Da Yi Sheng Shui and I Ching?

[lienshan]

Da Yi Sheng Shui was bound, physical attached, to the Guodian Dao De Jing version.

That's why I'm interested in exploring the connection of the two texts.

Da Yi Sheng Shui has been translated by communist and non-daoist scholars,

whom didn't know, what they were translating, and knew nothing about divination.

So let's have a "daoist" discussion about if or how the two text are connected?

 

 

Da Yi Sheng Shui related lines:

 

The can be a lump of earth and overflowing causes the envy-made Classic of everything.

 

To administer heaven isn't enough because:

The lowest height of west and north acts powerful.

Earth and heaven are not enough:

The highest low of east and south acts powerful.

The moreover surplus from the lowest of the not enough from what's highest is

the moreover surplus from the highest of the not enough from what's lowest.

 

Try identify the two in bold in the trigram scheme (north is below in China)?

The Xiantian diagram you've posted seems to be commented on by someone addressing (or trying to figure out, rather) why it couldn't stay put. "The lower height of west and north" means Northwest, the hexagram Zhen, associated with Spring and thunder and the first impulse of motion within the stillness of Xiantian. "Acts powerful" refers to this impulse.

My own answer was like yours, but then I realized, that "west and north" and "east and south"

are connecting the trigram "Heaven" to either "Water" or "Fire"

and likewise the trigram "Earth" to either "Water" or "Fire".

 

That'll say, the two powerful trigrams are "Water" and "Fire"!

 

The reason why may be that the trigramcircle can be viewed from the inside and the outside.

The difference is, that only "Water" and "Fire" change their positions in the sequence!

(try write the eight trigrams in a row on a paper, and then turn the paper upsidedown)

"Water" and "Fire" are too mentioned at last outside their position in Shuo Gua §3:

 

(The symbols of) heaven and earth received their determinate positions;

(those for) mountains and collections of water interchanged their influences;

(those for) thunder and wind excited each other the more;

and (those for) water and fire did each other no harm.

(Then) among these eight symbols there was a mutual communication.

The numbering of the past is a natural process.;

the knowledge of the coming is anticipation.

Therefore in the Yi we have (both) anticipation (and the natural process).

 

http://ctext.org/book-of-changes/shuo-gua

Edited August 14, 2011 by lienshan

[dawei]

[Taomeow]

Dawei,

 

excellent!

 

I'll have more to say, gotta go now...

[lienshan]

Astronomy is a blind spot to me, so thanks for your great illustrative explanation

 

I think your looking in the wrong place for a correspondence to understanding the text

I followed your advice and arrived at this explanation:

 

To administer heaven isn't enough because:

The lowest height of west and north acts powerful.

 

The sun sets in west and north, that'll say, there's something below the soil.

 

Earth and heaven are not enough:

The highest low of east and south acts powerful.

 

The sun rises in east and south, that'll say, there's something above the sun.

 

The moreover surplus from the lowest of the not enough from what's highest is

the moreover surplus from the highest of the not enough from what's lowest.

 

The moreover surplus of below the soil is the sun.

The moreover surplus of above the sun is the soil.

 

Da Yi Sheng Shui seems to express a flat six layer view at the universe,

expressed in the six lines structure of a hexagram:

 

The fifth, the Son of Heaven's line

The second, the Minister's line

 

The fifth line = Above the air is similar to the word heaven

The fourth line = the air line

The third line = the soil line

The second line = Below the soil is similar to the word earth

 

But are both the sixth line above and the first line below symbolizing water?

Edited August 15, 2011 by lienshan

[dawei]

Da Yi Sheng Shui seems to express a flat six layer view at the universe,

expressed in the six lines structure of a hexagram:

 

The fifth, the Son of Heaven's line

The second, the Minister's line

 

The fifth line = Above the air is similar to the word heaven

The fourth line = the air line

The third line = the soil line

The second line = Below the soil is similar to the word earth

 

But are both the sixth line above and the first line below symbolizing water?

Your now making Heaven and Earth both Yang lines???

 

A hexagram goose chase is not the answer to an astronomy blind spot

 

Tai Yi was the Supreme Deity of the Sky, as Hou Ti was of Earth. It is a cosmology with similar passages to the DDJ but is most notable as an imperial religion solidified by Emperor Wu of Han. That the story originally is found in Chu is not surprising given their strong Shamanism. I'll provide a few more links in hopes you give up this up as the history is very clear on what Tai Yi represented.

Edited August 15, 2011 by dawei

[lienshan]

Your now making Heaven and Earth both Yang lines???

 

A hexagram goose chase is not the answer to an astronomy blind spot

Maybe this hexagram is more illustrative:

 

 

DA GUO (hex 28)

 

I'm thinking of the socalled "nuclear trigrams" (Hu Ti) or "nuclear hexagrams" (Hu Gua).

That'll say the lines 2-3-4 made the lower trigram and the lines 3-4-5 the upper trigram.

They are according to Bradford Hartcher known since the fourth century BC.

They were maybe a Huang Lao invention, if I read the Da Yi Sheng Shui text correct:

 

The fifth line = Above the air is similar to the word heaven

The fourth line = the air line

The third line = the soil line

The second line = Below the soil is similar to the word earth

[dawei]

Early Chinese Religion: Part One: Shang through Han (1250 BC-220 AD)

 

"The greatest innovation in the imperial cults of the Western Han was without doubt the celebration by Emperor Wu of the cult to Taiyi in 113 B.C"

 

"The Ruler sacrificed to Taiyi in the center, the place originally occupied by the Yellow Emperor, who was now relegated to the SOUTHEAST of the alter... along with the Great One and the Five Emperors, a multitude of gods were honored, including the Sun, Moon, and the BIG DIPPER."

 

This Ganquan sacrifice replaced the sacrifices of Yong and Feng (where Taiyi was normally sacrificed) which was observed up through Emperor Wen.

 

The Chinese sky during the Han: constellating stars and society

 

阴德 - The power of Yin.

 

"This Taoist indication of secret power concerns the invisible power (qi 气) exerted by by Taiyi or Tianyi from their high position... Furthermore Jin Shu mentioned Yinde and Yangde 阳德 (Virtue of Yang) instead of Yinde... in that case yin plus yang plus yi (One) makes three... yin and yang are the two halves of Tianyi, the Heavenly One."

 

Taoism and the arts of China

 

"... Taiyi was a cosmogonic god, a creator of the universe whose actions mirror those of the Tao... Taiyi is the first god described in the "Nine Songs" a series of shamanistic hymns found in the ancient anthology of the Songs of Chu (Chuci)."

 

The Songs of Chu and the "Nine Songs" are generally attributed to the first great poet Qu Yuan who lived around 300 B.C.

 

A brief writing called the "Heavenly Questions" is also attributed to Qu Yuan and is a series of questions which covers a wide range of mythology. In here, Yin and Yang are called "darkness and light" and wonders how they came together. This is an unusual reference to their original and unrelated meaning (shady and sunny) in the oracle bones. As well he asks about the "eight pillars" and why they were too short in the SOUTHEAST.

 

"The inscription for Laozi (Laozi ming), the late Han stele documenting Laozi's divination, states that Laozi "concentraing his thinking on the cinnabar field [dan tian], saw Great Unity (Taiyi) in his purple chamber [gallbladder], became one with the Tao, and transformed into an immortal."

 

In Taoist inner alchemy, Tai Yi resides in the Purple Chamber and moves along the three fields of the body (ie: Three dan tians). In other writings he resides in the upper dan tian.

 

The Book of the Center says: "The Tao is me, it is the Supreme Lord of the central summit... the Pole Star which shines on my forehead, between my eyebrows, like the sun (it is) the Great August Emperor of Heaven. It is my energy, I was born of that energy (breath)."

 

Ge Hong's Bapozi, chapter 18 has sections called "Guarding the One" and "Meditating on the One". The latter begins:

"The One resides at the North Pole,

in the midst of the abyss.

In front is the Hall of Light (mingtang-upper dan tian),

behind is the Crimson Palace (jianggong - middle dan tian).

Imposing is the Flowery Canopy (huagai - third eye between eyebrows),

great is the Golden Pavilion (jinlou)! "

 

Classical Chinese literature: an anthology of translations, Volume 1

 

"Emperor Wu was a keen patron of Shamans and had a weakness for lavish ritual, particularly for night-time rituals involving massed choirs and troops of dancers... he was introduced to the worship of Tai Yi by his favorite Shamans. Tai Yi was 'their' god--the god whom they would undertake to summon into his presence."

 

Taiyi on the Move (206BC—25AD) - pictures

Edited August 15, 2011 by dawei

[lienshan]

"... Taiyi was a cosmogonic god, a creator of the universe whose actions mirror those of the Tao

... Taiyi is the first god described in the "Nine Songs" a series of shamanistic hymns

found in the ancient anthology of the Songs of Chu (Chuci)."

 

The Songs of Chu and the "Nine Songs" are generally attributed to the first great poet Qu Yuan

who lived around 300 B.C.

That Da Yi was mainstream Taoism 350 - 300 BC fits with that Da Yi Sheng Shui buried in Guodian 312 BC,

and lost influence when Laozi's critique in Dao De Jing became known among the Huang Lao members,

and ended up as a sect worshipping a god named Da Yi in early Han dynasty times.

 

 

Your link to the Mawangdui painting looks most interesting. I look at four personifications

(heaven, air, soil, earth) of the four hexagramlines 2-3-4-5, which make the nuclear hexagrams.

I'm still not quite sure, which one of the persons who represents which one of the lines?

The 64 hexagrams can be divided in four groups of 16 equal to Da Yi Sheng Shui's four seasons:

 

The return of yin and yang mutually assist by completing the four seasons.

The return of the four seasons mutually assist by completing cold and heat.

What's cold and heat and what's the four seasons are the birth of yin and yang.

This is why the Great One conceals physical water and moves physical seasons.

 

 

The four season's 16 nuclear hexagrams can be reduced to these four nuclear hexagrams:

 

 

Heaven hexagram 1 Earth hexagram 2 Already hexagram 63 Not yet hexagram 64

 

Relating to these Da Yi Sheng Shui lines (Already = "insight" and Not yet = "spirit"):

 

The return of heaven and earth mutually assist by completing insight and spirit.

The return of insight and spirit mutually assist by completing yin and yang.

What's yin and yang is the birth of insight and spirit.

What's insight and spirit is the birth of heaven and earth.

Edited August 16, 2011 by lienshan

[Taomeow]

I can't come close to agreeing with your translation. Even a small point: It is not clear that "Tian" should be understood as "heaven" as there is a comparison made between "soil is to earth" as "qi is to [what]? Qi is to heaven? I personally question that. Tian is possibly simply the "Sky" to convey more of the ancient understanding of "qi" as vapor or air. But, I think your looking in the wrong place for a correspondence to understanding the text; you need to look at ancient Chinese astronomy.

 

What is Da [Tai] Yi? It was a deity said to reside at the Polar [North] Star. This is the rotational point of the big dipper. The historian Sima Qian described it as: The Big Dipper served as the Emperor's chariot and demonstrated his control of the four cardinal points by revolving around the center (North Star). The Big Dipper also keeps separate the yin and yang, maintains the balance of the Five Elements, and regulates the seasons and the calendar.

 

This is how they noted seasonal changes. When the Big Dipper points East, it's spring; when the Big Dipper points South, it's summer; when the Big Dipper points West, it's fall; when the Big Dipper points North, it's winter. Thus, this was how a 'year' was understood.

 

Looking at the last line of bundle 1-8, it states: "completed one year and stopped". This phrase is also found in other ancient Chu manuscripts.

 

What to make of the 'northwest' and 'southeast' section?

 

What divides these two sections in astronomy? The milky way, which is prominent in ancient China and understood as the source of Water; thus, this is why the text says the Great one can hide in the Water.

 

 

An ancient coin with the Milky Way running through the middle, diving North and West from South and East. The Big Dipper can be seen in the upper part.

 

Also, one should consider the ancient story of Nu Wa who mended the heavens with pillars and after she died Gong Gong and Zhuan Xu competed to be the ruler. Realizing defeat, Gong Gong is said to have head butted Bu Zhou Mountain in the northwest corner of earth breaking a pillar and causing heaven to tilt [NW] causing the sun, moon, and stars to drift that direction; A void was created on earth in the south east and the rivers rushed that direction.

 

 

The cosmograph (shi 式) is the round sky sitting over the square earth and it's four directions. The Big Dipper rotations about the Polar Star (Tai Yi) to describe it's movement through the four seasons. This is a divination device which is the precursor to the use of a magnetic spoon. "Shi" is found five times in the DDJ (three chapters) although none of them are in the Guodian LZ.

 

The Big Dipper and the Little Dipper are also known as the Big Bear and the Little Bear, both female, and the Big Bear is thought of as the mother of the Little Bear who feeds her, well, milk.

 

The cross formed by the Big Dipper pointing to four cardinal directions is the mother of all crosses including the true (and hidden) meaning of that of christianity. The Rose Cross of Rosicrucians and all the rose-pattern architectural designs in so many of Europe's cathedrals start making more sense if one considers the taoist alchemical name for Polaris -- the Purple Rose.

 

Dawei, do you happen to know how the I Ching's 64 hexagrams relate to the 64 positions ("offices") of Taisui?

[dawei]

Dawei, do you happen to know how the I Ching's 64 hexagrams relate to the 64 positions ("offices") of Taisui?

No... and I don't know what Taisui is. I'm all ears.

[Birch]

The Big Dipper and the Little Dipper are also known as the Big Bear and the Little Bear, both female, and the Big Bear is thought of as the mother of the Little Bear who feeds her, well, milk.

 

The cross formed by the Big Dipper pointing to four cardinal directions is the mother of all crosses including the true (and hidden) meaning of that of christianity. The Rose Cross of Rosicrucians and all the rose-pattern architectural designs in so many of Europe's cathedrals start making more sense if one considers the taoist alchemical name for Polaris -- the Purple Rose.

 

Dawei, do you happen to know how the I Ching's 64 hexagrams relate to the 64 positions ("offices") of Taisui?

 

You know, it's pretty rare to attend such amazing insights as and when they occur

[lienshan]

Dawei, do you happen to know how the I Ching's 64 hexagrams relate to the 64 positions ("offices") of Taisui?

The 16 nuclear hexagrams relate to the 64 hexagrams positions by four variations of WATER!

The related Da Yi Sheng Shui text lines:

 

The return of the four seasons mutually assist by completing cold and heat.

The return of cold and heat mutually assist by completing damp and fluid.

The return of damp and heat mutually assist by completing time and end.

Therefore what's time is the birth of damp and fluid.

What's damp and fluid is the birth of cold and heat.

What's cold and heat and what's the four seasons are the birth of yin and yang.

 

cold means "ice" that'll say crystalized water below relating to the winter season.

heat means "vapor" that'll say vapored water above relating to the summer season.

damp means "damp" that'll say moisted water above relating to the autumn season.

fluid means "fluid" that'll say fluid water below relating to the spring season.

 

The first line and the sixth topline of a hexagram do not belong to the nuclear hexagram.

These two lines represent four possibilities: whole/whole, broken/broken, whole/broken, broken/whole,

corresponding to the four variations of water. Which possibility is which variation?

 

Soil and not Water is thus equal to the trigram Kan according to Da Yi Sheng Shui!

This explains a difference between the Received Shuo Gua and the Mawangdui Shuo Gua:

 

Kan and Li don't harm each other (the Received version; Kan = Soil and Li = Air)

Kan and Li do harm each other (the Mawangdui version; Kan = Water and Li = Fire)

 

The oracle described in Da Yi Sheng Shui is named "the envymade Classic of Everything".

I read "envymade" as saying, that it's made like the Zhouyi, that it uses the 64 hexagrams,

but that it differs from the Zhouyi concerning how to make a reading of a hexagram.

 

The oracle described in Da Yi Sheng Shui must be the socalled Gui Cang oracle

Some fragmentory samples have been exavacated e.g. in Wang-jia-tai in the former Qin.

Some scholars say (without proof), that it's the ancient Shang Dynasty Book of Change.

Some of the hexagram names differ between the Zhouyi and Gui Cang, e.g. discussed here:

 

http://zhouyi.sdu.edu.cn/english/newsxitong/selectedPapers/2006517175846.htm

 

The most interesting is the name discussion of the hexagramnumbers 63 and 64

because they symbolize "insight" and "spirit" in my reading of Da Yi Sheng Shui:

 

The return of damp and heat mutually assist by completing time and end.

 

because "time" and "end" in the above textline might point to these two hexagrams?

The Gui Cang hexagram 64 name is "juan" meaning "end" etc. etc. etc.

Edited August 17, 2011 by lienshan

[dawei]

The 16 nuclear hexagrams relate to the 64 hexagrams positions by four variations of WATER!

I note you don't even try to explain what is Tai Sui....Tai Sui (太岁). At least I looked into it. Well, that is my first try. And I'll later respond to what the Tai Yi On the Move picture appears to be... Hint: What has four faces in ancient china?

 

---

 

I think I'll just stop contributing here... it is really getting too crazy for my taste.

Edited August 17, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

Is there a need to respond to lienshan......??? :D :D

[lienshan]

Is there a need to respond to lienshan......??? :D :D

I answered, but he didn't understand my answer: is that my problem?

 

The 6th and first lines of a nuclear hexagram are the origin of TaiSui.

Above is Jupiter (the time) and below is the false star (the end).

There are four variations decided by the consistence of water.