What is not Tao?

[Informer]

I was just wondering what sort of things you guys consider un-Taoist?

 

What sort of things are more Taoist?

 

What makes a Taoist a Taoist?

 

Thanks!

[Marblehead]

I was just wondering what sort of things you guys consider un-Taoist?

 

What sort of things are more Taoist?

 

What makes a Taoist a Taoist?

 

Thanks!

 

Hehehe. What questions! Like asking what color skin a particular god has.

 

I'll think on your questions for a while.

[Taomeow]

I think different taoists will respond differently.

 

One very taoist taoist asked me this question and led me toward thinking what he thinks -- to wit, that things "unnatural" are part of things "natural" just like "yin" is always part of "yang" and vice versa. I am still processing this idea. Here's some thoughts it has generated (work in progress, none carved in stone):

 

I guess it's a matter of proportions. If you have "yang within yin" it's still yin, having some yang within is its inherent attribute, in fact part of its yin-ness. ("Pure yang" ideas later in taoism are borrowings from Indo-European modalities. These are un-taoist ideas within taoism, similar to seeds of yang within yin, which follows the original premise of taoism and does not render it un-taoist.) If you have increased the proportion of yang within yin to half and half, you have "balance" -- and within "balance" things don't stay put, not even for a second, given the perpetual motion of the manifest world and the manifest-unmanifest interplay. One of them flips the balance to its side. Thus, yang within yin, should it overgrow yin, will flip it into yang, with seeds of yin within. Similarly, unnatural things within naturalness, if they grow to balance, will not stay put -- they will flip. Should they flip toward more unnatural than natural, we'll have an unnatural world, with seeds of naturalness within. When it reaches its peak unnaturalness it won't be able to grow any more unnatural because "pure unnaturalness" is as impossible as "pure yang," and so it will start moving in the opposite direction -- the seeds of naturalness within an unnatural world will grow.

 

So, the problem is local -- if you're born into a mostly-unnatural world, you can stunt the growth of things natural and speed up its collapse into naturalness, or you can stunt the growth of things unnatural and slow down or reverse this process, whichever you choose. "Taoists" are folks who choose to slow down this process, and taoist masters "graduated" to powerful sages may choose to reverse it. So, basically, things taoist are about co-creative choice, working with the universe in accordance with one's own preferences, imposing one's will on heaven and earth. Whereas "just going with the flow" is also taoist, but of a level of skill way inferior.

 

So what is un-taoist then? Imposing one's will on taoists -- forbidding the practices, burning books and temples, imprisoning people for what they're up to in their own body and mind, concealing the Way with many false ways. This is unnatural and therefore it will flip. Taoism is not something that can be overcome. If you can be overcome, you're un-taoist. If you're un-taoist, you are going to flip your world toward tao. There's no fooling the Way.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Nice, Taomeow.

 

Especially in regards to changing things but by using the nature of that thing to change it; not pushing things to be something they are not, something unnatural.

 

I would also add not pushing one's self to do things in an unnatural way; knowing when things are being done by program and pattern, and when they are in accord with one's inner harmony/soul/nature. This is not to discount discipline though, since somethings might be difficult because they are alien to us, but they can be adapted to without losing the center. Honesty has a lot to do with this.

 

Another thing which is very Taoist is to learn from nature the way that children learn by emulating people. Maybe someone else has more to say about that..

[Marblehead]

Nice posts Y'all. I'm still thinking.

[doc benway]

 

One very taoist taoist asked me this question and led me toward thinking what he thinks -- to wit, that things "unnatural" are part of things "natural" just like "yin" is always part of "yang" and vice versa. I am still processing this idea. Here's some thoughts it has generated (work in progress, none carved in stone):

This is something I've wrestled with for a long time. I am an organic manifestation of Dao so how can anything I do or think be un-Daoist? So is everything I do and everything society and culture does somehow "unnatural" even though it all springs from nature directly or indirectly? And so on.... It is an area I think is worthy of serious consideration.

 

Whereas "just going with the flow" is also taoist, but of a level of skill way inferior.

I really enjoyed your post and take issue with only this.

Vis a vis the above consideration, I think that figuring out "just going with the flow" and truly living that is the highest level of attainment. First I need to understand the flow then understand what it means to go with that in all things at all times.

That is nothing less than a life of purity, the life of the sage, Wu Wei.

I find De much more approachable and much easier...

I suspect we are saying the same thing with slightly different language but I could be wrong...

[Birch]

This is something I've wrestled with for a long time. I am an organic manifestation of Dao so how can anything I do or think be un-Daoist? So is everything I do and everything society and culture does somehow "unnatural" even though it all springs from nature directly or indirectly? And so on.... It is an area I think is worthy of serious consideration.

 

 

I really enjoyed your post and take issue with only this.

Vis a vis the above consideration, I think that figuring out "just going with the flow" and truly living that is the highest level of attainment. First I need to understand the flow then understand what it means to go with that in all things at all times.

That is nothing less than a life of purity, the life of the sage, Wu Wei.

I find De much more approachable and much easier...

I suspect we are saying the same thing with slightly different language but I could be wrong...

Yes I need to ponder this one too:-) I think that going with the flow is a high practice if the flow itself is in harmony. Harmonizing with something that is out of harmony could often result in something not that great for the individual although in the wider scheme it would be "balanced". Straw dogs and all that.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Also, going with the flow, to me, is often done to change the flow, depending on what the flow is. Know the flow so that you can change it without disrupting it's flowingness. Aikido is one example of this..

 

A lot of creativity happens just on the edge of the flow. Going with it and scooping things up along the edges, so the flow keeps propelling you in an easy direction while you bring things in from the limits.

[lifeforce]

I find De much more approachable and much easier...

 

Interesting. I find the concept of virtue to be easier, but to put it into actual practice in everyday life is much more difficult.

[Marblehead]

Yes I need to ponder this one too:-) I think that going with the flow is a high practice if the flow itself is in harmony. Harmonizing with something that is out of harmony could often result in something not that great for the individual although in the wider scheme it would be "balanced". Straw dogs and all that.

 

Excellent consideration, I think!

[Marblehead]

Also, going with the flow, to me, is often done to change the flow, depending on what the flow is. Know the flow so that you can change it without disrupting it's flowingness. Aikido is one example of this..

 

A lot of creativity happens just on the edge of the flow. Going with it and scooping things up along the edges, so the flow keeps propelling you in an easy direction while you bring things in from the limits.

 

Well Damn! I have to point this one out as well! Great consideration.

[Marblehead]

Interesting. I find the concept of virtue to be easier, but to put it into actual practice in everyday life is much more difficult.

 

Well said and I will take this opportunity to comment.

 

Everything that is, has been and will be is Tao. It cannot be otherwise. Even Steve's imaginations are Tao. But as Tao is everything we, individuals aspects of Tao, are obviously not Tao.

 

However, The Way of Tao is very observable and can be followed in one's life. True, Lifeforce, this is not always easy but then, did anyone suggest to you that life was going to be easy?

 

Observe the processes of nature, including man, and follow them as well as possible but also be cautious of the processes of man - they are often times decieving. Regretfully, this is an element of Tao as well. Even the processes of Tao makes things go "Boom" sometimes.

[Stigweard]

What is not Dao? Everything.

 

What is not Dao? Nothing.

 

Dao is in spinning of a prayer wheel and the incense that rises. Dao is in arc of the assassins knife and the blood that falls.

 

Yet in this infinite inclusiveness, is there a way to follow? Is there a path of preference?

 

And yet if we designate a preference are we shattering the unity of Dao and thus our own unity?

 

Thus are we destined to be lost, cast adrift like a Autumn leaf upon cascading waters?

 

And yet in that bleak desolation do the currents reveal the way?

[Marblehead]

Oh Stig! So many questions! So few answers.

[Stigweard]

Oh Stig! So many questions! So few answers.

LOL ... the way it's meant to be perhaps

[Informer]

What is what is?

 

[stan herman]

What is what is?

 

 

That's the way all philosophical discussions must end

[Wuji108]

This is sort of like the question of what is evil - what is not of this world or nature or...the universe... The Tao is going with the flow until you can direct the flow and then go with the flow that you direct. I was taught that from a Taoist perspective the only evil is to teach fear of god...So, the only un-Taoist thing would be to teach fear of god. Fear of god separates us from the source or Tao of all and removes us from our path of union with the Tao...who wants union with that which they fear?

[Marblehead]

This is sort of like the question of what is evil - what is not of this world or nature or...the universe... The Tao is going with the flow until you can direct the flow and then go with the flow that you direct. I was taught that from a Taoist perspective the only evil is to teach fear of god...So, the only un-Taoist thing would be to teach fear of god. Fear of god separates us from the source or Tao of all and removes us from our path of union with the Tao...who wants union with that which they fear?

 

Nice post and good point about "fear".

[Informer]

This is sort of like the question of what is evil - what is not of this world or nature or...the universe... The Tao is going with the flow until you can direct the flow and then go with the flow that you direct. I was taught that from a Taoist perspective the only evil is to teach fear of god...So, the only un-Taoist thing would be to teach fear of god. Fear of god separates us from the source or Tao of all and removes us from our path of union with the Tao...who wants union with that which they fear?

 

What about when the fear evolves into genuine spirituality?

 

Who's to say that they would have any sort of spirituality at all?

[stan herman]

"天下太平 ... Tian Xia Tai Ping "There is peace under Heaven"

 

and war too...

[Marblehead]

"天下太平 ... Tian Xia Tai Ping "There is peace under Heaven"

 

and war too...

 

... and a time for love

... and a time for hate

 

All things in their proper season.

[Adishakti]

Intellectual discussions, discussions not from the heart, arguments?

That's why the Tao Te Ching is concise and terse.

 

[thelerner]

Intellectual discussions, discussions not from the heart, arguments?

That's why the Tao Te Ching is concise and terse.

yup.

 

 

I might also say maps and words are not the tao.

[Stigweard]

yup.

 

 

I might also say maps and words are not the tao.

LOL but simultaneously they are not not the tao.

 

Hehehehe