How to recognize Chi

[dawei]

also on a side note imo/ime one does not need to be a qigong master to emit qi. evryone has ability to do it. some will emit much stronger and smoother qi than others. i think maybe becoz i live so close to nature maybe why i experience this quicker than it seems others do? idk, but it is not a master level accomplishment just to emit and absorb qi.

Absolutely true, it is actually quite easy to emit or receive Qi. But I have found that those who are 'open' inside are quite sensitive to sensing it.

[zerostao]

:)ChiDragon,

"

1. We were talking about emitting Chi 5 to 10 feet away which an ordinary person cannot do."

ok, well yes that is a difference , i am at 3 feet range.

"2. You can do a google search on ATP."

thanks

i also feel that certain herb use can open one on the inside.

what do you guys think?

[oat1239]

oat1239...

As I had mentioned this here once before in the forum, I am not at the level of understanding how Chi was emitted from on human body. This was never my argument. My argument was an scientific and comprehensible explanation to show how was the energy generated within the human body.

 

If I am going to explain the scenario in you case, based with my present knowledge, the Chi emitted from the human body has to be related to the ATP because that was the only known source of energy within the human body. My educational guess would be that the Chi Kung master has the ability to activate all the mitochondria in the body to generated a maximum of ATP possible to release all at once.

 

From your previous comment on ATP:

"The reason we breathe was to capture the oxygen in the air for

our body cells. Then, the body cells will use the oxygen to combine

with the glucose and convert it into energy. This energy is a

biochemical energy called adenosine triphosphate(ATP). Our muscles

require this biological useful energy for contraction. Thus we get

an indication from this fact if we breathe more oxygen, then our

body cells will generate more energy. "

 

I believe there is no known basis to think that ATP can be transmitted across space, as it is a form of biochemical energy based on your statement above, so to suggest that this must somehow be related to qi projection does not seem to have any real basis. You can't propose a definition of something that does not encompass all the known properties of that thing. Various people have pointed out to you that qi can be acquired through still or moving forms which do not place any emphasis on special breathing. Also, many here have experience with the transmission of qi through space with physical contact not being required. It seems quite unreasonable to me that we should ignore such things when considering what qi is just because such things might not fit in with someone's preconceived notions of what qi is. To start to consider what qi is we have to at least take into account all the properties and forms that we are aware of.

 

You stated previously:

"We cannot go by any myth from the past fanatically. We must go with something that is explainable and comprehensible".

 

Even though it is pointed out to you that qi simply cannot just relate directly to air or oxygen or its effects on the body such as the production of ATP, because it is possible to absorb and accumalte qi without any special breathing (many here have no doubt experienced this) and qi can be transmitted across space from one person to another person or to an object and produce definite effects. No offense but you actually seem to be the one fanatically holding on to your very limited definition of qi as air or oxygen or ATP, which actually itself appears to be just a "myth from the past", as your definition clearly falls short of known observed properties of qi that various people have experienced and reported and written about.

 

Whatever qi is, it is certainly not just some property or effect of air or oxygen or ATP or other biological property. It may have some connection or relation to such things in some way, but it is clearly not those things. If there is a physical explanation for qi, it seems much more likely to me that it will involve either some as yet unknown form of energy or some other as yet unknown property or properties of matter that occurs at a subatomic level or some such thing. Your definition is clearly not in line with what many qigong practitioners over the years are reporting about qi and qigong. You seem to be picking and choosing what you want to consider as qi and ignoring anything else that doesn't fit with this preconceived notion. This seems neither reasonable nor scientific.

 

I personally don't have any idea what qi is other than it is certainly mysterious, so I can't offer anything to this discussion in regards to forming a definition. Sometimes I feel it in different ways and sometimes it produces light effects, although I don't know if it is actually ever producing some form of visible light. It is more like a light that is perceived with the mind but not actual visible light. Ok, wait, that's it! Qi is something very mysterious. That is my definition of qi.

Edited August 18, 2011 by oat1239

[ChiDragon]

Even though it is pointed out to you that qi simply cannot just relate directly to air or oxygen or its effects on the body such as the production of ATP, because it is possible to absorb and accumalte qi without any special breathing (many here have no doubt experienced this) and qi can be transmitted across space from one person to another person or to an object and produce definite effects

 

OK. I'll take your word for it that qi simply cannot just relate directly to air or oxygen even though I believe it was working for me all this time. I will continue to do my deep breathing and advance to a higher level of Chi Kung while others are still wondering where Chi is coming from.

 

Anyway, it was a real pleasure talking to you and shared our differences of understanding about Chi.

[oat1239]

OK. I'll take your word for it that qi simply cannot just relate directly to air or oxygen even though I believe it was working for me all this time. I will continue to do my deep breathing and advance to a higher level of Chi Kung while others are still wondering where Chi is coming from.

Anyway, it was a real pleasure talking to you and shared our differences of understanding about Chi.

 

I don't think anyone has said that breathing is not used in some forms of qigong, Breathing certainly has a place there, there is no doubt. It really seems that we can absorb qi through breathing, but it also seems we can also absorb or accumulate qi other ways as well, so we can't just simply ignore that because it might not fit in with some preconception. I think that is all anyone is saying. You are quite entitled to your personal view of things. It is only when you make definitive statements about qi or qigong and suggest that others are not practicing right or they are understanding things wrong or they are not "true Taoists" simply because something doesn't fit your narrow defintiion, that people may feel the need to respond to you. You are also not the only one here who has made some progress in qigong, although people here likely practice a wide variety of practices. Good luck with your practice!

Edited August 19, 2011 by oat1239

[dawei]

:)ChiDragon,

"

1. We were talking about emitting Chi 5 to 10 feet away which an ordinary person cannot do."

ok, well yes that is a difference , i am at 3 feet range.

"2. You can do a google search on ATP."

thanks

i also feel that certain herb use can open one on the inside.

what do you guys think?

Yes, IMO some herbs can but may not "open" up as well as some practices (movement or meditation), depending on what needs to be opened.

[oat1239]

So, it seems we can gain qi from food and drink, and we can gain qi from air (oxygen). This can be viewed strictly from a physiological standpoint in regards to how the body absorbs nutrients and generates energy from food, and how the body uses oxygen to function as well, as ChiDragon has outlined. So from this perspective a form of qi can be viewed as actual physical characteristics of food and air and the physiological processes in the body which transform this 'qi' into useable forms of energy and sustenance for the body.

 

Another possible way to view it is that besides the obvious physical characteristics of food and air, that food and air also somehow contain qi in some form or other which we absorb when eating and breathing. So besides the physiological processing of the food and air we also gain or absorb qi from eating and breathing and this qi is used to replenish our overall internal qi which is stored in our 'energy centers' and flows through our meridians. Now this might seem like we are complicating things unnecessarily, since we can understand the body's functioning and gaining of physical energy through examining the physical properties of food and air and the body's physiological processes. However, what then flows through the meridians and is stored in various centers in the body such as the dantian?

 

Those who practice qigong may have experienced the definite sensations of something that feels like energy moving along meridians or vibrating strongly at certain centers in the body, and sometimes we can feel field like sensations around parts of our body or the whole body, or we feel field like or other sensations externally between one part of the body and another. In some qigong forms it feels like some sort of energy or field is flowing through us. A qigong healer can also project qi from their body to another person over a distance and the other person receiving this qi may feel various sensations from this projected qi and certain health problems may become healed. So, if qi is just physical properties and physiological processes, how can we tie this into the experiences of qi which can extend outside the body but which do not seem to relate directly to any known or easily measurable physical phenomena?

 

Here is another aspect to this. We have all heard stories of recluses who can apparently go for extended periods of time without food or water and their bodies remain healthy. One apparent example of this is a man named Prahlad Jani from India who was reportedly monitored 24 hours a day by Indian military doctors over a 15 day period and was observed to not eat or drink anything for those 15 days without any weakening or harmful effect to his body. He is about 82 years old. He also did not have to use the toilet for the whole 15 days. This man apparently claims he hasn't eaten or drunk anything in the last 65 years. At any rate he did survive the test of 15 days with no food or water with no problem which no ordinary person could do. Most people could go 15 days without eating anything without dying, although most would probably lose a fair bit of weight and become quite weak, but to also not drink anything for 15 days would put most people in a severely dehydrated state and some people might even die. 15 days is a very long time to go without drinking anything.

Medics baffled by man who doesn't eat

 

So, we have a reported case here where apparently someone was shown to be able to sustain their body without any harmful effects for 15 days without food and drink. So what was sustaining his body? This is why I say qi seems mysterious to me. In one way it can be seen to have a very strong relation to physical properties of things like food, drink, and air, but in other ways it seems to defy fitting into any known physical properties or phenomena. Could it be that qi can take many forms, including both physical and other forms? Or is qi something other than physical matter completely that interacts with all things in different ways and sustains them, and which has it own unique various properties and forms?

 

When we consider the person who is able to sustain their body for 15 days without food or drink, we might also consider that maybe qi is some sort of base or intrinsic driving force or energy which can take or invoke both physical and non-physical forms. Is qi the basic intrinsic 'substance' of the universe which can take all forms both physical and non-physical and which makes up everything in this universe? Thus when we talk about physical substances or physiological processes or energy or earth qi or heaven qi or universal qi or emitted qi or qi fields or original qi, we are talking about all the different forms that qi can take and all the different ways that qi can operate. Maybe that is an 'out of this world' explanation but when I personally consider all the different ways that the term qi is used and all the different ways qi is described, I really have to wonder if qi is not really just the basic core 'substance' of all things and all phenomena in this universe. Another simpler way to say it is that qi is something that is very mysterious.

 

 

-

Edited August 19, 2011 by oat1239

[Encephalon]

[oat1239]

I thught it's been fairly well established that chi is bioelectromagnetism that we can feel and manipulate when we tune up our nervous systems with chi kung and nei kung exercises.

 

The term bioelectromagnetism would imply electromagnetism generated within or by the body. That might sound like a nice scientific way to describe the sensations and properties of qi, but electromagnetic fields are something that can be readily measured and analyzed depending on the frequency and strength of the field. If it is something that is relatively weak, then can it really account for the strong effects and other phenomena that qi can produce within the body?

 

When a qigong healer emits qi it can produce very strong effects in the person receiving the qi, so one would expect some sort of corresponding strong electromagnetic field is being radiated from the qigong healer if electromagnetism is the explanation for radiated qi, yet although some experiments with qi healers do show some interesting associated physical phenomena such as certain types of electromagnetic phenomena or other energetic particles being present, from what I understand the levels measured are only quite small compared to the physical effects that can be induced by emitted qi.

 

I have received emitted qi from a qigong healer and felt a very strong field like sensation coming from his hand which was held at a distance of a couple of feet from my body. One would expect that if this were caused by a radiated electromagnetic field from the qigong healer that one would be able to measure a fairly strong electromagnetic field using the appropriate measuring instrument. I do not believe that such is the case at all. Some experiments I have read about have reported measurements of various physical phenomena associated with the external qi radiation, but the levels reported are quite small compared to what one would expect for the types of sensations and effects that are actually produced by the emitted qi on the subject. Also I have on numerous occasions stood within relatively strong electromagnetic fields in the RF range and do not feel much sensation whatsoever, although if one stands in a strong RF field for a while one can get surface skin and flesh burns. The higher the frequency the more the electromagnetic radiation can cause heat and burns. For example, microwaves, infrared light, and ultraviolet light. So although the emission of qi can apparently produce some measurable physical phenomena, to my knowledge the measured levels of the associated physical phenomena is at a relatively low level and would not seem to explain at all the kind of strong sensations and healing results that external qigong healing can produce.

 

We also have the reported cases of qigong masters and yoga masters who can reportedly go extended periods of time without eating or drinking. Now if I radiate myself with electromagnetic energy of different types and at different levels and combinations I have serious doubts that I would find frequencies or combinations of frequencies that could produce the same effects as radiated qi or which could sustain my body without food and water for extended periods of time. Some explanations might sound reasonable at first glance but when examined a little deeper they just don't really stand up to scrutiny. I have heard other terms thrown around like bioelectricity and biomagnetism as well, but electricity, magnetism, and electromagnetism are all readily measurable and analyzable physical phenomena, and if qi and qi emission related directly to such things it would seem a relative cinch to prove that the concept of qi is directly related to these things. Such is not the case at all, I believe.

 

-

Edited August 19, 2011 by oat1239

[Encephalon]

Those are good points. Where does it leave us, then? I'm entirely at peace with the ambiguity of it all. My practice is the best thing that's ever happened to me.

[宁]

How to recognize Qi? It tingles

[oat1239]

Those are good points. Where does it leave us, then? I'm entirely at peace with the ambiguity of it all. My practice is the best thing that's ever happened to me.

 

I made some suggestions in this regard a couple of posts up, but I am also quite content to view qi as something that is very mysterious and leave it at that. Even though I don't have an all encompassing definition for what qi is, it does not seem to hurt the effectiveness of my qigong practice. I follow the prescribed steps and the results come. That is what is important to me as well.

[dwai]

Thought this would be a good topic in helping to grow this community exiled from their own land

 

 

So, there may be some questions about how to recognize Chi and Jing. I have some myself, for example, when your stretching and you feel that stuff shoot up your spine -- is that Jing?

 

1) And for Chi, a good test is to hold your palms close together but not touching -- the energy felt between them is Chi -- so says Waysun Liao in "Tai Chi Classics." Now when moving chi through your body, into the dantien, or compressing it in the dantien, what are some errors people can make in mistaking something else for chi; is it all chi?

 

2) The same in circulating chi through the microcosmic orbit. Is is possible to just be circulating Jing instead of Chi and what would be the differences during and after?

 

I've heard some say the MCO can be done very easily without years of experience, others say it takes a very high level of expertise and that most people are not doing real MCO.

 

 

Chi can feel like the flow of blood in your body, but charged. It manifests in different people in different ways (and the same person can sense it differently based on time, condition of the body energetics). I feel it varyingly as pressure (condensing into my bones), as heat, as magnetic sensation, as an electric sensation. it feels cool, it feels warm.

 

The prime thing is to feel it and to be able to ramp it up with cultivation. I study in Master Liao's tradition from one of his direct students and we use the tai chi ball quite extensively in working with Chi. So in such a case, the ball (of qi or energy) is localized (like holding between the palms) or expanded, through our bodies (like the body is part of a giant bubble of energy).

 

When working with it in a localized manner, we play with it by aligning it with the three dan tians. Move it up and down, connect with the Sky energy, connect with Earth energy. Bounce it off the earth, shrink it, expand it (depending on what we intend to do with it). The idea is to first sense the flow of qi, then increase the flow of qi and then flow with the universal qi (or Tao).

 

First we move it then it moves us and then it doesn't matter...

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

From my past experience, I believe I have to change my tone of speech by using the terminology that the audience will be acceptable.

 

The way we recognize Chi was by the way of the physical changes in the body. During Chi Kung practice, the body was going through a cleansing and self healing period. Chi was flowing through the body to found toxic substances to be detoxified; regenerate missing numbers of cells; repair any damaged body tissues and to rid of body waste. Some people have some Chi sensation and some don't. The sensation only can be felt, only, and only if there are repairs need to be done to the body. In the event of repair, there are some sensations may be felt in different parts of the body. Those repaired areas are going a biological change to return to the normal condition. The Chi sensations were the feelings of the transition of the healing process rather than the Chi itself. The true recognition of Chi was the good refreshing and healthy feelings immediate after the practice. In general, the practitioner is a better person at all times.

[on the path]

From my past experience, I believe I have to change my tone of speech by using the terminology that the audience will be acceptable.

 

The way we recognize Chi was by the way of the physical changes in the body. During Chi Kung practice, the body was going through a cleansing and self healing period. Chi was flowing through the body to found toxic substances to be detoxified; regenerate missing numbers of cells; repair any damaged body tissues and to rid of body waste. Some people have some Chi sensation and some don't. The sensation only can be felt, only, and only if there are repairs need to be done to the body. In the event of repair, there are some sensations may be felt in different parts of the body. Those repaired areas are going a biological change to return to the normal condition. The Chi sensations were the feelings of the transition of the healing process rather than the Chi itself. The true recognition of Chi was the good refreshing and healthy feelings immediate after the practice. In general, the practitioner is a better person at all times.

 

Hi chidragon,

 

I must still press my point that one must define Qi before one then can recognize it truly as a manifestation in the body. It is so easy to delude oneself and others!!!

 

I refer back again to my first post which I was taught nearly thirty years ago about 'blood qi' and its signs etc. These all are part of TCM. Blood qi can be seen at the early stages of development and show the state of the internal qi and workings of the body. It is not just qigong that can stimulate but many other types of exercise can also. I feel the defining part of Qi will show us that any other types of exercise can also stimulate qi. Blood qi is the first signs of qi gathering more potential than normal. To develop the first stages of qi development requires us chaps to be completely celibate for some years. I do believe that conserving 'jing' is very important which one can't do if one is not!! I think we still haven't defined what qi is yet!!

[Aetherous]

[on the path]

And the protocol for the dames?

 

You fortunately do not lose vital 'jing', because female 'jing' is not linked to relations, so to speak.

[ChiDragon]

OTP...

Blood qi

 

How do you look into this term. Based on your understanding, is "blood qi" one single term or it is two separate terms as blood and qi...???

 

Is gi is flowing in the blood...??? or

Is the qi driving the blood flow..?

[on the path]

OTP...

Blood qi

 

How do you look into this term. Based on your understanding, is "blood qi" one single term or it is two separate terms as blood and qi...???

 

Is gi is flowing in the blood...??? or

Is the qi driving the blood flow..?

 

Both

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon,

 

 

 

That's not true. I don't know much about the subject, but research electrons. They carry and release energy, and unlike ATP, aren't bound to the physical form.

 

Consider how ATP functions:

 

 

 

Science is freakin' complicated.

 

Did you know ATP is in a form of bio-electric energy....???

Yes, Science is freakin' complicated. One is not able to grasp it in few minutes.

 

That's not true. I don't know much about the subject

Then, how did you come to a conclusion that is not true....??? I'll expect you to come back to be more knowledgeable and discuss the subject. Thank you very much.

Edited August 19, 2011 by ChiDragon

[oat1239]

You fortunately do not lose vital 'jing', because female 'jing' is not linked to relations, so to speak.

 

Actually I believe women lose jing through menstruation.

[Aetherous]

Did you know ATP is in a form of bio-electric energy....???

 

What?

 

Yes, Science is freakin' complicated. One is not able to grasp it in few minutes.

 

Exactly.

[ChiDragon]

 

Is qi is flowing in the blood...??? or

Is the qi driving the blood flow..?

 

Both

 

If qi is driving the blood flow, do we still need the heart to pump the blood then...???

Edited August 19, 2011 by ChiDragon

[on the path]

Actually I believe women lose jing through menstruation.

 

Women's 'jing' is a complicated affair and is to do with the making of eggs, not the menstruation. The jing lies in the ovaries and is not affected by menstruation. It is the same as the making of the sperm in men, But many millions are made each day (we hope!!!) which draw on vital jing. The eggs in a women's ovaries are already there, formed in the womb and stimulated to develop further only at puberty or when fertilized. So women do not lose their 'jing'. One could even go further and say inherited 'jing'/qi, but then we are going off the subject.

[on the path]

If qi is driving the blood flow, do we still need the heart to pump the blood then...???

 

Of course!

 

Blood flows better when the qi is strong and stimulated, everything works better. Good blood qi equals good organ and muscle condition. The jing is strong and is not being depleted. When the jing is not being depleted so the qi can start to build. When the qi is stimulated the 'blood qi can be seen in the hands at various times of the day, according to what one is doing. This takes us back to the definition of qi.