ancestral qi

[suninmyeyes]

Hello Taoists ,

I was reading a bit of the old John Chang thread and stumbeled upon this,which was posted by Sean:

 

..' My Taoist teacher Liu Ming tells me human beings can not even consciously kill themselves. Taoists believe suicide is a case of unresolved ancestral qi. In effect, an enraged demonic ancestor killing you with your own hands. Whoah.'

..

 

What is unresolved ancestoral qi?

It sounds like an interesting theory and I would like to find out more about ancestoral qi and its influence/importance in our life and what does a Taoist do with it,cultivate it or gets rid of it,change it,integrate it,just leave it as it is ...?

What do you personally do with it? And how important is it to a practising Taoist? How does it affect you ?

Thanks

Edited August 18, 2011 by suninmyeyes

[dawei]

Zong Qi is called Ancestral Qi (or gathering Qi since it gathers in the chest area; resides in the middle dan tian). Zong Qi since this location is the place of unprocessed emotions. The Zong Qi helps with respiration (lungs) and the pulse (heart).

 

BUT... Yuan Qi is also called Ancestral or Original Qi, and this is the pre-natal Qi which resides in the lower dan tian and will have past life imprints.

 

I have not heard this association in regards to suicide but suspect it is the [inherited] Yuan Qi.

 

We were discussing the DDJ Chapter 60 in the subforum and I was explaining Gui and Shen (the two polar sides to "Spirit" and how the chapter implies to not harm the spirit so that later (after death) one's spirit does not harm others later).

[doc benway]

I have trouble simply accepting words and concepts that don't resonate with me when it comes to things like this.

For a long time I looked at it some of these esoteric terms and concepts as BS but I've come to see it in a different light.

 

The lives of our ancestors affects us in many subtle and profound ways.

For me, it can take multiple forms. Our ancestors communicate with us and pass down their lessons through:

- DNA - health, disease, longevity, mental illness

- Familial patterns of behavior - physical abuse, emotional and psychological abuse, ethical behavior, criminal behavior, morality, spirituality, work ethic which are passed down through the generations

- Personal accomplishments or failings - economic success, political success, incarceration, execution, public humiliation or admiration which affect our offspring

- Social and cultural conventions and conditioning

- Choices regarding environment and conservation

- Choices of reproductive partner, age, and so on.

And many more things I'm not thinking of.

Many of these factors contribute to who and what we are, what we do, how we live and die, and so on.

It is similar to the Native American concepts of ancestry but in different terms.

 

Personally, I believe this is the foundation of what the Daoist paradigm describes in terms of Qi.

It's just that I'm more comfortable thinking in the Western paradigm.

[suninmyeyes]

Thanks guys,I was just really courious ,especially if that statment is a common belief in Taoisam(it sounded quite shamanic too ).

dawei I ll go and check subforum for the reccomended disscusion.I guess I would need to look into researching Taoisam a little bit more to understand the terminology better.It is on my list to do when time allows at some point as I find it interesting .Much of it is thanks to some stuff I see written here on TTB.

 

But yes ancestral qi sounds pretty common sensical to me so far, it is just a different use of language I suppose .

 

It is interesting what you say Steve that what you have mentioned in your post you consider it as foundation of what Daoist pardigm describes in terms of qi.

This patterns is something I have been working with in my life for while now and got to understand it a little through different methods and by paying attention ,inquiry and curiosity,sometimes dire need.

Reprogramming and deprogramming,changing and discovering.letting go.There is so much potential in us ,it is really incredible when I think of this now,but I am still as if in a sort sleeping daze .

Edited August 19, 2011 by suninmyeyes

[ChiDragon]

Hello Taoists ,

 

What is unresolved ancestoral qi?

It sounds like an interesting theory and I would like to find out more about ancestoral qi and its influence/importance in our life and what does a Taoist do with it,cultivate it or gets rid of it,change it,integrate it,just leave it as it is ...?

What do you personally do with it? And how important is it to a practising Taoist? How does it affect you ?

Thanks

 

It was just like Steve says. Ancestoral Qi, many of these factors, contribute to who and what we are, what we do, how we live and die, and so on. It was the genetic characteristics we inherited from our ancestors. Ancestoral Qi is not the kind of qi that can be cultivated. There was nothing that can do anything about it because it was all in the DNA.

[suninmyeyes]

It was just like Steve says. Ancestoral Qi, many of these factors, contribute to who and what we are, what we do, how we live and die, and so on. It was the genetic characteristics we inherited from our ancestors. Ancestoral Qi is not the kind of qi that can be cultivated. There was nothing that can do anything about it because it was all in the DNA.

Say if you inherent an illness through your genetical make up and with practise of chi kung you manage to change it?

What happens there according to Taoist belief system?

 

What about actually being able to change DNA? Why not?

[ChiDragon]

1. Say if you inherent an illness through your genetical make up and with practise of chi kung you manage to change it?

2. What happens there according to Taoist belief system?

 

3. What about actually being able to change DNA? Why not?

 

1. An illness is an abnormality was introduced to the body system by Nature. Nature also provide a self healing system which incorporated in the human body. According to the claims by the experimental results of the Chi Kung practitioners, yes, curable illness can be cured by Chi Kung. To my understanding, Chi Kung will enhance the immune system to speed up the healing process.

 

2. In the Taoist system, they claimed that during the practice of Chi Kung by focusing more on the infected area will heal quicker. The more serious of the illness the longer of the practice will take to complete the healing process.

 

3. In regarding to the ability to make changes to DNA, I think modern science has a better understanding and explanation. IMO You can make a research on your own.

Edited January 10, 2014 by ChiDragon

[suninmyeyes]

1. An illness is an abnormality was introduced to the body system by Nature. Nature also provide a self healing system which incorporated in the human body. According to the claims by the experimental results of the Chi Kung practitioners, yes, curable illness can be cured by Chi Kung. To my understanding, Chi Kung will enhance the immune system to speed up the healing process.

 

2. In the Taoist system, they claimed that during the practice of Chi Kung by focusing more on the infected area will heal quicker. The more serious of the illness the long of the practice will take to complete the healing process.

 

3. In regarding to the ability to make changes to DNA, I think modern science has a better understanding and explanation. IMO You can make a research on your own.

 

I think there must have been misscomunication(either I didnt express myself well or you have misread me or both) in regards of my questions and especially about DNA as your answers doesnt answer my question,it doesent make sense to what I was asking. It is not important,but just letting you know.

Internet can be like that sometimes.

[dawei]

Say if you inherent an illness through your genetical make up and with practise of chi kung you manage to change it?

What happens there according to Taoist belief system?

 

What about actually being able to change DNA? Why not?

This is where Medical Qigong deals with this issue much more.

 

I am not sure exactly what methods are used but I suspect even "soul retrieval" might be valid to do.

 

But my qigong master is a big believer in being able to change cells (inherited or not).

[doc benway]

Say if you inherent an illness through your genetical make up and with practise of chi kung you manage to change it?

What happens there according to Taoist belief system?

 

What about actually being able to change DNA? Why not?

I don't know if DNA could be changed or not but that would be very difficult to verify.

It is extremely complex and expensive to analyze.

I guess one would have to sample a certain amount from a person, then do the changing work, then measure again.

Interesting concept.

Everything else changes, DNA mutates spontaneously, why couldn't there be a way to change it intentionally?

[Wuji108]

If you change your DNA you are in essence changing your ancestral Qi and your "karma". This is supposed to be possible to bring about through two methods:

 

One is the physical - Ming cultivation, which alters the energetic foundation of the body, from which the grosser form of the physical is generated. It makes sense that if you change the source material (the Qi) that the manifest (the body/DNA) would also change. This would be hard to test, but certainly is in the realm of possibility. A big challenge is that to make change at this level, you have to believe it to be in the realm of the possible, like growing back a digit that has been severed...or reversing incurable diseases through Qi Gong practice....

 

The second method is through the cultivation of virtue - Xing or essential nature cultivation. Through this level of cultivation you essentially build back good deed credit - when you do that you alter your "karma". The good deed credit or virtue level is the only thing that you can take with you when you die...

 

Because you can take this dual approach, it is supposed to be possible to reverse and fix any inherited "stuff" and achieve immortality in this lifetime.

 

This stuff is so COOL!!!

[johndoe2012]

Edited December 9, 2011 by chris d

[doc benway]

The difficulty for me is that it is completely gratuitous.

I am going to breath and move in a certain manner, believe deeply in my bones that this will change my DNA.

Then perhaps one day I will say - I've done it! I've changed my DNA.

OK. Sure. And maybe I also changed the ratio of hydrogen to helium in the sun while I was at it.

 

So unless we are looking at the DNA before and after the change and verifying that change, we are not changing our DNA.

Certainly we are doing something. And if we are using breath and body movement and intent, we could say that we are working with the Qi, I'm fine with that and it's a part of my life. But to make the leap - to try and take an empiric and experiential process of Qi cultivation and take it into the realm of science where there are very consistent and reproducible methods to be utilized degrades both experiences in my view. If we are not going to utilize the scientific method then we are not in the realm of science, we are in the realm of pseudoscience. And this is the realm of Intelligent Design and the Inquisition. It's not a realm that I choose to inhabit or acknowledge.

[Birch]

Epigenetics (sp?) I figure I'd look there.

So maybe not changing the DNA part of the equation but changing the other parts of it?

[宁]

If you change your DNA you are in essence changing your ancestral Qi and your "karma". This is supposed to be possible to bring about through two methods:

 

One is the physical - Ming cultivation, which alters the energetic foundation of the body, from which the grosser form of the physical is generated. It makes sense that if you change the source material (the Qi) that the manifest (the body/DNA) would also change. This would be hard to test, but certainly is in the realm of possibility. A big challenge is that to make change at this level, you have to believe it to be in the realm of the possible, like growing back a digit that has been severed...or reversing incurable diseases through Qi Gong practice....

 

The second method is through the cultivation of virtue - Xing or essential nature cultivation. Through this level of cultivation you essentially build back good deed credit - when you do that you alter your "karma". The good deed credit or virtue level is the only thing that you can take with you when you die...

 

Because you can take this dual approach, it is supposed to be possible to reverse and fix any inherited "stuff" and achieve immortality in this lifetime.

 

This stuff is so COOL!!!

 

 

very interesting synthesis.

[suninmyeyes]

The difficulty for me is that it is completely gratuitous.

I am going to breath and move in a certain manner, believe deeply in my bones that this will change my DNA.

Then perhaps one day I will say - I've done it! I've changed my DNA.

OK. Sure. And maybe I also changed the ratio of hydrogen to helium in the sun while I was at it.

 

So unless we are looking at the DNA before and after the change and verifying that change, we are not changing our DNA.

Certainly we are doing something. And if we are using breath and body movement and intent, we could say that we are working with the Qi, I'm fine with that and it's a part of my life. But to make the leap - to try and take an empiric and experiential process of Qi cultivation and take it into the realm of science where there are very consistent and reproducible methods to be utilized degrades both experiences in my view. If we are not going to utilize the scientific method then we are not in the realm of science, we are in the realm of pseudoscience. And this is the realm of Intelligent Design and the Inquisition. It's not a realm that I choose to inhabit or acknowledge.

OK but if we look at cancer for example and mutations that occur,are they influenced by the state of mind of the cancer sufferer at all?

Has a different sate of mind that has been brought on by movments and breathing heleped cure the illnes in some people?

In the same manner mind and breathing in certain way could possibly bring on changes to DNA by logic.

Now I am sure you know MUCH more about science than me and wouldnt be suprised if I made some slip somwhere.

This is my 0.01 kunas.

You did make me lough with the changing the ratio of hydrogen to helium in the sun analogy.But you know why not again?Could it be that we have more potential than we think possible,is our thinking our main limitation?

The whole universe changes all the time becouse every thought and action we make ,if one is to meditate on that maybe clue could be found as to finding ways to change proportions .

 

 

post by Wuji:

'If you change your DNA you are in essence changing your ancestral Qi and your "karma". This is supposed to be possible to bring about through two methods:

 

One is the physical - Ming cultivation, which alters the energetic foundation of the body, from which the grosser form of the physical is generated. It makes sense that if you change the source material (the Qi) that the manifest (the body/DNA) would also change. This would be hard to test, but certainly is in the realm of possibility. A big challenge is that to make change at this level, you have to believe it to be in the realm of the possible, like growing back a digit that has been severed...or reversing incurable diseases through Qi Gong practice....

 

The second method is through the cultivation of virtue - Xing or essential nature cultivation. Through this level of cultivation you essentially build back good deed credit - when you do that you alter your "karma". The good deed credit or virtue level is the only thing that you can take with you when you die...

 

Because you can take this dual approach, it is supposed to be possible to reverse and fix any inherited "stuff" and achieve immortality in this lifetime.

 

This stuff is so COOL!!! '

 

 

Wuji

Indeed cool stuff!I totally agree on two ways of making a permanent change.This is something I have been pondering recently.

Especially exploring the relation between believing and manifestation.And also why would imposiblle be taken for granted?

It is some deeply engraved common sensical human dogma that I strive not to just accept no matter how much proofs there are.Common sense can be a dangerous trap or a bad excuse for having a rest.

Virtue a second thing you mention resonates here as well .

I took on as a reminder ,practise and backbone in my life 'do no harm'(practical as oppose extremist and of course I slip sometimes and pick myself back up and continue my journey)and have noticed that it is a brilliant tool.It really causes the permanet change wiping away old conditioning and opening the doors without even having to knock.

It is one of the best practises as it makes a person more transparent and therefore more easy to blend with nature.

Would like to see your posts more often.

Edited August 22, 2011 by suninmyeyes

[suninmyeyes]

Epigenetics (sp?) I figure I'd look there.

So maybe not changing the DNA part of the equation but changing the other parts of it?

Thanks ,

found an interesting article just click on the link in the link 'How you can change your genes'(why DNA isnt your destiny)

 

http://sandeepr.com/2010/01/24/epigenetics-dna-how-you-can-change-your-genes-destiny-time/

Edited August 23, 2011 by suninmyeyes

[gendao]

If you change your DNA you are in essence changing your ancestral Qi and your "karma". This is supposed to be possible to bring about through two methods:

 

One is the physical - Ming cultivation, which alters the energetic foundation of the body, from which the grosser form of the physical is generated. It makes sense that if you change the source material (the Qi) that the manifest (the body/DNA) would also change. This would be hard to test, but certainly is in the realm of possibility. A big challenge is that to make change at this level, you have to believe it to be in the realm of the possible, like growing back a digit that has been severed...or reversing incurable diseases through Qi Gong practice....

 

The second method is through the cultivation of virtue - Xing or essential nature cultivation. Through this level of cultivation you essentially build back good deed credit - when you do that you alter your "karma". The good deed credit or virtue level is the only thing that you can take with you when you die...

 

Because you can take this dual approach, it is supposed to be possible to reverse and fix any inherited "stuff" and achieve immortality in this lifetime.

 

This stuff is so COOL!!!

Funny, that was exactly my same hypothesis. That our DNA is affected by ancestral family karma (issues). So to repair that, you'd have to resolve issues that your family line historically suffers (not just you personally). Which means at this point, your self-healing and therapy must extend beyond just your own personal life - and into your whole family and collective family past... Yup, the fun just never ends, folks!

 

Where (school/system?) did you learn this theory?

Edited August 22, 2011 by vortex

[Birch]

"Yup, the fun just never ends, folks"

But the buck might just stop here:-)

 

Puts a new spin on "personal responsability" huh;-) ?

 

I think it's commonly believed that DNA is inert. Hence all that "blueprint" referencing.

But it would seem it's not inert. What that means for cultivators. That could get really interesting. Guzzi indeed!

So we've discovered another "control panel". Let's imagine the degrading environment is leading to ongoing genetic mutation within the term of an individual's lifespan. If that person does not have kids and pass on the mutation, no effects, right? So how can one tweak one's DNA? Especially in the face of pretty poor nutrition, air and water quality?

[gendao]

"Yup, the fun just never ends, folks"

But the buck might just stop here:-)

 

Puts a new spin on "personal responsability" huh;-) ?

Well, it's still all "you," it just puts a new (more expansive) definition on your "personal self"/"you." So that you can no longer draw a hard line between "you" and anyone else (to "blame").

 

I mean, we "know" per non-duality teachings that "individual you's" don't really exist anyways.. So, this really just reinforces the notion that not only is it never really anyone else's fault per se...because there is not truly anyone else!

Edited August 22, 2011 by vortex

[Wuji108]

"OK but if we look at cancer for example and mutations that occur,are they influenced by the state of mind of the cancer sufferer at all?

Has a different sate of mind that has been brought on by movments and breathing heleped cure the illnes in some people?"

 

Absolutely the state of the mind can bring about absolute change in the state of the body. Let's look at the body as this wonderful "machine" that strives for homeostasis and is self-healing to a degree that most of us just take for granted. Then the question can shift to "what prevents the body from healing itself?" If we use a physics type model of the world, then truly we are all matter vibrating at different frequencies and modulations. If I alter my thinking, my energetic vibratory signature changes - my brain waves shift, different parts of the brain activate or go to sleep, the parasympathetic nervous system kicks in or not. All of this is well documented. So perhaps it's really about creating an environment in which the body can do its self-healing work unimpeded...

 

One of the principles of Qi Gong's function is that first there is energy, then there is the physical. Let's suppose that we have "undigested emotional detritus" in other words, say as children we experienced trauma that was too intense, too scary, too much to process at the time so we stuffed it (we did the stiff upper lip thing...) That emotional garbage didn't go away, rather it gets stuck in the energetic body and creates a blockage or excess or whatever. That blockage in the energetic eventually shows up as some form of chronic illness or physical injury. When we do Qi Gong and begin to smooth and clear the energetic body, the emotional stuff shows up for processing. If we still don't process it, it will simply stay lodged where it was or go find a new hiding place in the body. So a key to the healing process is to develop a method for processing and releasing all the old emotional detritus as it comes up for processing. The physical triggers the emotional, the emotional triggers the physical - the two cannot be separated. And it is absolutely possible to make changes in the health through this.

 

I like the idea that was brought up earlier about epigenetics - it explains the genetic changes - the genetic material was always there - it just needed to be turned on or off and that results in the appearance of genetic mutation...the Qi Gong and meditation change the internal environment triggering the epigenetic transformation and so we make the shift from ordinary human, to extraordinary human to immortal on earth to immortal in heaven...

[Wuji108]

Funny, that was exactly my same hypothesis. That our DNA is affected by ancestral family karma (issues). So to repair that, you'd have to resolve issues that your family line historically suffers (not just you personally). Which means at this point, your self-healing and therapy must extend beyond just your own personal life - and into your whole family and collective family past... Yup, the fun just never ends, folks!

 

Where (school/system?) did you learn this theory?

 

 

I study with a Long Men Pai (Dragon Gate Sect) (24th generation) and Sanfeng Pai (13th generation) Taoist priest: Master Tseng (Yun Xiang Tseng). This is part of the Complete Reality School of Taoism. It is also influenced by the Xuan Wu Pai which is local to the Wudang Mountains in Hubei Province.

 

The Long Men sect teaches about dual cultivation of Xing and Ming.

 

My favorite thing is "The purpose of life is happiness"...

[zerostao]

"The purpose of life is happiness"...

true taoist. thanks for that wuji108

and earlier today this post by mythmaker

"Has anyone noticed that all great beings have a good sense of humor and love to laugh"

 

ah, it is just another wonderful day in the tao........

[Birch]

Well, it's still all "you," it just puts a new (more expansive) definition on your "personal self"/"you." So that you can no longer draw a hard line between "you" and anyone else (to "blame").

 

I mean, we "know" per non-duality teachings that "individual you's" don't really exist anyways.. So, this really just reinforces the notion that not only is it never really anyone else's fault per se...because there is not truly anyone else!

Riiight;-)

I think there's some truth in that but I don't think it's the whole truth;-)

Cause if it were true, our current lamentable state is both wholly self-inflicted AND it's somehow supposed to be that way...I mean any intelligent being would attempt to avoid the sort of repetitive mistakes that seem to be leading us all to hell in a handbasket at varying speeds. I mean if we're god(s) then we're doing a shit job.

[Mokona]

During this holiday season, these wonderful posts are good reminders of an essential cultivation practice we could chose to engage in: to love our family members and to work on unresolved issues with our family. Even if the original family hurt initiated in a previous or two previous generations ago, healing can begin at any time.

 

@ Wuji108 - My teacher, Michael Lomax, has developed a "perfect DNA" form. One sets ones intent, pulls the perfect DNA pattern that is right for that person, then commands ones cells to replicate the perfect DNA pattern.

What does perfect DNA do for a person?