Living Life is a totally misconstrued taoist concept

[Marblehead]

But please try to stay reasonably civil.

 

Hi Mal,

 

I am glad you are paying attention.

[Jetsun]

Connecting with life and connecting with other people are brain stem needs cemented deep in the primitive part of the human brain reinforced over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. In tribal society being ostracised meant death and that anxiety of being cut off still lives within us, most of us get fearful just from falling out with our group of friends so going off and isolating yourself is no easy feat. In my view most people need many years of training in letting go and detaching within society before they try to tackle letting go of their deepest primative needs and fears head on by going on a long isolated retreat, otherwise you may just be overwhelmed by what you are up against. Let go of the small things first.

[Kali Yuga]

Do you really think that the eight immortals achieve immortality by food, drink and fun alone? My gosh, your ignorance is astounding.

 

I am just a student learning the teachings of great masters, Taoist, Buddhist or otherwise. Whatever I write here in this forum, they are from the words of masters who have achieved more than me. These are not my own words.

 

I am now eating a raw food diet. With no sex or even any opportunities of sex. I don't look at women or even think about women. I live in a extremely small town near the beach away from the city.

 

Do I practice what I preach? Definitely.

First of all, those "masters" probably would not like you appropriating their words to fit your misconstrued version of reality. Your attitude does not reflect one of someone claiming to be "just a student". A student is humble; and is characterized by openness to learning more. You on the other hand have a full cup, and are obviously trying to puff up your feathers. You are what I call a spiritual materialist - someone who enlarges his own ego with false spiritual accomplishments and believes that he is the authority to tell other people about everything.

 

Second of all, more brash, sweeping generalized statements just proving how shallow you can actually be, and showing the lack of refined intellect. Did I not just say that the Eight Immortals embodied both traits of austerity and spontaneity? You are putting words into my mouth and did not even mention the other points in the post which point out the obvious flaws in your argument.

 

The cave is my room and I just came out of a 90-min vissapana meditation. Thank you very much.

 

That was how I got the inspiration to start such insightful threads.

How humble of you to declare your own thread as "insightful"! And you're bragging about a 90 minute meditation? That isn't anything buddy. A room does not equal a cave despite what your delusions tell you. And if you even have internet, your town isn't obviously as small as the mind which perceives it to be that way.

 

I look at women with emptiness and a non-discerning eye.

 

Obviously you are sexually repressed if you have to blatantly bring up sex all the time when no one asks for it. No one was inquiring as to whether you were into women or not.

 

Well, "tulku", get to it! That includes not posting here. Goodbye and good riddance!

 

Yes, why are you still posting here or even on the internet if you are going on such a strenuous retreat? Did any of your so-called masters preach a full 90-day retreat without food or water but GOD FORBID no taobums or youtube? What would Buddha think if his followers had no internet?!? wheres your "I practice what I preach?"

 

Do you not realize how incredibly hypocritical you look to other people when you go around putting down other people's views and talking about renouncing society when you are in fact still engaging in it?

 

I have a feeling you must like this whole idea of renouncing society because you yourself are incredibly awkward in real life situations, and people probably can't put up with your ego, based on the fact that you are keen on denouncing other people.

 

It's easy to sour grape about living in a society in which you are not socially adept to even participate in. Going on long retreats requires an immense amount of emotional maturity for you to grow in any amount in them, and the greatest measure of emotional maturity is how you yourself interact with other people. It's like putting a little chick out in the wild before its even ready. Sure it can think that "oh I am so badass I was made for this" but when you put things into proper perspective it will just get gobbled up or die of the cold.

 

You have to know how to handle other people with compassion and understand how it is they think and feel, before you can even begin to have a proper assessment of your own self. And unless you can do this for yourself (which is obvious that you aren't able yet), going on an actual retreat you are bound to get devoured by your own delusions and the demons of your own construction.

[tulku]

"Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation?

This makes your mind narrow, not clear.

Integral awareness is fluid and adaptable, present in all places and at all times.

That is true meditation.

 

Who can attain clarity and simplicity by avoiding the world?

The Tao is clear and simple, and it doesn't avoid the world.

 

Why not simply honor your parents,

love your children,

help your brothers and sisters,

be faithful to your friends,

care for your mate with devotion,

complete your work cooperatively and joyfully,

assume responsibility for problems,

practice virtue without first demanding it of others,

understand the highest truths yet retain an ordinary manner?

 

That would be true clarity, true simplicity, true mastery."

-Hua Hu Ching

 

Obviously this guy has not attained the highest spiritual attainments.

[tulku]

@ Tulku

 

You are just advocating path of renunciation (like Hinayana or monastic daoism) . There are other paths, of transformation like in the tantras or the direct methods of dzogchen and mahamudra. Also cultivation masters get married, they don't look at women like a piece of "void." Household yogins are not any better or worse than monastics. Its just different life styles that fit different individuals.

 

And imo, you are getting this whole thing backwards. If you suppress desires or the sense pleasures to transcend them, that is the longer path. You'd have to go about eliminating each attachment one by one as they are lodged in deeper. Renunciation comes naturally if you are at that stage and indulgence can be appropriate at time. In my experience, observing yourself is the key to know what's appropriate. Seems like you are just hot headed for some romanticized idea of renunciation, if you force things your efforts might backfire.

 

p.s. 90 minute vipassaa session is something to boast about?

 

Indulgence is appropriate at times? LOL. Obviously another deluded practitioner.

 

If I am suppressing desires, then I suppose the great masters like Nan Chin Huai, Tibetan Monks and Theravada Monks are suppressing their desires too.

 

It means that none of their meditation works but you know better than them? It means you have achieved more than those Tibetan and Theravada masters?

 

LOL. The level of arrogant ignorance in here.

[tulku]

Good point

 

When I renounce something, I'm tied to it, I'm attached to it's absence.

If I can see it, and my desire, for what they truly are there is no need for renunciation.

That's liberation.

 

That's Jhana Meditation. Read my first few posts again.

[tulku]

renunciation isn't for everyone. daoism evolved to offer guidance to people of worldly paths (graceful acceptance) and monastic paths (graceful rejection). if a person chooses to live in the world, or has to, but they reject the world, they can go crazy and cultivate negativity and lack of peace. so this is not good.

 

also there is more than one single goal. no ism is That simple so i think its important to respect all aspects of spiritual cultivation. not everyone is motivated to experience the void, even if you strongly feel that this is the goal of your own personal practice. people are born with different natures, proclivities, and predilections. what seems right for you isn't right for everyone.

 

and i loathe to make this a personal matter, but i will bring up an example from my own practice. i am not a monastic renunciate but i have had my experiences with void consciousness and with dissolution into oneness. so therefore, one does not need to have no sex or fun or sensory input in order to achieve these goals.

 

daoism has never advocated cultivating rigid attitudes, so maybe if you expanded your acceptance to include the paths that were appropriate for others, you would find more peace.

 

 

 

dzogchen is just the awareness that we are already one with the all, that we don't have to do anything else or realize anything else, and it is expressed by just being spontaneously ourselves. so its not the same at all. its sort of the opposite of what you are saying, which is deny healthy human impulses and try to realize the void.

 

part of realizing emptiness is that it makes room for the fullness of life, which is beautiful when it is balanced by emptiness realization. but balance is the key, not getting lost in emptiness. this is a common mistake.

 

 

 

 

all three of those paths have evolved to encompass the needs of the many. hinduism, for example, ranges from the void-driven nihilistic renunciation you are going on about to tantric shaivism, which says that you should accept everything on principle, and have as much sex (and meat, and wine, depending on your school of shaivism) as you want as long as you are doing it in a way that enables progress on your spiritual path.

 

my point is, there are more ways than the way you think is right. and since you seem so fired up about your way, why aren't you dressed in rags on a mountain path, begging for rice and contemplating the void? why are you using the internet? isnt that a part of the polluted world that you seem to detest? your example speaks louder than your words, so you seem to contradict yourself.

 

@ everyone else: i can see why you guys get sick of the buddhists here

 

using the internet isn't engaging the senses .. however i know many who use the internet to indulge in their senses of sight for eg internet porn..

 

i have never advocated one must live in the mountains to cultivate.. you can be in a small town or deep forest..

 

the main point is to stay away from sex, good food and all other fun, sensory-indulging activities

 

that way, you will experience the void faster than if you engage in sex, good food and fun..

[tulku]

Tulku, I admire your enthusiasm for renunciation path and I think it will lead you to many great experiences, but when you post you come off as very young and dogmatic and a bit Ignorant of the other paths...

 

One what many paths {not all} consider to be among the highest teachings, like Taoism's Wu Way {did I spell that right? I am not a Taoist scholar} teachings or Buddhism's Dzogchen and Mahamudra, all embrace the world very thoroughly and enjoyment of every moment becomes the deepest meditation...

 

In Dzogchen for Instance, one gives up the need to renounce anything, because as one becomes established in Rigpa, the world and all the pleasurable experiences are seen as Natural and Perfect adornments or 'ornaments' of Awareness Itself.

 

The Dzogchenpa then practices enjoying every luxury and pleasure possible{without grasping}, to make sure that s/he is completely unshakable, or to make sure that nothing in desire or aversion can interrupt her Awareness state...

 

That [for me] is a far higher practice than renunciation. The Yogi that has to live away from the world or society, does so because s/he is unable to practice the Higher teachings, either because she does not have quite enough will power, or probably because she simply does not have access to the Highest teachings...

 

 

I encourage your renunciation path though, as it is perfect for some people and I did some time their myself, but stay aware that there may come a time when the world becomes your path...

 

Blessings! Seth

 

I didn't know that not engaging in sex, good food and other fun activities is considered to be renunciation.

[tulku]

Hi Tulku,

 

I used to have quite a bit of fervor for the renunciation path myself. Many things happened which made me reconsider the renunciation path.

 

In the west it is not necessarily the difficulty of living the renunciation path. It is how people are connected in the city you live in that confirms the overall result.

How do you interact with people who you see go to the bar? When you are interacting with people who have opposing views what is your general reaction? Do you isolate yourself from messages you could be getting from other people which helps to overall tweak our views on things?

 

The lone mind tends to have a funny interaction with itself if one is not used to looking for messages in nature itself. Once you have done it... What happens when you realize you cant interpet or react in a non-inflamitory way with humanity? Are you ready for that? Do you realize that being a hermit actually sheds a lot of your interaction skills?

 

Have you seen how old people who are hermits in the texts are? They have already learned how to interact with people.

 

My smoking gun question... If you would be ever wanting to consider it:

If you cant learn how to properly interact with people, how could you learn how to properly interact with natural forces, deities or spirits?

 

If you think I am implying that you do not. The information I am giving is missed. I just ask simply that people who consider this path to be concerned with the result which although beautific and full of glory which is talked about. That it may not be what you think it is. It is the stepping stone for one who has plateaued in their understanding and is searching for more tea during the dark tea time of the soul.

 

so many taoist, buddhist and spiritual masters have accomplished spiritual attainments in seclusion and written so many books about the path of renunciation ..

 

are you saying all those masters are wrong and fake?

 

such arrogance and disrespect

[tulku]

 

yes i know .. i am about to leave this forum for a very long time myself..

 

most of the people in here are not interested in samadhi so why force them..

[tulku]

I still disagree with you here. Taoism, in my understanding, is about living life to its fullest. No, I do not mean in excess or chasing after various vices.

 

I am talking about living in such a way so that you are always at peace with your Self (your inner essence). In such a way that you can travel the world and not upset the people you encounter along the way.

 

I am talking about interacting with all other aspects of the Manifest, Mystery, and Chi.

 

I am talking about being able to appreciate the rose, without praise, and without blame to the thorns.

 

I am talking about experiencing the passions and emotions of the animal we are.

 

Deer do what deer do. People should do what people do.

 

No.

 

Laymen do what laymen do.

 

Spiritual Cultivators do what Spiritual Cultivators do.

[konchog uma]

using the internet isn't engaging the senses .. however i know many who use the internet to indulge in their senses of sight for eg internet porn..

 

i have never advocated one must live in the mountains to cultivate.. you can be in a small town or deep forest..

 

the main point is to stay away from sex, good food and all other fun, sensory-indulging activities

 

that way, you will experience the void faster than if you engage in sex, good food and fun..

 

well you are presuming that the goal of practice is to experience the void. you can't even define that because its paradoxically impossible.

 

secondly, there are whole schools that disagree with you based on the premise that if one can realize the emptiness of sex and other sensory pleasures while engaged in them, they can realize the emptiness of anything. in other words, your philosophy works only as long as one is sequestered away and doesn't have to deal with life on life's terms, while an accepting philosophy works everywhere.

 

if you have ever heard of kalachakra tantra, the highest yoga tantra involves using the practice of lovemaking to contemplate and realize emptiness. when you talk about experiencing the void, i assume you are talking about realizing emptiness, since the negation or dissolution of consciousness itself has never been the highest goal of anyone except maybe people who seek death.

 

anyway, your attitude is too rigid for me to take you seriously. in other words, if your path bore the highest fruit, why are you so rigid? one who has realized the void would see the total lack of importance in such matters as these, and would have an all-inclusive understanding, not an understanding that divides into dualistic opposites. you claim to espouse the highest path but your example is one of dichotomy and duality, something we dirty worldly people are trying to transcend in spite of our sexual practices and our love of food.

 

if everyone thought like you the human race would be extinct in a single generation. THEN who would realize the highest truth of void consciousness?? oh wait, everyone. nevermind.

[tulku]

First of all, those "masters" probably would not like you appropriating their words to fit your misconstrued version of reality. Your attitude does not reflect one of someone claiming to be "just a student". A student is humble; and is characterized by openness to learning more. You on the other hand have a full cup, and are obviously trying to puff up your feathers. You are what I call a spiritual materialist - someone who enlarges his own ego with false spiritual accomplishments and believes that he is the authority to tell other people about everything.

 

Second of all, more brash, sweeping generalized statements just proving how shallow you can actually be, and showing the lack of refined intellect. Did I not just say that the Eight Immortals embodied both traits of austerity and spontaneity? You are putting words into my mouth and did not even mention the other points in the post which point out the obvious flaws in your argument.

 

 

How humble of you to declare your own thread as "insightful"! And you're bragging about a 90 minute meditation? That isn't anything buddy. A room does not equal a cave despite what your delusions tell you. And if you even have internet, your town isn't obviously as small as the mind which perceives it to be that way.

 

 

 

Obviously you are sexually repressed if you have to blatantly bring up sex all the time when no one asks for it. No one was inquiring as to whether you were into women or not.

 

 

 

Yes, why are you still posting here or even on the internet if you are going on such a strenuous retreat? Did any of your so-called masters preach a full 90-day retreat without food or water but GOD FORBID no taobums or youtube? What would Buddha think if his followers had no internet?!? wheres your "I practice what I preach?"

 

Do you not realize how incredibly hypocritical you look to other people when you go around putting down other people's views and talking about renouncing society when you are in fact still engaging in it?

 

I have a feeling you must like this whole idea of renouncing society because you yourself are incredibly awkward in real life situations, and people probably can't put up with your ego, based on the fact that you are keen on denouncing other people.

 

It's easy to sour grape about living in a society in which you are not socially adept to even participate in. Going on long retreats requires an immense amount of emotional maturity for you to grow in any amount in them, and the greatest measure of emotional maturity is how you yourself interact with other people. It's like putting a little chick out in the wild before its even ready. Sure it can think that "oh I am so badass I was made for this" but when you put things into proper perspective it will just get gobbled up or die of the cold.

 

You have to know how to handle other people with compassion and understand how it is they think and feel, before you can even begin to have a proper assessment of your own self. And unless you can do this for yourself (which is obvious that you aren't able yet), going on an actual retreat you are bound to get devoured by your own delusions and the demons of your own construction.

 

Those masters would be proud of someone who sticks to the true teachings like glue.

 

You have no idea at all about the true mechanics of immortality and yet you can go about shooting your mouth off.

 

I have already stopped any sexual activities and sexual thoughts a long time ago. Plus the fact that I am partaking in a raw food diet.

 

No this isn't renunciation but it is the culling of the senses.

 

People forget what's the true purpose of renunciation. It is to cull the senses.

 

If you can cull your senses while in the city, then good for you.

[Marblehead]

so many taoist, buddhist and spiritual masters have accomplished spiritual attainments in seclusion and written so many books about the path of renunciation ..

 

are you saying all those masters are wrong and fake?

 

such arrogance and disrespect

 

Hey Tulku,

 

Lighten up. Please. There are many paths to the same destination. A lot depends on from where one starts.

 

Just because a person disagrees with someone else doesn't mean they are being disrespectful and arrogant. All it means is that they have a different understanding. And I must say, this is perfectly normal.

 

We all are not going to agree with each other. Many here disagree with me on a fairly regular basis. I don't have a problem with that. We have had different lives and we have learned different lessons.

 

Your goals of detachmentment are admirable. But this form of life is good for only a very few. I could never live such a life.

 

Try a little harder to talk with the other members here instead of talking to them. You just might find that you will encounter less resistance.

 

Best Wishes.

[tulku]

well you are presuming that the goal of practice is to experience the void. you can't even define that because its paradoxically impossible.

 

secondly, there are whole schools that disagree with you based on the premise that if one can realize the emptiness of sex and other sensory pleasures while engaged in them, they can realize the emptiness of anything. in other words, your philosophy works only as long as one is sequestered away and doesn't have to deal with life on life's terms, while an accepting philosophy works everywhere.

 

if you have ever heard of kalachakra tantra, the highest yoga tantra involves using the practice of lovemaking to contemplate and realize emptiness. when you talk about experiencing the void, i assume you are talking about realizing emptiness, since the negation or dissolution of consciousness itself has never been the highest goal of anyone except maybe people who seek death.

 

anyway, your attitude is too rigid for me to take you seriously. in other words, if your path bore the highest fruit, why are you so rigid? one who has realized the void would see the total lack of importance in such matters as these, and would have an all-inclusive understanding, not an understanding that divides into dualistic opposites. you claim to espouse the highest path but your example is one of dichotomy and duality, something we dirty worldly people are trying to transcend in spite of our sexual practices and our love of food.

 

if everyone thought like you the human race would be extinct in a single generation. THEN who would realize the highest truth of void consciousness?? oh wait, everyone. nevermind.

 

if everybody think like me, the race of human beings would be transformed into higher dimensional gods

 

but obviously, too many lay people in this world world prefer the baser lower-dimensional activities of fun,good food and sex than to be a higher dimensional being

[Marblehead]

No.

 

Laymen do what laymen do.

 

Spiritual Cultivators do what Spiritual Cultivators do.

 

Exactly. And if you think that all Spiritual Cultivators follow the same path you have been keeping your eyes mostly closed.

[tulku]

Hey Tulku,

 

Lighten up. Please. There are many paths to the same destination. A lot depends on from where one starts.

 

Just because a person disagrees with someone else doesn't mean they are being disrespectful and arrogant. All it means is that they have a different understanding. And I must say, this is perfectly normal.

 

We all are not going to agree with each other. Many here disagree with me on a fairly regular basis. I don't have a problem with that. We have had different lives and we have learned different lessons.

 

Your goals of detachmentment are admirable. But this form of life is good for only a very few. I could never live such a life.

 

Try a little harder to talk with the other members here instead of talking to them. You just might find that you will encounter less resistance.

 

Best Wishes.

 

I am not here to convince anyone of anything. It is just that after a 90 meditation today, i managed to find a whole new link between all the different bits of information in my head.

 

Everything clicks so as to say.

[Marblehead]

 

I have already stopped any sexual activities and sexual thoughts a long time ago. Plus the fact that I am partaking in a raw food diet.

 

Strange though that you keep mentioning sex. I thought you stopped thinking about it?

[Marblehead]

but obviously, too many lay people in this world world prefer the baser lower-dimensional activities of fun,good food and sex than to be a higher dimensional being

 

There you go talking about sex again.

 

Let it go Tulku!

[tulku]

Strange though that you keep mentioning sex. I thought you stopped thinking about it?

 

I also keep mentioning raw food and void. Am i obsessed with raw food and void?

[Marblehead]

I am not here to convince anyone of anything.

 

I'm glad to hear that. You had me confused there for a while.

 

It is just that after a 90 meditation today, i managed to find a whole new link between all the different bits of information in my head.

 

Everything clicks so as to say.

 

That's great!

 

But please keep in mind that taking the extreme paths will often get you to a point where you become totally lost. Not saying that you are lost but just saying that as a warning from what I have seen in life.

[Marblehead]

I also keep mentioning raw food and void. Am i obsessed with raw food and void?

 

No Tulku. I am just messing with you.

 

Well, on second thought, void might be something I should point to as well.

[tulku]

I'm glad to hear that. You had me confused there for a while.

 

 

 

That's great!

 

But please keep in mind that taking the extreme paths will often get you to a point where you become totally lost. Not saying that you are lost but just saying that as a warning from what I have seen in life.

 

You are partially right. I am lost.

 

I am lost because I once thought this forum had many high-level practitioners and this is why I came here.

 

But obviously, too many people in this forum would prefer sex, good food and fun over samadhi.

 

Even those that engage in sex doesn't even know the true power of sex in helping one attain samadhi.

 

It is very obvious I am in the wrong forum talking with people who lead very different lifestyles than me.

 

Relax, MH, I would be posting very little in this forum from now on.

[konchog uma]

but obviously, too many lay people in this world world prefer the baser lower-dimensional activities of fun,good food and sex than to be a higher dimensional being

 

those two things aren't mutually exclusive. we're all higher dimensional beings whether we realize it or not, and i hate to break it to you, but some higher dimensional beings have fun.

 

i hope your heart and mind soften. bless your path tulku, may you find the peace you seek.

[Marblehead]

You are partially right. I am lost.

 

I am lost because I once thought this forum had many high-level practitioners and this is why I came here.

 

But obviously, too many people in this forum would prefer sex, good food and fun over samadhi.

 

Even those that engage in sex doesn't even know the true power of sex in helping one attain samadhi.

 

It is very obvious I am in the wrong forum talking with people who lead very different lifestyles than me.

 

Relax, MH, I would be posting very little in this forum from now on.

 

Well, it was never my intention to force you away from the board. We here enjoy hearing alternative views. Yours is one. No problem.

 

The problem enters when any member states that they have found the true and only correct path to enlightenment (whatever that is).

 

I won't argue that your path might be the best path for you. And it is fine if you tell us all about your path and the progress that you are making.

 

But when you criticize us for not following the same path you do you are going to encounter resistance. Just the way life is. Most Taoists will not tolerate other people pushing them around and being told that they are all screwed up.

 

As far as I am concerned, you are welcome here. You have started so good discussions. I think you could gain more and share more with others if you wouldn't be so dogmatic about the path you are walking right now. You are walking your talk, aren't you?