-ive evaluations, it is considered false.

 

So, "can someone be honest and also be silent? IMO, that is something that honesty will have to reveal. The other question could be, if we are not honest, what effect does that have on us.

 

"An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens." Thomas Jefferson

 

V

[Vmarco]

I know you have studied Gurdjieff Vmarco so you must know what he says about the state of the average man, that his intellectual centre is highly developed yet his emotional centre is retarded. Yet just about no-one has the honesty to really see that in themselves as they have an image of themselves as a competent mature adult. Just look at most of the threads on this board, people can intellectualise all day long like experts in the subjects and mentally masturbate yet there is no emotional connection. Look at the threads on feminism which got put in the pit, they revealed a lot of truths as everyone involved in those threads male and female are clearly children on the emotional level yet not many of them have the honesty to admit it or confront that within themselves, if they did do they would probably have a severe case of dark night of the soul, so they do Qi Gong, meditation and "spiritual" practice to avoid seeing that and confronting that, to try to transmute that which they don't like. That's the way I see it anyway.

 

You crack me up! Yes, I agree with your assessment,...although I'm not familiar with a femininism thread or the pit. Actually, I'm very much a feminist,..although not the traditional kind,...sort of a heretical feminist, LOL

 

Are you aware of EJ Gold's observations on Real Emotions?

 

In 'Practical Work on Self', EJ writes:

"Real emotions are communicated by outward radiation of the mood, and originate through an awakened emotional center, which has no reverberational effects in other parts of the body, and is not necessary to verbally communicate the emotion.

 

Positive and negative emotion are subjective mental states occuring in reflex, and must be verbalized and elaborately described, explained, rationalized and mentally communicated and understood.

Those who can produce real emotions in themselves never communicate about emotional states in mental language; they just radiate the emotions, allowing the emotion to speak for itself.

In the presence of someone who is able to produce real emotion, we experience feelings - perhaps for the first time. Very often, someone who has awakened the higher Emotional Body and who has learned to radiate emotions becomes a celebrity-guru, and people gather like cattle to bathe in the higher emotions. These higher emotions are often mistaken for some mysterious cosmic force or interpreted in some pseudo-religious way, but really they are just emotions.

 

What a pity that human beings are so unaccustomed to emotion that they feel compelled to submissively huddle together in the warmth of the emotional radiation of someone just as mechanical as they are, but who happened to have activated, by accident, the higher Emotional Body." pg28

 

V

[doc benway]

Honest and Integrity are two of the core values that I attempt to reflect in word and action.

It is very tricky to do consistently.

We have so many predetermined patterns of behavior and responses and we have created so many images about and around ourselves that it is virtually a lifetime commitment to dismantle all of that.

In my mind it's worth the candle.

And I appreciate the honesty of others, whether they are in accordance with my views or not.

My best friend (a TaoBum who's not at all active) is militantly honest, sometimes to his own detriment.

He is a mirror held in front of my face reflecting any masks or games that find their way in.

Priceless!

[Vmarco]

You don't know me or anyone else involved in those discussions.

 

It'd be a great forum if we all took the time. But, who cares, right?

 

I don't know if I found the correct thread, but I found post #501 in the 'Nature of Women.'

 

This is the unfortunate misunderstanding which has taken place the entire time in these topics. No one was ever discussing ALL women, and no matter how many times it was spelled out, those who took offense simply didn't care to listen...both male and female.

 

This same dynamic occurs in discussions about Conservative Christians with Moderated Christians.

http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2009/03/do-moderate-christians-enable.html

 

These are times of High Toxicity. In the US, Christian Fascists are on a warpath to alter the social structure of the Country,...they preach Less Government,...but just in the past year, have made hundreds of Laws on the States level, against women, laws to humiliate women who have an abortion, laws against LGBT's, and Freethinkers, laws trashing the first phrase of our First Amendment which guarentees Freedom FROM Religion,...only second does it say Freedom OF Religion.

 

This is off topic,...but ever hear of Peter Russell's "Global Brain" theory. I think he was pretty insightful, but perhaps underestimated by 20 years. Check out the film,...especially the overcrowding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_73aFQGLcgQ

 

I saw it when it first came out,...amazing how perennial it is.

 

V

Edited August 13, 2011 by Vmarco

[Vmarco]

Honest and Integrity are two of the core values that I attempt to reflect in word and action.

It is very tricky to do consistently.

 

My best friend (a TaoBum who's not at all active) is militantly honest, sometimes to his own detriment.

He is a mirror held in front of my face reflecting any masks or games that find their way in.

Priceless!

 

You should invite him to the thread.

 

V

[Aetherous]

Vmarco,

 

This same dynamic occurs in discussions about Conservative Christians with Moderated Christians.

http://atheistexperi...ans-enable.html

 

These are times of High Toxicity. In the US, Christian Fascists are on a warpath to alter the social structure of the Country,...they preach Less Government,...but just in the past year, have made hundreds of Laws on the States level, against women, laws to humiliate women who have an abortion, laws against LGBT's, and Freethinkers, laws trashing the first phrase of our First Amendment which guarentees Freedom FROM Religion,...only second does it say Freedom OF Religion.

 

While that is true, many of your posts have been very biased against Christianity as a whole...not just the fascist element. Lets try to keep this in mind as we continue here. It requires honesty.

[Seth Ananda]

 

Fair enough. For a different point of view, I have purposefully used highly researched and peer reviewed material throughout my posts,...some by well known figures, like Ki Master Koichi Tohei, Justin Stone, and various PhD's from Harvard, MSU, and Stanford. So, I'm quite comfortable with the accuracy.

 

You are kidding right...? So your slip slop of mashing your out of context Interpretations of Vajrayana with some osho quotes and some theory's about light represent "highly researched and peer reviewed material" ?

 

lol, that is just hilarious.

 

It would be so awesome if Seth really was "deeply Interested or even obsessed with 'Truth'" Really, really awesome. But he appears to have bowed-out,...prey to his predispositions.

 

It is awesome. Unfortunately my mind works to well to swallow your BS. It's a pity really because I think you are Intelligent. But I think you suffer from philosophical cowardice. Any time someone here has pointed at any of the major flaws in your theory's, you do not respond to the actual points, and just write up a wall of quotes.

 

You seem to believe in 'Proof by Authority' as your constant quoting demonstrates. That is unfortunate.

 

Waking up is not necessarily pleasant:

you get to see

why all this time,

you chose to sleep.

 

When you wake up

the first thing you will see is

Reality does not exist for you,

you exist for it.

Shocking as it is

when you let it in,

there is rest.

 

You do not have to labor anymore

to hold together a reality

that does not exist;

forcing something to be real

that is not real.

 

You and this life you have been living

are not real ...

 

In letting it in,

even through the shock... pain... shattering,

there is rest.

 

Reality is when

all you want to know is

what is true ...

just so that you can

let it in

and be true.

Reality is not a safe place for you -

the you that you have created.

 

It is the only place where

you would die;

where there is no room for

your hopes, your dreams.

 

Once you have let it in,

once you begin to re-awaken;

to let Reality wake you up,

nothing can get it out.

That is the beginning of your end.

 

Waking up can be much more painful

than the agony of your dream,

but waking up is real ... RdeR

 

I like and agree with this...

[Vmarco]

[Seth Ananda]

 

And there lies your problem with me,...you cling to faith, beliefs, and mathematical assumptions for your identity. How you equate those characteristics with an obsession for truth, I have no idea. What Vajrayana tells me is that attachment to faith, belief, and mathematical assumptions is dis-honesty.

 

V

Actually no, my problem with you is that you cling to your Ideas as absolutely true in all situations.

 

I myself do not hold that stance about any single Idea in my head or any group of my Ideas together.

 

Every theory I subscribe to is only for Its workability in my life/experience and is not taken as absolute Infallible truth, no matter the depth of Mystical experience it brings about, or how utterly Logical it may be as a theory.

I also question my Interpretations of my experiences, and do not take them literally either.

 

All this shows in my path which has changed track many times. For instance while I am not a Theist anymore, that is where I began. I did not 'just' believe as you have indicated all theists do, but rather asked

"if there is a God, can I experience him/her/it, directly, myself?"

I set out to find out, and that gave me many strange experiences, which it turns out are common to Mystics of all traditions.

I was very comfortable in the Theistic tradition, Kashmir Shavism being my tradition by the way.

[and please note that the MahaSiddha Saraha, was also a Kashmir Shavite as well as a Buddhist Mahamudra master, and that is a detail that leaves many Buddhist interpreters uncomfortable today as they often leave out his verses that have a KS nature or that refer to Shavite Yogi's - so There you have a main founder of Vajrayana being partly Involved with a theistic school.]

 

But I was slowly won over by Buddhist thought.

My own questionings about whether what my tradition calls God, or the experience of God, really 'was' God allowed this transformation to take place.

Also I could not deny that Theism engenders a subtle clinging, which at least in myself I could see clearly, and 'for me' at this time Buddhist thought and practice allows me to drop even this.

 

one day hopefully someone may help liberate my mind further with the right questions and a good communication style, but that will not be you, unless you learn to communicate properly. {assuming of course you have any wisdom}

 

Proper communication requires understanding your own points clearly, and understanding the frames of reference others have, and exactly how they mean words you both share, that may have differing concepts attached to them.

 

All your supposed 'wisdom' lectures where you bag all other Buddhists just show you do not even grasp the way other Buddhists understand Buddha's teachings.

 

Seth.

[doc benway]

Honesty,...of course we all believe or think we are honest,...but are we?

....

 

I'm asking this for a selfish reason,...are there enough honest people, or people open to honesty, on this form? For me, somewhat raised in a Vajrayogini environment, honesty is quite important to me.

 

OK - let's examine honesty at it's most fundamental level with respect to what is actually going on here at this juncture.

You are writing this first post in a thread about honesty on this forum.

The tone of your post seems to be pointing at the entire board and challenging - are you honest?

It even has the feel of - are you honest enough to engage with me?

And yet you never quite offer why you are asking the question or where it may lead, it is very open ended.

You are holding yourself aloof, observing, judging, measuring others against yourself.

At least, that is what I feel from the words.

 

So let's start with this. What is the true, fundamental reason for this post?

Why are you interested in the honesty of others?

How will you know when they are being honest?

How will you measure and judge them?

Why do you measure and judge others?

Have you already completed the delicate and difficult process with respect to everything about yourself?

Is it possible to measure others if you have completed that process????

 

Let's take it a step back even.

Why are you posting on a public, anonymous forum a question about honesty?

Particularly when there is no hope for confirmation of anything?

When there can be no real human communication?

When there are no expressions or gestures to read, no subtlety of communication whatsoever, no relationshp?

Just analysis and conjecture based on carefully (or not so carefully) chosen words.

 

Why ever post on any anonymous forum in such a fashion?

What is my motivation and relationship to the words I am writing?

How do they make me feel?

What does honesty really mean when it comes to sharing words on a public anonymous forum?

 

Do you/I write with care or impulsively? Why?

Do I care how others respond? WHY???

You asked people to reply ONLY if they are in accordance with your intention and yet you never even specified your intention beyond the word honesty .... WHY??????

 

After you post something on this anonymous board, do you then look to see how others responded?

Yes? Why?

If they agree or compliment does that make you feel good? Is that why we do what we do here? Look very carefully at this if you haven't already.

If they disagree or insult or challenge or question, how does that make you feel? Do you choose to give strangers that power over you? Do you think that you have that power over them?

Why defend your particular opinion against criticism? Is that important to you? With strangers who you may never meet?

Who may be 15 years old?

 

Are there people in your life who perhaps would prefer that you spend less time in such endeavors and engage with them in real relationship? Do you have such feelings? Do you understand how to be in a relationship? Because even on this public, anonymous forum, what we are doing is relationship. Yet we choose this particular vehicle for very specific reasons. These reasons are critical to identify, acknowledge, and examine if we are to even begin to have a sense of who we are, what we value, what we are comfortable with, and what we are uncomfortable with, and how we choose to act in order to find security. And how we treat others with our words reflects much about who they are. This is honesty in my life.

 

So if we are to talk about honesty, I would ask that we start with wondering why we are starting such a topic in such a forum, or any topic in any forum, and be very clear, very clear with ourselves and each other.

 

Do you / we have the courage to do that?

Is it valuable enough to sit in front of a computer screen for hours, indulging our intellect and ego while our lives pass us by, tick, tick, tick?

 

Honestly

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

 

I myself do not hold that stance about any single Idea in my head or any group of my Ideas together.

 

Every theory I subscribe to is only for Its workability in my life/experience and is not taken as absolute Infallible truth, no matter the depth of Mystical experience it brings about, or how utterly Logical it may be as a theory. I also question my Interpretations of my experiences, and do not take them literally either.

 

All this shows in my path which has changed track many times. For instance while I am not a Theist anymore, that is where I began

 

one day hopefully someone may help liberate my mind further with the right questions and a good communication style, but that will not be you, unless you learn to communicate properly. {assuming of course you have any wisdom}

 

 

 

That's awesome. I fully missed all of that in the "Three Kinds of Spiritual Teachings" thread.

 

I easily recall my own emancipation from the god meme,...the exact date and time,...and how afterwards there was this near unexpressable beauty seeing myself in the mirror, as so much baggage was lifted from observing that one core issue, through which it all effortlessly dissolved.

 

Although you could possibly contribute some great insights to this discussion, my communication style is not going to change. More and more I find that Heart-Mind vocabulary is very, very specific,...and very different from what people think it should be. So, in your own words, you'll uncover no liberation through any dialogue I offer, no matter has wise or heretical it is.

 

I'm not a proper communicator. But I am, as Vajrayogini shares, radically honest. Speaking of which, did you catch the post where I link the Vajrayogini song? Just click on this homepage and listen.

http://www.diamondbodyyoga.com/

 

 

Is that you

I've been waiting for you

 

Quietly, comes the Buddha

wake up

all along awake in your dreams

wake up

quietly she watches you sleep

gently,...sweetly

 

In your lucid dreams

awake

Quietly, comes the buddha

all along inside of me

Suddenly I wake from the dream

lucid reality

yes she's smiling at me

Singing

 

laughing at me

dancing with me

...singing

 

I had a dream

oh my dream

 

finally, I've become the buddha

All along awake in this dream

finally compassion is real

it's lessening

the open-hearted reign

 

Laughter reigns

laughter sings

glistening

Your heart, it sings

 

written and sung by Jenn Howey

 

V

Edited August 13, 2011 by Vmarco

[Informer]

In other words, he is writing a book and is looking for us to help him, imo.

 

[Vmarco]

In other words, he is writing a book and is looking for us to help him, imo.

 

 

I am indeed writing a book,...my 4th,...it was actually drafted two years ago,...and yes, this and all dialogue, certainly influences me to some degree. It doesn't influence the content, but how the content may be delivered.

 

V

[TheWhiteRabbit]

VMarco, I am glad to hear of your acheivements. I havnt been on this forum for quite some time now.

My mind was clouded for at least a good year that I had to work through due to a stressor. However, I also came out of it a better person.

 

Personally, I cant help but wonder if you were targeted because I responded.

Edited August 13, 2011 by TheWhiteRabbit

[doc benway]