[TTC Study] Chapter 62 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Edited August 21, 2011 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Well, I guess no one wishes to talk about this chapter so ... Moving right along.

 

Next?!

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 62
1. Tao is the abyss of all things.
2. It's a treasure of a kind person,
3. It's the safe-keep for an unkind person.
4. Kind words will gain respect.
5. Good deed may be praised by others.
6. Even to an unkind person,
7. Why would he abandoned Tao?
8. Thus crowned a ruler.
9. Established the positions for three ministers,
10. Though a solemn ceremony with precious gifts followed by four horses,
11. One would rather offer this Tao as a gift!
12. The ancients praised Tao, why?
13. Is it not to say,
14. Hope to be gained,
15. And the guilty to be pardoned?
16. Thus that is why Tao was praised in the world.

1. 道者萬物之奧。
2. 善人之寶，
3. 不善人之所保。
4. 美言可以市尊。
5. 美行可以加人。
6. 人之不善，
7. 何棄之有。
8. 故立天子、
9. 置三公，
10.雖有拱璧以先駟馬，
11.不如坐進此道。
12.古之所以貴此道者何。
13.不曰：
14.以求得，
15.有罪以免邪﹖
16.故為天下貴。

Edited February 4, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

That's a nice translation ChiDragon. I have no problem with it.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[dawei]

Here is Flowing Hands:

 

CHAPTER 62

The Dao is the treasured way of the Universe and the Ten Thousand Things.

It treats all things equally and sees the good and bad in all men.

The Sage is like the Dao;

if a man is bad, he does not abandon him,

nor does he give more preference to those who are good.

He sees the world as one whole and so treats all things alike.

When the king is crowned and the officers of state installed, do not send great gifts of gold

and jade, but remain still and offer them your greatest treasure, the Dao.

Because the Dao is unbiased, yielding and flowing, people like the Dao at first.

For they each can find what they seek and be forgiven for all their sins.

Therefore it is the greatest treasure that exists in the Universe.

Edited August 24, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

Here is Flowing Hands:

 

Yes, that too is a nice translation.

[dawei]

There are a few words which differ from the oldest texts and which Hendricks bases his translation on.

 

Maybe just the opening lines can be looked at for an example:

 

This is the Wang Bi... but he simply follows He Shang Gong word for word. The Fu Yi had one extra word here so Wang Bi is just following He Shang Gong and Fu Yi.

1. 道者萬物之奧。- hidden recess / profound

2. 善人之寶，- treasure

3. 不善人之所保。 - protect

 

This is the Ma Wang Dui text (A):

1. 道者萬物之注。- pour, flow, concentrate , notable

2. 善人之葆， - original, preserve, cover

3. 不善人之所葆。 - original, preserve, cover

 

I personally think that "treasure" was pushed too hard in this chapter after everyone followed Fu Yi's changes to the opening.

 

In the first line of the modern text, 奧 means the southwest corner of the house which is where worship occurred and grain stored. This naturally lead to an interpretation of the second line modern word 寶 as treasure.

 

The oldest text seems to have a simple meaning, not trying to push the idea of 'treasure'; Just that the flow of the ten thousand things preserves both the good and not-good.

Edited August 24, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

This is the Wang Bi... but he simply follows He Shang Gong word for word. The Fu Yi had one extra word here so Wang Bi is just following He Shang Gong and Fu Yi.

1. 道者萬物之奧。- hidden recess / profound

2. 善人之寶，- treasure

3. 不善人之所保。 - protect

 

保護: protect

保存: safe keep

 

Which translation is more logical for line 3...???

A. It was to be protected by the unkind.

B. It was to be kept by the unkind.

Does Tao need to be protected by anybody...???

No, "A" can be eliminated.

Edited August 25, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

保護: protect

保存: safe keep

 

Which translation is more logical for line 3...???

A. It was to be protected by the unkind.

B. It was to be kept by the unkind.

Does Tao need to be protected by anybody...???

No, "A" can be eliminated.

"B" is pure nonsense... the unkind don't care to keep anything...

 

Your "A" is also bordering on nonsense... which means your english cannot really put forth your meaning. Honestly, I think you have a valid idea but it doesn't come out in english.

 

I might add that it is NOT "BY" the unkind... it is "FOR" the unkind... don't ignore the opening lines.. this is about DAO, not the unkind.

 

I will add... of course... JMO

Edited August 25, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

A. Tao was to be protected by the unkind.

B. Tao was to be kept by the unkind.

 

Dawei...

I guess I can't communicate with you. I guess I'm full of nonsense.

Edited August 25, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

A. Tao was to be protected by the unkind.

B. Tao was to be kept by the unkind.

 

Dawei...

I guess I can't communicate with you. I guess I'm full of nonsense.

 

Hehehe. You two guys. Funny.

 

Yes, it is Tao that protects the bad. Henricks' use of the word "Way" sometimes refers to Tao and othertimes refers to Virtue. In this case it absolutely is Tao. (But then, I could easily argue against what I just said. Hehehe.)

 

Like a fisherman's net, Tao covers all.

[dawei]

Like a fisherman's net, Tao covers all.

yes.. commonsense. Fish don't seek the net, nor try to keep it nor protect it... but they do run into it and get a surprise.

[ChiDragon]

We are really getting too remote now. The more we said, the more erroneous commonsense...

[Marblehead]

We are really getting too remote now. The more we said, the more erroneous commonsense...

 

So shut up.

 

Hehehe. Sorry, but I just couldn't resist the opening you left for me.

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those who speak don't know and those who know don't speak.

 

But here we are talking with each other as if we really knew something.

 

And the world turns.

[ion]

This passage is like a song of praise to the unpredjudiced nature of the tao. Like the tao, the sage is a refuge to the wicked, he gives aide to all that come to him. The tao has no predjudiced, it offers as a gift to kings what it offers to the wicked.

 

edit-the first line, gives praise to Tao nature as the source of all things, then goes on to illustrate how it does not show preference in who or what it gives life to, it is like mother, father and friend to all of its manifestations. So it is a praise of unprejudiced benevolence, to live up to it is to be humble and unbiased.

Edited September 13, 2011 by ion

[Marblehead]

So it is a praise of unprejudiced benevolence, to live up to it is to be humble and unbiased.

 

Just wanted to let you know that I am not there and likely never will be. Although I don't think I am prejudiced, I am discriminating.