Honesty

[Vmarco]

Honesty,...of course we all believe or think we are honest,...but are we?

 

René Descartes, concerning the senses, must have considered the impasse of object-ivity when he articulated, All that I have tried to understand to the present time has been affected by my senses; now I know these senses are deceivers, and it is prudent to be distrustful after one has been deceived once.

 

So, let's say that Real Honesty cannot arise from the senses. Then what is honesty?

 

A fellow from India said, Start knowing what you really know, and stop believing what you really dont know. Somebody asks you. Is there a God? and you say, Yes, God is. Remember: Do you really know? If you dont know, please dont say that you do. Say, I dont know.. . . False knowing is the enemy of true knowledge. All beliefs are false knowledge.

 

Whoa! Who has that kind of honesty?

 

I'm asking this for a selfish reason,...are there enough honest people, or people open to honesty, on this form? For me, somewhat raised in a Vajrayogini environment, honesty is quite important to me.

 

I am not suited to polite society, To social striving, upward mobility, and making good impressions, I am radically honest, sensitive, brilliant, and blunt , I hold up a mirror to the best and worst facets of human life. - ~Vajrayogini

 

IT IS REQUESTED that only those in resonance respond,...those in disonance, whose only intent is to injure, there are many other threads to troll in.

 

V

Edited August 12, 2011 by Vmarco

[Aetherous]

Whoa! Who has that kind of honesty?

 

Me.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Hmm. I wrote something that in a round about way has to do with this same topic:

 

(it is a three part series a lot of reading)

 

Grant's Note on Facebook

[Marblehead]

IT IS REQUESTED that only those in resonance respond,...those in disonance, whose only intent is to injure, there are many other threads to troll in.

 

I guess that leaves me out. Oh well.

[Vmarco]

Hmm. I wrote something that in a round about way has to do with this same topic:

 

 

Sorry I missed that thread. Coming up with a vocabulary to discuss honesty in an honest way is certainly of interest to me.

 

V

[Informer]

[LBDaoist]

I am honest about my dishonesty and my fear of the truth.

[Sunya]

Let me guess, we should all be "really honest" and admit we know nothing, and let you tell us your version of the truth?

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Sorry I missed that thread. Coming up with a vocabulary to discuss honesty in an honest way is certainly of interest to me.

 

V

 

Hmm. There was a link in my reply.

 

Nothing is ever an absolute. This is in as much as any chair is made up of the same material which is a metaphor for honesty.

 

Because of our limited awareness, sometimes some of our fellow humans take this flaw "for a ride" when they lie.

 

Let me break it down further so you understand, as I have had the habit of being utterly ambiguous in the past with my explainations.

 

All of us have some measure of awareness. This awareness is increased when people bring things to our attention that we were not aware of before. In turn, sometimes because what we see disturbs us or makes us angry or upset we ignore things or close our awareness off.

 

The fact is that no human can be completely aware all of the time and we falter or give misinformation sometimes when we truely intend not to. Me personally, it makes me sound unsure of myself when I have to truely give the answer "I dont know". This is because there may be so many unknowns that affect the outcome known as X.

 

Such as: When will so and so be home? Well she did say that she had to run this and this errand and most likely will be home by 5pm. This is of course if one of the errands doesnt take too long and possibly could.

 

People who lie count on the fact that people are not aware and count on this. They either hope to gain something or sometimes I have observed they do it for fun just to see reactions. There are some however that do it for power like for example in politics. Politics is full of half truths doctored up to sound good based upon social research on what groups of people like what. For example there are Rush Limbaugh followers out here in the states that have a following because what he says they like. The same can be said of Huckabee.

 

In essence of what I am saying in the above link I posted to a note on facebook, hopefully mankind will soon see the destructive nature of not being true to a greater awareness of things and finally wake up. Humanity sleeps... quite deep still.

 

I hope there is still time. Hope offers nothing however.

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

[TheWhiteRabbit]

[Desert Eagle]

I have that kind of honesty but my conveying skills fail sometimes so it gets me in trouble so I trained to rein it in. the reactionary ego lashes out easy to prevent uncomfortable change. I sincerely wish that every one communicated like in that film "the invention of lying" in lieu of telepathy.

[Informer]

 

So, let me see if I can, in the context of the dialogue, make a quantum leap with respect to an awareness/learning curve, and ask,...is there a faculty or metasensory way, to observe in the present,...as Tathagata's do,....versus the limitations of obseving in the past which the 6 senses do? Or, do we need more preliminaries to arrive at that step.

 

 

Rhetorical question.

[Seth Ananda]

I would suggest that Honesty can not be really talked about in a thread lorded over by Vmarco.

 

You troll freely in other peoples threads, generally ruining them with your endless drivel and quote churning, yet you ask others to keep out of yours?

 

Honesty. I hold myself to the highest standard of honesty I can.

I constantly look for ways out of, or around the Ideas I have, or for ways that my thinking might be loosing it's grip on it's own subjective nature, and start trying to become objective facts.

I have railed against beliefs for the last 20 years. I ask what ifs, I report on my own experiences and then question deeply into them.

 

I am deeply Interested or even obsessed with 'Truth' but am extremely guarded and cautions with any 'Final' assertion...

 

Unfortunately Vmarco I have not seen you exhibit the slightest trace of any of these qualities in all your boring and Illogical dialogues here, yet you remain utterly convinced of your own astonishing wisdom amongst all us lying dishonest plebeians.

 

Honesty, Lol!

[Stigweard]

I would suggest that Honesty can not be really talked about in a thread lorded over by Vmarco.

 

You troll freely in other peoples threads, generally ruining them with your endless drivel and quote churning, yet you ask others to keep out of yours?

 

Honesty. I hold myself to the highest standard of honesty I can.

I constantly look for ways out of, or around the Ideas I have, or for ways that my thinking might be loosing it's grip on it's own subjective nature, and start trying to become objective facts.

I have railed against beliefs for the last 20 years. I ask what ifs, I report on my own experiences and then question deeply into them.

 

I am deeply Interested or even obsessed with 'Truth' but am extremely guarded and cautions with any 'Final' assertion...

 

Unfortunately Vmarco I have not seen you exhibit the slightest trace of any of these qualities in all your boring and Illogical dialogues here, yet you remain utterly convinced of your own astonishing wisdom amongst all us lying dishonest plebeians.

 

Honesty, Lol!

 

Now THERE is some honesty!!

 

Heheheh

[Stigweard]

I'll be honest ... I have no fricken idea. What I assume I know is so pitifully small and hopelessly distorted in comparison to the subtle universal truth that no one should ever ever listen to a word I say and I really should just STFU.

 

Honest enough for ya?

 

[Jetsun]

Most people aren't honest, you need someone who isn't afraid to persistently cut through your bullshit mercilessly to show that to you. I used to think that I was honest but it took seeing a psychotherapist to show me that I was delluding myself, I used to do all sorts of meditations, pranayama, Qi Kung, then at the end of the week go into psychotherapy with the intention to be composed like a Buddha talking about the truths and realisations i had discovered, but then inevitably i would leave angry and confused like a little boy week after week. A few years of that and you start to see that you are not honest to yourself most of the time let alone anyone else, and just about noone else is either yet most people are way off even that low level realisation that on the emotional level they are still children.

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

Most people aren't honest, you need someone who isn't afraid to persistently cut through your bullshit mercilessly to show that to you. I used to think that I was honest but it took seeing a psychotherapist to show me that I was delluding myself, I used to do all sorts of meditations, pranayama, Qi Kung, then at the end of the week go into psychotherapy with the intention to be composed like a Buddha talking about the truths and realisations i had discovered, but then inevitably i would leave angry and confused like a little boy week after week. A few years of that and you start to see that you are not honest to yourself most of the time let alone anyone else, and just about noone else is either yet most people are way off even that low level realisation that on the emotional level they are still children.

 

To me, you have surely realized a level of awareness which would welcome honesty. Dzogchen Buddhists say that "being honest with ourselves is the most important virtue,...Without honesty, we will find that true compassion, caring and kindness are beyond our reach."

 

Although the word honesty often characterized by truth, not falsity,...my intention was to see if there was interest just in the term "honest." Getting into the subject of truth really ruffles peoples beliefs.

 

In Buddhism and the Wisdom Traditions, real honesty means being willing to see things as they are, without having any motive or intention whatsoever to change them. I am curious how persons like yourself, who have already uncovered the dishonesty of who we "think" we are, flow with such awareness. For example, have you considered the posibility that honesty can occur,...and if so, do you have a process or practice, like neti-neti, to at least be able to recognize the false as the false?

 

V

[Jetsun]

To me, you have surely realized a level of awareness which would welcome honesty. Dzogchen Buddhists say that "being honest with ourselves is the most important virtue,...Without honesty, we will find that true compassion, caring and kindness are beyond our reach."

 

Although the word honesty often characterized by truth, not falsity,...my intention was to see if there was interest just in the term "honest." Getting into the subject of truth really ruffles peoples beliefs.

 

In Buddhism and the Wisdom Traditions, real honesty means being willing to see things as they are, without having any motive or intention whatsoever to change them. I am curious how persons like yourself, who have already uncovered the dishonesty of who we "think" we are, flow with such awareness. For example, have you considered the posibility that honesty can occur,...and if so, do you have a process or practice, like neti-neti, to at least be able to recognize the false as the false?

 

V

 

I would say I am divided, the real part of me which you could call my soul craves and loves honesty, yet my ego loves it's image which can sometimes condradict honesty, especially in social situations. I have studied Buddhism and Dzogchen a bit and it is easy being honest on the cushion on your own but bringing that to daily life is a different matter, there in life practises like self observation from the Gudjieff tradition are more likely to show you the path to honesty in my experience. Yet doing it on your own no matter your practice is difficult, other people are the best way to cut through your own self delusion especially if you have someone like a teacher or therapist whose job it is to do so.

[Vmarco]

 

Now THERE is some honesty!!

 

 

For one, that response could be called trolling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

 

Second, the thread is intended to about real honesty, not ad hominem. Ad hominem is when one attacks someones character, rather than dialoguing on the question/argument,subject.

 

Seth does present a good example of dishonesty, that of predisposition. He exclaims, "I have not seen you exhibit the slightest trace of any of these qualities in all your boring and Illogical dialogues here."

 

Fair enough. For a different point of view, I have purposefully used highly researched and peer reviewed material throughout my posts,...some by well known figures, like Ki Master Koichi Tohei, Justin Stone, and various PhD's from Harvard, MSU, and Stanford. So, I'm quite comfortable with the accuracy.

 

I was wishful that this thread could be troll free,...but already got at least 3 post on the first page.

 

It would be so awesome if Seth really was "deeply Interested or even obsessed with 'Truth'" Really, really awesome. But he appears to have bowed-out,...prey to his predispositions.

 

It takes a certain amount of waking up to seriously inquire about truth. Jetsun seems to have broke through, but most (speaking of people in the world) don't even want to know. For them, they merely desire dependable descriptions of an objective world that they consider intelligible.

 

Waking up is not necessarily pleasant:

you get to see

why all this time,

you chose to sleep.

 

When you wake up

the first thing you will see is

Reality does not exist for you,

you exist for it.

Shocking as it is

when you let it in,

there is rest.

 

You do not have to labor anymore

to hold together a reality

that does not exist;

forcing something to be real

that is not real.

 

You and this life you have been living

are not real ...

 

In letting it in,

even through the shock... pain... shattering,

there is rest.

 

Reality is when

all you want to know is

what is true ...

just so that you can

let it in

and be true.

Reality is not a safe place for you -

the you that you have created.

 

It is the only place where

you would die;

where there is no room for

your hopes, your dreams.

 

Once you have let it in,

once you begin to re-awaken;

to let Reality wake you up,

nothing can get it out.

That is the beginning of your end.

 

Waking up can be much more painful

than the agony of your dream,

but waking up is real ... RdeR

[Aaron]

I'm going to join this post with some trepidation, because I think it does have merit. I think we should all aspire to honesty, but as is so often the case, honesty for most people, comes in degrees. Not everyone is ready to be completely honest with themselves, or to admit that what they believe they know, might not be true. In my own experience, being raised a christian, having a spiritual experience that caused me to question my belief in God and then my journey to understand "truth", I've come to the conclusion that there are no truths, per se, that it all relies on intellect and as such, it can't really be trusted.

 

Do I believe in God? No. Do I believe in a higher being? I don't know. I sometimes like to think along the lines of Vedantic Hinduism, that perhaps we are all a part of one single entity and we merely have to awaken to be aware of it, but I'm not sure if that's the kind of honesty that we're looking for here.

 

I think that if honesty is broken down to the notion that everyone must believe in certain ideals and that any other ideals are automatically wrong, then that form of honesty is somewhat dishonest, because again, it's all reliant on the human experience and as such everything is open to interpretation.

 

Perhaps in order to be completely honest, it doesn't require that we automatically disbelieve everything that we cannot prove, but rather that we're open to new ideas, that we are not so set on our own beliefs that we automatically disregard others beliefs? And even if we do not believe in something someone else does, does that mean we have to label it as being false, can someone be honest and also be silent?

 

Anyways, that's my two cents.

 

Aaron

Edited August 13, 2011 by Twinner

[Vmarco]

[Jetsun]

I know you have studied Gurdjieff Vmarco so you must know what he says about the state of the average man, that his intellectual centre is highly developed yet his emotional centre is retarded. Yet just about no-one has the honesty to really see that in themselves as they have an image of themselves as a competent mature adult. Just look at most of the threads on this board, people can intellectualise all day long like experts in the subjects and mentally masturbate yet there is no emotional connection. Look at the threads on feminism which got put in the pit, they revealed a lot of truths as everyone involved in those threads male and female are clearly children on the emotional level yet not many of them have the honesty to admit it or confront that within themselves, if they did do they would probably have a severe case of dark night of the soul, so they do Qi Gong, meditation and "spiritual" practice to avoid seeing that and confronting that, to try to transmute that which they don't like. That's the way I see it anyway.

Edited August 13, 2011 by Jetsun