Meditation

[ffvii]

What is the goal or purpose of meditation and how do we do it?

[lifeforce]

Different people have different goals or purposes, and the methods to reach those goals and purposes are also different.

My personal meditation practice involves sitting in full lotus with lightly closed eyes, natural breathing.

No counting of breaths, no control of breathing, no 'following' the breath. Just naturally breathing, in ... and out...

Very calming and peaceful.

I don't like to use the word 'goal' as this implies a final destination for my practice.

Purpose is much better. My purpose is to tame the 'monkey mind' and to 'just be'. No dogma, no rituals. Naturalness.

[ffvii]

Different people have different goals or purposes, and the methods to reach those goals and purposes are also different.

My personal meditation practice involves sitting in full lotus with lightly closed eyes, natural breathing.

No counting of breaths, no control of breathing, no 'following' the breath. Just naturally breathing, in ... and out...

Very calming and peaceful.

I don't like to use the word 'goal' as this implies a final destination for my practice.

Purpose is much better. My purpose is to tame the 'monkey mind' and to 'just be'. No dogma, no rituals. Naturalness.

Hmm what do you do though? just breath? what do you think of? nothing?

[konchog uma]

i think at first it isn't good to try to think of nothing. you can frustrate yourself if you think that the mind will just quiet down if you sit in a cross legged position. i would recommend just watching the mind, seeing what it thinks and how your internal dialogue starts and how easily it gets away from you. being aware of your own mechanism over time will help you to quiet the mind at will, and to gain a state of internal quietude eventually.

 

i think that accepting thoughts as natural and watching what you tend to focus on when you are "trying" to quiet the mind is more beneficial than wrestling with the mind's natural tendency to express itself. maybe if you just sat with a general intention to quiet the dialogue (knowing that this takes time and practice), but accepting whatever happens as natural, you would find it more beneficial. if your mind gets away from you, just smile and be aware of it. the silence happens by itself with gentle intention.

 

there are so many different ways to meditate it boggles my poor mind. study as many schools and techniques as you can, and when you find one you want to try, try it. try a couple. see what works for you and how/why it works.

 

just stick with it (meditation in general) for a while, even 5-10 minutes a day over time will make a difference

 

 

Hmm what do you do though? just breath? what do you think of? nothing?

[doc benway]

What is the goal or purpose of meditation and how do we do it?

This is a loaded question and as you begin to delve into meditation you will make all sorts of wonderful discoveries - or, like many, you may just get bored, give up, and go on as before.

 

One could say that the purpose of meditation is to achieve or realize a condition from which there is no need be any different than we already are at that moment.

 

I practice two major types:

One is a Daoist method that involves very specific mental exercises and integrates extremely well with activities like Taijiquan and Qigong but also becomes very applicable to many activities in daily life.

The other is very much what anamatva describes below and I intersperse this with the Daoist techniques (in fact it is a commonly employed technique in Daoist methods).

 

 

i think at first it isn't good to try to think of nothing. you can frustrate yourself if you think that the mind will just quiet down if you sit in a cross legged position. i would recommend just watching the mind, seeing what it thinks and how your internal dialogue starts and how easily it gets away from you. being aware of your own mechanism over time will help you to quiet the mind at will, and to gain a state of internal quietude eventually.

 

i think that accepting thoughts as natural and watching what you tend to focus on when you are "trying" to quiet the mind is more beneficial than wrestling with the mind's natural tendency to express itself. maybe if you just sat with a general intention to quiet the dialogue (knowing that this takes time and practice), but accepting whatever happens as natural, you would find it more beneficial. if your mind gets away from you, just smile and be aware of it. the silence happens by itself with gentle intention.

 

there are so many different ways to meditate it boggles my poor mind. study as many schools and techniques as you can, and when you find one you want to try, try it. try a couple. see what works for you and how/why it works.

 

just stick with it (meditation in general) for a while, even 5-10 minutes a day over time will make a difference

 

This is an excellent approach that I find easy and effective.

First sit comfortably. It can be anything as long as the spine is upright and balanced. If sitting in a chair the thighs should be relatively parallel to the ground. Lotus, Burmese, or half lotus are fine. Comfort and stability are all that count.

 

Then just sit. Thoughts will come and go - mostly come. Don't fight it. Just notice them. Try not to add anything to them intentionally, they'll be busy enough without your help. Notice when you are in the thoughts rather than watching them and simply go back to watching. And you can also pay a bit of attention to how it feels to be in your body and to any sensory input (sounds, vibration, smells) but just notice, no need to add commentary or editorial.

 

And just sit and do exactly this. Sit, feel yourself, notice the thoughts as they arise and depart, and you're doing it. Start with 5 minutes and gradually work up to 20 minutes a day. That's a great start.

[de_paradise]

yup, nothing special. The goal of meditation is the goal of alchemy or spiritual cultivation in general, which is to acheive the immortal mind, dissolving the boundary between your body-mind and the universes body-mind.In Buddhism, its to achieve progressively deep states which we could call samadhi or dissolutions. You know these states are just so completely alien to your normal human experience. Anyway, the 9th dissolution, the clean-clear or blue void would be a pretty decent goal. Im just casually summing up, you know, because often people ask me what the goal of my meditations is, since I meditate many hours per day.

[suninmyeyes]

Some techniques are usually used for concentration, but meditation happens by itself ,it does not involve doing of any kind.

The goal/reason why I do it would be ( depending on the mood) pleasure, having a 'psychic shower',curiosity, reprogramming ,deeply resting- best rest ever,exploring my own potential, looking for answers..

I do admit loving being in meditative state and just sitting.It is so good and often makes me late for work in the morning,just cant force myself to get up.

 

The understanding that meditations brought me is all I have in a way,my security.

My security is in not fearing uncertainty ,opening myself wider and wider to life.

At some point this sense of well being and ease starts transforming old behavioural patterns and points of view, and a sense of peace tiptoes into life..

Edited August 16, 2011 by suninmyeyes

[doc benway]

The understanding that meditations brought me is all I have in a way,my security.

My security is in not fearing uncertainty ,opening myself wider and wider to life.

At some point this sense of well being and ease starts transforming old behavioural patterns and points of view, and a sense of peace tiptoes into life..

I just wanted to be able to look at this again...

 

[suninmyeyes]

Now I am feeling to send you one too steve!

[ChiDragon]

The goal and purpose of Meditation is to have the mind reaching an empty or vacuous state. The purpose of the practice is to help the mind to see and hear nothing in an disturbing and busy environment. The ultimate goal is to train the mind to be calm and poised in any adversity. Another word, you are calm as a standing mountain even someone curse at you or slap you on the face. However, that was considered to be the ultimate state of meditation. Can it be done...???

 

Any true Taoists out there....???

Edited August 17, 2011 by ChiDragon

[宁]

Any true Taoists out there....???

 

No, just you! Lonely enough? If so, be a darling and join the gang of bums..

[ChiDragon]

No, just you! Lonely enough? If so, be a darling and join the gang of bums..

 

Yes, I didn't call myself the forlorn Taoist for nothing......

Edited August 17, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ffvii]

Can you meditate while walking, running, standing, or with your eyes opened?

[ChiDragon]

Can you meditate while walking, running, standing, or with your eyes opened?

NO, there was no such thing as "Walking meditation". I don't know how people came up with this terminology...???

 

 

Wild, wild West......

Edited August 18, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

NO, there was no such thing as "Walking meditation". I don't know how people came up with this terminology...???

 

 

Er, Zen master Dogen, father of Zen Buddhism in Japan, actually. They do walking meditation between sets of sitting meditation. They are supposed to keep the same mind as during meditation. It's also to bring circulation back into the legs.

 

There are many kinds of meditation you can do when out and about, and some sects expects adepts to maintain the heart-mind at all times.

[ChiDragon]

Peace, I'll not argue about that.....

 

 

Edited to add:

I might considered it would be alertness, awareness or vigilance.

Edited August 18, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Peace, I'll not argue about that.....

 

. "It is the tree which can bend that does not break." Peace

 

 

Here's something that I've come upon recently which I

 

[From "Scripture for The Daily Internal Practice" Komjathy]

 

As expressed by Ma Yu 馬鈺 (Danyang 丹陽 [Elixir Yang]; 1123-

1183), the successor of Wang Chongyang 王重陽 (1113-1170) and

the second patriarch of Complete Perfection Daoism,

 

“Daily practice involves never deceiving or mocking heaven

and earth. Always train yourself diligently. Cherish each

moment. Do not pass the day in vain. Decrease your sleep, as

this is something that [ordinary] people desire. You should

rectify your misdeeds, but this is not [only] to be done

through seated meditation. You should keep your heart-mind

stable for a long time. Whether walking, standing, sitting, or

lying down, follow the Dao. All adepts should quit giving

rise to thoughts. Quickly seek out innate nature (xing 性）and

life-destiny (ming 命) . If you can just purify the heart-mind

and abandon desires, you will become a spirit immortal

(shenxian 神仙). Acknowledge nothing else and stop having

doubts! These are proper and true words. You only need to be

constantly clear and constantly pure.” (Danyang zhiyan 丹陽

直言, DZ 1234, la)

 

And in the same public talk, Ma Danyang admonishes,

 

“Each day, you must not forget the matter of daily practice.

Daily practice consists of two types: daily external practice

(wai riyong 外曰用）and daily internal practice (nei riyong 內

日用).

“Considering daily external practice, you are strongly

forbidden to see the faults of others, boast about your own

virtue, envy the wise and talented, give rise to worldly

thoughts that are the fire of ignorance, produce feelings of

superiority over the masses, [discriminate] between self and

other or right and wrong, or speak of hatred and affection.

“Considering daily internal practice, quit giving rise to

doubtful thoughts. Never forget the internal. Whether

wandering about or standing and sitting, you should clear the

heart-mind and discard desires. Have nothing that hangs on

or hinders [your progress]. Do not get defiled and do not

become attached. In perfect clarity and perfect purity, wander

about freely according to your aspirations. Consistently

throughout the day contemplate the Dao in the same way a

hungry person thinks of food or a thirsty person of drink. If

you become aware of the slightest imbalance, you must

correct it. If you train yourself in this way, you will become a

spirit immortal.” (Danyang zhiyan, DZ 1234, 2a-2b)

Similarly, Hao Datong 郝大通 (Guangning 廣寧 [Expansive

Tranquility]; 1140-1213) advises the aspiring Complete Perfection

adept as follows:

“Daily practice involves refining qi when residing in quiet

places and refining spirit when residing in noisy places.

Walking, standing, sitting and lying down are the Dao.

Throughout day and night do not get confused by what

appears before you. If you sleep for one hour, this is an hour

lost. Practice day by day and you will gradually gain

accomplishment. If you refrain from sleeping for one

thousand days, your training will become complete. Do not

believe others when they speak about ‘bones of destiny'

(sugu 宿骨)” (Zhenxian yulu 真仙語錄, DZ 1256, 1.20a)

8

Qiu Chuji 丘處機(Changchun 長春[Perpetual Spring]; 1148-1127),

the third patriarch and national leader of the developing Quanzhen

monastic order, also discusses daily internal and daily external

practice, that is, personal and interpersonal cultivation, or the

development of spiritual realization and ethical engagement.

“Abandon self and accord with others. Overcome yourself

and return to ritual propriety. This is daily external practice.

Forgive others and withstand insults. Eliminate every thought

and anxiety. Allow all things to come to rest in your heartmind.

This is daily internal practice....Put others first and

yourself last. Use yourself as the prescription for others. This

is daily external practice. Through clarity and stillness,

maintain your training (xinxing 修行). This is daily internal

practice....Constantly direct the heart-mind towards unity,

purifying and cleansing yourself throughout the twelve

double-hours. Each and every moment remain awake and

attentive. Don't allow your innate nature (xing 行) to become

obscured. Make the heart-mind stable and your qi

harmonious. This is real daily internal practice. Cultivate

benevolence and amass virtue. Allow yourself to suffer for

the benefit of others. This is real daily external practice.”

(Zhenxian yulu, DZ 1256, 1.15b)

Edited August 18, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[oat1239]

The goal and purpose of Meditation is to have the mind reaching an empty or vacuous state. The purpose of the practice is to help the mind to see and hear nothing in an disturbing and busy environment. The ultimate goal is to train the mind to be calm and poised in any adversity. Another word, you are calm as a standing mountain even someone curse at you or slap you on the face. However, that was considered to be the ultimate state of meditation. Can it be done...???

 

Hi ChiDragon. We cross paths again. That may be your opinion, but in my own opinion what you have said here is quite false. What you describe is only a small part of the picture. If someone were to describe meditation from a most peripheral and shallow point of view using only thier intellect to try to understand it, it would be much as you describe it. Meditation in my opinion is actually a process of bypassing the rational or intellectual mind to achieve true insight and understanding and spiritual growth through direct experience that can't ever be approached or achieved through normal processes of the intellect or rational mind, or however one wishes to call it. The true process can only ever be experienced and not ever deduced or analyzed by intellectual analysis.

 

Any true Taoists out there....???

 

Why? Are you interested in starting to learn a little bit about true Taoism? I think that in order for you to do so, first you would have to be willing to start letting go of your extremely flat, arbitrary, rigid fixed point of view which is lodged firmly and squarely in your intellect and start to admit that there are many things you simply do not know. In other words, before one can start, the intellect must be put back in its proper place otherwise a person is doomed to doing nothing more than swimming blindly and endlessly around within the confines of their very limited intellect.

 

 

NO, there was no such thing as "Walking meditation". I don't know how people came up with this terminology...???

 

Nonsense. Walking meditation is a traditional practice within at least some schools of Taoism cultivation. How far back the practice goes in history is anyone's guess however. Now I know why you call yourself the forlorn Taoist. You are stuck firmly within the confining walls of your imagination and intellect and you apparently see no way out. Take heart. It is as easy as letting go. It just takes a little practice to start getting the hang of it. The intellect will eventually revert back to its real purpose of helping us to function within the limited confines of the silver screen movie entitled 'The Material World', and you will then be free to start learning some baby steps with pure experiencing.

 

OK, I'm funnin' with ya a bit, but I think you are looking for some real feedback otherwise you wouldn't be saying the things you have been saying here.

 

There really seems to be a natural law in this universe that truth cannot ever be handed to us. It must always be buried mountain high in muck and dirt and endless melodrama, and only the very determined and commited with unshakeable faith will ever have a chance of finding a pearl at the bottom of the mountain of muck. Yang must always be balanced out by Yin in this world. Truth will not ever be left exposed without a huge covering of muck to hide it. There is no exception, it seems.

[johndoe2012]

Edited December 11, 2011 by chris d

[deci belle]

[JustARandomPanda]

The goal and purpose of Meditation is to have the mind reaching an empty or vacuous state. The purpose of the practice is to help the mind to see and hear nothing in an disturbing and busy environment.

 

Hmm...

 

It was my understanding that what you described in the quote above is only a preliminary state. Cessation of thought and calmness are for prepping the "soil" so it opens up a "space" for real inquiry into the Tao to begin.

 

Too much cessation of thought is thought to be just as unnatural in Buddhism as I suspect it is in Taoist meditation practices. I recall reading about monks who focused so much on stilling the mind to reach an empty state it crossed over into being unnatural (unTao-ish?). The phrase "Dead Tree Zen" comes to mind.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

The goal and purpose of Meditation is to have the mind reaching an empty or vacuous state. The purpose of the practice is to help the mind to see and hear nothing in an disturbing and busy environment.

 

Hmm...

 

It was my understanding that what you described in the quote above is only a preliminary state. Cessation of thought and calmness are for prepping the "soil" so it opens up a "space" for real inquiry into the Tao to begin.

 

Too much cessation of thought is thought to be just as unnatural in Buddhism as I suspect it is in Taoist meditation practices. I recall reading about monks who focused so much on stilling the mind to reach an empty state it crossed over into being unnatural (unTao-ish?). The phrase "Dead Tree Zen" comes to mind.

 

just my two cents...

 

cessation of thought also transferrs over as it's own reward.. as it inevitably leads to balance if it settles into a natural cessation of thought, and allows the practitioner to settle into the same space at other times, and to light their lamp for the rest of the day..

 

Inner cultivation is it's own reward, but useful for healing, defending, creating, and increasing wisdom

 

[ChiDragon]

Hmm...

 

It was my understanding that what you described in the quote above is only a preliminary state. Cessation of thought and calmness are for prepping the "soil" so it opens up a "space" for real inquiry into the Tao to begin.

 

Too much cessation of thought is thought to be just as unnatural in Buddhism as I suspect it is in Taoist meditation practices. I recall reading about monks who focused so much on stilling the mind to reach an empty state it crossed over into being unnatural (unTao-ish?). The phrase "Dead Tree Zen" comes to mind.

 

There is a distinction in meditation between a Buddhist and a Taoist.

A Buddhist meditation was for a thought of wisdom which need to be resulted. When he reached the full understand of that thought, he was considered to be enlightened.

 

A Taoist meditation was to have no thoughts and bring the mind into a Wu state. A Wu state is to think of nothing but put oneself into a quiescent state.

[oat1239]

A Taoist meditation was to have no thoughts and bring the mind into a Wu state. A Wu state is to think of nothing but put oneself into a quiescent state.

 

No, I do not believe that is correct, or rather, it is misleading. In my opinion that is a part of the process, but just getting to a state of thinking nothing is not the goal by any means. It is just a stage in meditation. There is much more to the process than that. By putting the rational mind to rest a new form of experiencing and a new way of gaining knowledge is awakened. To try to clarify what I am saying, a state of no thinking is a means, but it is not the purpose or end goal. I think that the purpose is more along the lines of reaching a state of being where one can directly experience reality as it is. Some call it enlightenment. Some call it dao. If the goal was just achieving no thought so one could be serene, it wouldn't have much more than a minor practical use. Sedatives can also make one serene but it wouldn't serve much practical purpose except for someone who is distraught. The goals of Taoism go much beyond achieving mere sernity and calmness in daily life, although meditation certainly does help in that regard.

Edited August 18, 2011 by oat1239

[ChiDragon]

No, I do not believe that is correct, or rather, it is misleading. In my opinion that is a part of the process, but just getting to a state of thinking nothing is not the goal by any means. It is just a stage in meditation. There is much more to the process than that. By putting the rational mind to rest a new form of experiencing and a new way of gaining knowledge is awakened. To try to clarify what I am saying, a state of no thinking is a means, but it is not the purpose or end goal. I think that the purpose is more along the lines of reaching a state of being where one can directly experience reality as it is. Some call it enlightenment. Some call it dao. If the goal was just achieving no thought so one could be serene, it wouldn't have much more than a minor practical use. Sedatives can also make one serene but it wouldn't serve much practical purpose except for someone who is distraught. The goals of Taoism go much beyond achieving mere sernity and calmness in daily life, although meditation certainly does help in that regard.

 

There is a distinction in meditation between a Buddhist and a Taoist.

You did not read me correctly....

Edited August 18, 2011 by ChiDragon