Living Life is a totally misconstrued taoist concept

[tulku]

No, that's the very thing he ended up renouncing-- and in fact, he later had to convince his ascetic companions that he had not betrayed the principles of self-inquiry to which he was committed. He was committed to a path of self-inquiry, which certainly requires discipline, but not asceticism, nor the other extreme of self-indulgence. This was why the Buddha originally called it the Middle Way.

 

Don't bother citing the Buddhadharma as an endorsement to your personal ideology-- everything you are saying is contrary to the basic principles of both Theravada and Mahayana, right from the Buddha's very first sermon.

 

The Buddha didn't go back to a life of wealth and sex after enlightenment. He was only 35 years old and still possessed lots of sexual vitality at that age.

 

That alone proves my point that one has to renounce everything in order to successfully seek enlightenment.

[Marblehead]

That alone proves my point that one has to renounce everything in order to successfully seek enlightenment.

 

But your point is ill proven because there have been many who have attained enlightenment without renouncing anything, especially living life as a human, that which we are.

 

Sad so many people feel they have to denounce life in order to find it.

Edited September 4, 2011 by Marblehead

[Jetsun]

it is precisely because i have compassion for your needless suffering that i am stating my views and observations of spirituality.. otherwise i would kept my mouth shut and avoided the countless naysayers who keep pounding on my words of truth..

 

anyway, i said what needed to be said and the rest is up to you..

 

If you really are saying what you saying out of compassion you should reflect on the best way to communicate and connect with the peole you are trying to help, because as soon as you throw insults such as subhuman losers around I can guarantee just about everyone will switch off and ignore everything you say.

 

Throwing insults at people basically means you haven't yet realised that everyone on the planet is doing the best they can to try to be happy and avoid suffering from the level of wisdom they are currently at

[Marblehead]

... everyone on the planet is doing the best they can to try to be happy and avoid suffering from the level of wisdom they are currently at

 

Such a valid statement I just wanted to repeat it.

[baiqi]

Hello everyone. It's been a long time I didn't write anything here.

 

Before answering the "who is right who is wrong", I want to stress a few points I discovered for myself and share.

 

First of all the title "Living life is a totally misconstrued taoist concept" doesn't seem right to me. Living life is exactly what taoism is about!

However, there is the question of indulging into sex, food and such.

 

Tulku says he writes about taoism, but quotes indian (buddhist or hindu?) writers.

 

Philosophical taoism is quite different. I am currently re-reading Lie Zi, he seems to be the complete opposite of that. I remember this story - which quite shocked me the first time I read it- about to brothers ruling a kingdom, one being always drunk, the other one always fornicating. One confucian scholar comes along, complains about this to a famous wiseman, who says that these men are "real men", and that the kingdom is well-ruled thanks to that! (taoist logic: the rulers don't do anything because they're drunk or doing something in their private chambers: so the kingdom is well-ruled!)

 

But not all of taoism is like that, of course. Yes there are some very ascetic people, living in the mountains, in caves, or in the caves in the mountains!

 

Lao Zi talked about "the five colors hurting the sight, the five sounds hurt the ear" and so on. And desire, is considered, just like in buddhism, to be the root of all evil.

 

Contradiction? Oh, yes, but taoism loves contradiction.

 

I personnaly realised that pain and pleasure are like yin and yang. You cannot have one without the other. So the more you indulge into your senses, the more pain you will get in return. And the opposite is true, too.

 

I mean this at all levels, not just the basic physical level. It can be intellectual, emotional etc.

 

So what should we do about it? The ascetic would choose to willingfully feel pain, whipping himself, starving and such; in order to feel pleasure after that. A pleasure he will consider to be divine.

The hedonist, on the other hand usually believes he will have more pleasure by indulging more and more.

 

The two are wrong, unless they realise pain and pleasure go together. The extasy is not necessarily divine. Pleasure won't be everlasting.

 

The goal in my view is to accept both. When you feel pain accept it and see it is transitory, when you feel pleasure, live it fully but know it won't last.

 

There isn't a single way to achieve this. I believe having some discipline is good for most of us. However, it can also be good to "live life fully" in the common sense: going against one's deepest desires is pretty hard, and can be a way for the ego to actually get more power. For some people, however, it is good to do so.

 

So you can choose both ways, the only thing is to realise the duality of the stuff in order to go above it.

[Marblehead]

Very good post Baiqi!

 

I had a self chuckle when I read this:

 

"The ascetic would choose to willingfully feel pain, whipping himself, starving and such; in order to feel pleasure after that. A pleasure he will consider to be divine.

The hedonist, on the other hand usually believes he will have more pleasure by indulging more and more."

 

My thought was that the hedonist will even sometimes take pleasure in whipping the ascetic so that he can feel pleasure later. Hehehe.

[tulku]

But your point is ill proven because there have been many who have attained enlightenment without renouncing anything, especially living life as a human, that which we are.

 

Sad so many people feel they have to denounce life in order to find it.

 

for every single one individual who have attained enlightenment without renouncing anything, there are at least 10 more individuals who have accomplished the same feat by renouncing..

 

when climbing a mountain, there is no need and it is suicidal to needlessly add weights to your backpack

[tulku]

If you really are saying what you saying out of compassion you should reflect on the best way to communicate and connect with the peole you are trying to help, because as soon as you throw insults such as subhuman losers around I can guarantee just about everyone will switch off and ignore everything you say.

 

Throwing insults at people basically means you haven't yet realised that everyone on the planet is doing the best they can to try to be happy and avoid suffering from the level of wisdom they are currently at

 

truth is the truth.. people who cling on to their marriages, sex, good food, cars, wealth, happiness are like subhuman losers to the ones who realize that the most important thing is consciousness and enlightenment itself.

 

now i am telling everyone to donate all your savings and properties to charities .. everybody gotta eat to survive to live to cultivate..

 

but do you need good food to survive? do you need marriage and a mate to survive? do you need lots of good friends and party mates to survive?

[tulku]

Hello everyone. It's been a long time I didn't write anything here.

 

Before answering the "who is right who is wrong", I want to stress a few points I discovered for myself and share.

 

First of all the title "Living life is a totally misconstrued taoist concept" doesn't seem right to me. Living life is exactly what taoism is about!

However, there is the question of indulging into sex, food and such.

 

Tulku says he writes about taoism, but quotes indian (buddhist or hindu?) writers.

 

Philosophical taoism is quite different. I am currently re-reading Lie Zi, he seems to be the complete opposite of that. I remember this story - which quite shocked me the first time I read it- about to brothers ruling a kingdom, one being always drunk, the other one always fornicating. One confucian scholar comes along, complains about this to a famous wiseman, who says that these men are "real men", and that the kingdom is well-ruled thanks to that! (taoist logic: the rulers don't do anything because they're drunk or doing something in their private chambers: so the kingdom is well-ruled!)

 

But not all of taoism is like that, of course. Yes there are some very ascetic people, living in the mountains, in caves, or in the caves in the mountains!

 

Lao Zi talked about "the five colors hurting the sight, the five sounds hurt the ear" and so on. And desire, is considered, just like in buddhism, to be the root of all evil.

 

Contradiction? Oh, yes, but taoism loves contradiction.

 

I personnaly realised that pain and pleasure are like yin and yang. You cannot have one without the other. So the more you indulge into your senses, the more pain you will get in return. And the opposite is true, too.

 

I mean this at all levels, not just the basic physical level. It can be intellectual, emotional etc.

 

So what should we do about it? The ascetic would choose to willingfully feel pain, whipping himself, starving and such; in order to feel pleasure after that. A pleasure he will consider to be divine.

The hedonist, on the other hand usually believes he will have more pleasure by indulging more and more.

 

The two are wrong, unless they realise pain and pleasure go together. The extasy is not necessarily divine. Pleasure won't be everlasting.

 

The goal in my view is to accept both. When you feel pain accept it and see it is transitory, when you feel pleasure, live it fully but know it won't last.

 

There isn't a single way to achieve this. I believe having some discipline is good for most of us. However, it can also be good to "live life fully" in the common sense: going against one's deepest desires is pretty hard, and can be a way for the ego to actually get more power. For some people, however, it is good to do so.

 

So you can choose both ways, the only thing is to realise the duality of the stuff in order to go above it.

 

how is letting go of your marriage, spouse, children, and even the addiction to good food considered to be painful?

 

how is letting go of the desire for more pleasures painful?

 

did i ever say one has to whip himself constantly and inflict other types of pain on himself in order to be enlightened? aka those christian monks found in the da vinci code?

[Marblehead]

for every single one individual who have attained enlightenment without renouncing anything, there are at least 10 more individuals who have accomplished the same feat by renouncing..

 

when climbing a mountain, there is no need and it is suicidal to needlessly add weights to your backpack

 

And what study showed those results? And what defination did they use for enlightenment? I wonder if you can post a link to that study and data?

 

Oh, You might be wanting to increase the endurance of your muscles so adding weight might be of benefit when climbing a mountain.

[Marblehead]

truth is the truth.. people who cling on to their marriages, sex, good food, cars, wealth, happiness are like subhuman losers to the ones who realize that the most important thing is consciousness and enlightenment itself.

 

now i am telling everyone to donate all your savings and properties to charities .. everybody gotta eat to survive to live to cultivate..

 

but do you need good food to survive? do you need marriage and a mate to survive? do you need lots of good friends and party mates to survive?

 

Are you going to sell your computer soon so that you can get on with your cultivation instead of wasting your time with we subhumans?

[Marblehead]

 

did i ever say one has to whip himself constantly and inflict other types of pain on himself in order to be enlightened?

 

I will admit that you haven't gone that far over the edge yet but you did just tell us to sell all our possessions, desert our loved ones and go find a cave to hide in.

 

That would be worse than whipping one's self, in my opinion.

[~riverflow]

subhuman losers

 

This attitude has more in common with Nietzsche's ubermench than any eastern philosophy.

[Marblehead]

This attitude has more in common with Nietzsche's ubermench than any eastern philosophy.

 

NO, it's not even close to Nietzsche's philosophy.

 

That is Tulkuism.

 

He is trying to tell us how wrong we all are and he is more than willing to tell us the absolute truth if we would just shut up and listen to and accept as gospel every word he types for us to read.

 

I never was on to shut up when I felt that something needed to be said. Oh well.

[tulku]

I will admit that you haven't gone that far over the edge yet but you did just tell us to sell all our possessions, desert our loved ones and go find a cave to hide in.

 

That would be worse than whipping one's self, in my opinion.

 

I have never told you to sell all your possessions and desert your loved ones..

 

I merely said.. Eating, Sex, Fun and anything that indulge the senses is WRONG!

 

Obviously if you are already married or have kids, tough luck! You had unwittingly put yourself in a death-trap and you just have to deal with the consequences of your choices.

 

For people like me who had yet to fall into such death-traps yet, then it is vital for us to avoid such traps if we wanna focus on enlightenment.

[tulku]

And what study showed those results? And what defination did they use for enlightenment? I wonder if you can post a link to that study and data?

 

Oh, You might be wanting to increase the endurance of your muscles so adding weight might be of benefit when climbing a mountain.

 

Use your eyes to see.

[Marblehead]

I have never told you to sell all your possessions and desert your loved ones..

 

I merely said.. Eating, Sex, Fun and anything that indulge the senses is WRONG!

 

Obviously if you are already married or have kids, tough luck! You had unwittingly put yourself in a death-trap and you just have to deal with the consequences of your choices.

 

For people like me who had yet to fall into such death-traps yet, then it is vital for us to avoid such traps if we wanna focus on enlightenment.

 

No wonder you are such a grouch. You have never been properly screwed!

 

I am single - divorced - three times. Yes, I had to deal with the errors of my evil ways. But I managed to break all the chains and now I am free to spend countless hours on this forum if I feel like doing so.

[Marblehead]

Use your eyes to see.

 

No, you don't get away with that with me. Either put up or sut up.

 

Don't be referencing something you just made up to prove our intelligence. I have seen right through to the essence of your being.

[tulku]

No wonder you are such a grouch. You have never been properly screwed!

 

I am single - divorced - three times. Yes, I had to deal with the errors of my evil ways. But I managed to break all the chains and now I am free to spend countless hours on this forum if I feel like doing so.

 

mate i have had more sex than you could ever dream of .. which is something i deeply regrets up till this very day

[tulku]

No, you don't get away with that with me. Either put up or sut up.

 

Don't be referencing something you just made up to prove our intelligence. I have seen right through to the essence of your being.

 

just count the number of enlightened masters whom have renounced versus the number of enlightened masters whom have not renounced and you will see my point

[Walker]

If I am suppressing desires, then I suppose the great masters like Nan Chin Huai, Tibetan Monks and Theravada Monks are suppressing their desires too.

 

Eh?

 

I know several people who have studied personally with Nan Huaijin (Nan Huaichin/南怀瑾) and many more who have studied at his teaching institute here in China, including one elderly gentleman who is a longtime disciple of Master Nan's and a very close friend/teacher/mentor of mine.

 

To wit, Nan Huaijin smokes cigarettes, has had two wives, eats meat, drinks some alcohol, and even (and this is really gonna fry your noodle, so please fasten your seatbelt if you bedroom--I mean cave--has one) from time to time has been known to say to his students, "all right, now, everybody crack a dirty joke, the dirtier the better, nobody gets outta here without cracking a dirty joke," just to make sure that people don't all overly serious and curmudgeonly and negatocious on the path. Of course, I do not know him personally and it is true that he is said to have spent long periods of his life practicing very bitterly. BUT, the point stands things are likely not so simple as you think.

 

Guys like you and Body of Light should buck up and learn Chinese and then come live in China for awhile before you go on these sorts of spiels. Heck, you might even be right about cutting off the senses and everything, but who is gonna listen when you're just spouting fantastic babble about the lives of spiritual practitioners you have obviously never met? Nobody.

[tulku]

Eh?

 

I know several people who have studied personally with Nan Huaijin (Nan Huaichin/南怀瑾) and many more who have studied at his teaching institute here in China, including one elderly gentleman who is a longtime disciple of Master Nan's and a very close friend/teacher/mentor of mine.

 

To wit, Nan Huaijin smokes cigarettes, has had two wives, eats meat, drinks some alcohol, and even (and this is really gonna fry your noodle, so please fasten your seatbelt if you bedroom--I mean cave--has one) from time to time has been known to say to his students, "all right, now, everybody crack a dirty joke, the dirtier the better, nobody gets outta here without cracking a dirty joke," just to make sure that people don't all overly serious and curmudgeonly and negatocious on the path. Of course, I do not know him personally and it is true that he is said to have spent long periods of his life practicing very bitterly. BUT, the point stands things are likely not so simple as you think.

 

Guys like you and Body of Light should buck up and learn Chinese and then come live in China for awhile before you go on these sorts of spiels. Heck, you might even be right about cutting off the senses and everything, but who is gonna listen when you're just spouting fantastic babble about the lives of spiritual practitioners you have obviously never met? Nobody.

 

Give us the proof that Nan Huaijin smokes, has 2 wives, eats meat, drinks some alcohol, and even cracks dirty jokes.

 

It is very easy to slander spiritual masters on the net but these spiritual masters know the seekers know the truth more than any blasphemous slandering liar.

[witch]

I look at women with emptiness and a non-discerning eye.

 

 

we are mammals

[konchog uma]

 

we are mammals

 

tulku is a superawesome ascended god being. he is not some submormal loser "mammal" ahem lets show the proper respect.

 

did you know that when you get to be a superawesome ascended god being, you no longer have to cite references when you spout "facts". What a bonus!!

 

i'm gonna cut off my willy i'm in such a hurry to get there

[Marblehead]

tulku is a superawesome ascended god being. he is not some submormal loser "mammal" ahem lets show the proper respect.

 

did you know that when you get to be a superawesome ascended god being, you no longer have to cite references when you spout "facts". What a bonus!!

 

i'm gonna cut off my willy i'm in such a hurry to get there

 

Okay, you got a belly laugh from me.

 

You done good!

 

Hehehe.