How to realize rigpa ?

[Pero]

In addition, i think anyone who wants to self-learn Dzogchen and uncover/stabilize Rigpa should get a copy of this:

 

No one can do that.

 

I agree, a seriously good book... and I am still finding new depths when I re-read portions of it recently. It's very different when you have direct experience and insight and re-read them.

Indeed.

[C T]

No one can do that.

 

Absolutely no one?

 

(scratches baldy head)

[Sunya]

Absolutely no one?

 

(scratches baldy head)

 

He means you can't learn Dzogchen without introduction, but I think a book written by a Dzogchen master can take care of that component.

[Pero]

Absolutely no one?

 

(scratches baldy head)

 

Yes. As far as I'm aware it never happened. People like Garab Dorje don't count.

[Pero]

He means you can't learn Dzogchen without introduction, but I think a book written by a Dzogchen master can take care of that component.

 

This is just your idea I'm afraid, no master in history said you can learn it from a book, as far as I'm aware (hehe).

[C T]

He means you can't learn Dzogchen without introduction, but I think a book written by a Dzogchen master can take care of that component.

Hmm... when i read that remark by Pero, i was actually thinking of some rare self-realized adepts. Not many though. Of course many will make claims, some authentic, some not so. One or two can be found here on the forum lately.

[Pero]

Hmm... when i read that remark by Pero, i was actually thinking of some rare self-realized adepts. Not many though. Of course many will make claims, some authentic, some not so. One or two can be found here on the forum lately.

 

Better to stay clear from people making such claims.

[Sunya]

This is just your idea I'm afraid, no master in history said you can learn it from a book, as far as I'm aware (hehe).

 

A lot goes unsaid. They don't write books for nothing.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Sunya

[Pero]

A lot goes unsaid. They don't write books for nothing.

 

What goes said is that you need a teacher. I doubt you'll find any justification anywhere for going without a teacher.

They write books because there's a better chance there won't be mistakes while transmitting as opposed to having to rely only on memorization.

[C T]

What goes said is that you need a teacher. I doubt you'll find any justification anywhere for going without a teacher.

They write books because there's a better chance there won't be mistakes while transmitting as opposed to having to rely only on memorization.

I would make a similar assertion. Yet, even if there are 5 teachers for every student, if the affinity for Dharma is lost on the student, still it would amount to zilch. On the other hand, if one's potential has been ripened, even tripping over a hedgehog can instantly awaken one's intrinsically perfected Mind.

 

Such exceptional individuals would be the prodigies, spiritual heirs, Vimuktas, those naturally endowed with lhag tong(intuitively perfected insights) from merits accrued from previous mindstreams and such like. Like i said previously, not many of these rare souls can be found nowadays. Yet, the truth remains that beneath the veils of ignorance, our buddha nature and Buddha's buddha nature is exactly the same.

 

 

Also, Your reason cited for books is correct, but its not the only primary reason. One other crucial factor is the awareness that people generally are very much in their heads a lot of the time, and craves intellectual stimulation, so no matter what, books will be read, so dharma writers reckon why not generate a sizable flow of dharmic materials, put them out there, alongside other spiritual literatures ~ at least then, by chance, or by merit, someone's mind somewhere will be transformed and turned towards realization upon exposure to such dharmic reads.

 

If reading the printed word can aid stimulation towards a desire to abandon cravings and desires, why not? One downside of this is when people get hooked on the words and use them as a sort of numbing shield, or perhaps as a justification for their delusional ways. I am sure we have all met folks who seem to get high on showing off how much experience they possess, albeit all gathered from over-indulgence in books and such. Knowledge is great, but there will come a time when all this gathering of knowledge will have to be abandoned, for if not, they could, in time, turn from mental tools of gold to binding chains of rusted iron. This sort of stuckness is the main detriment to Rigpa.

 

Jamgon Kongtrul elucidated the 10 powers of knowledge. The first 9 can be garnered thru doctrinal investigations and deep intellectual penetrations, but the last cannot.

 

These 10 are divided such:

Six powers to vanquish cognitive obscurations

1. Knowing what is appropriate and worthless

2. Knowing how actions will ripen

3. Knowing the faculties of sentient beings

4. Knowing their dispositions, temperaments

5. Knowing the inclinations, aspirations and wishes of beings

6. Knowing where the various paths lead

 

Three powers destroy meditative obscurations

7. Knowing meditative stability, the concentrations

8. Recollecting former states

9. Superknowledge of the divine eye

 

One power destroys fine subconscious traces

10. Knowing peace, the extinction of defilements

 

 

"These 10 powers are the quintessence of firmness, essentiality, steadfastness and unchangeability. Since they possess these four qualities and properties, all ten powers of the Great Sage, of all the perfected Buddhas, are similar to a vajra." -- Jamgon Kongtrul, from the Unassailable Lion's Roar

Edited August 27, 2011 by CowTao

[Pero]

I would make a similar assertion. Yet, even if there are 5 teachers for every student, if the affinity for Dharma is lost on the student, still it would amount to zilch. On the other hand, if one's potential has been ripened, even tripping over a hedgehog can instantly awaken one's intrinsically perfected Mind.

 

Such exceptional individuals would be the prodigies, spiritual heirs, Vimuktas, those naturally endowed with lhag tong(intuitively perfected insights) from merits accrued from previous mindstreams and such like. Like i said previously, not many of these rare souls can be found nowadays. Yet, the truth remains that beneath the veils of ignorance, our buddha nature and Buddha's buddha nature is exactly the same.

You admit yourself they're rare so this is all pointless talk.

 

Also, Your reason cited for books is correct, but its not the only primary reason. One other crucial factor is the awareness that people generally are very much in their heads a lot of the time, and craves intellectual stimulation, so no matter what, books will be read, so dharma writers reckon why not generate a sizable flow of dharmic materials, put them out there, alongside other spiritual literatures ~ at least then, by chance, or by merit, someone's mind somewhere will be transformed and turned towards realization upon exposure to such dharmic reads.

You are talking about the condition today. I think that in the past in Tibet they mostly wrote for the reason I gave. Back then there weren't so many people that could read and those books certainly wouldn't get much if any exposure outside of Tibet. Heck there weren't many people that could read in the rest of the world either. As for today, sure it's kind of like what you say. But that is only for creating interest and turning people towards the dharma. Just from reading a book, even though one might benefit greatly, one will never be able achieve Buddahood.

 

BTW, it's quite ironic that we're discussing this when a book by Shabkar was recommended where he cleary says:

"He who practices the substance of this introduction without having received the transmission is like someone who starts in error on the first day and remains in error until the fifteenth."

 

If reading the printed word can aid stimulation towards a desire to abandon cravings and desires, why not?

Sure but this has nothing to do with transmission.

[Sunya]

But that is only for creating interest and turning people towards the dharma. Just from reading a book, even though one might benefit greatly, one will never be able achieve Buddahood.

 

Maybe it's best to stick to what works for you instead of making absolute statements that apply to everyone. You have no idea what causes or conditions will lead someone to realization. It could very well be a book written by a powerful Dzogchen master. I know people who have attained very deep realizations just by following the words of the Buddha in the Pali Suttas.

[Pero]

Maybe it's best to stick to what works for you instead of making absolute statements that apply to everyone. You have no idea what causes or conditions will lead someone to realization.

A book by itself won't lead any ordinary person. It can be a secondary cause for getting someone on the path but that's not the same as saying that one can achieve Buddhahood from reading books.

 

 

It could very well be a book written by a powerful Dzogchen master. I know people who have attained very deep realizations just by following the words of the Buddha in the Pali Suttas.

Yes well, you don't need to receive transmission to practice sutra. Also, I never said one can't get some kind of experiences from reading books. However if you want to develop, achieve something of real benefit, you need a teacher. It would be nice if after having an experience we thought "oh there's really something to it, I better find a teacher and learn concretely" but it seems we think "oh you can learn from books. I should get more books."

 

Anyway, you seem to think this is something I made up. I didn't. If you want, go argue with Shabkar or other Vajrayana masters and tell them that they're wrong and that they should stop making absolute statements. Now I find it funny that people like to read books of these masters so much and think them incredible and that they've had all sorts of realizations, while ignoring how important their teachers were to the masters. Basically in every text one of the first things is a homage to the teacher.

But I guess I get it, since years back I too thought you could get everything from books.

[Sunya]

Yes well, you don't need to receive transmission to practice sutra. Also, I never said one can't get some kind of experiences from reading books. However if you want to develop, achieve something of real benefit, you need a teacher.

 

I'm not just talking about having experiences here. You're looking down on 'sutra' as if the realization is beneath you or something. Enlightenment in sutrayana is the same as enlightenment in Dzogchen. If it's possible to practice sutrayana through books, then surely it's possible to practice Dzogchen through books. They're both just methods for awakening with clearly delineated instructions. Namkhai Norbu sells many books with practice instructions. Is he putting those out as paper weights?

 

You don't need anything to realize your natural state. It's always available. Sure transmission may help, and to do certain Tantric practices it may be a necessity according to tradition, but the natural state itself is unconditional. It may be a book that awakens you or a flash of lightning in the night sky.

 

Also, I never said one can't get some kind of experiences from reading books. However if you want to develop, achieve something of real benefit, you need a teacher. It would be nice if after having an experience we thought "oh there's really something to it, I better find a teacher and learn concretely" but it seems we think "oh you can learn from books. I should get more books."

 

Books written by masters can serve as teachers themselves. If you have a teacher available to you, then that's great. Most of us don't, so books written by them can replace that role. And yes, there are plenty of books which have complete instructions for realization.

 

You're acting like I'm insulting your deeply cherished beliefs. I'm not saying having a teacher isn't a bad thing and is something not to strive for. Relax

Edited August 28, 2011 by Sunya

[Pero]

I'm not just talking about having experiences here. You're looking down on 'sutra' as if the realization is beneath you or something. Enlightenment in sutrayana is the same as enlightenment in Dzogchen. If it's possible to practice sutrayana through books, then surely it's possible to practice Dzogchen through books.

No, because Dzogchen and the rest of Vajrayana depend on empowerment. Sutra does not.

I was not looking down on sutra BTW.

 

Namkhai Norbu sells many books with practice instructions. Is he putting those out as paper weights?

Don't be ridiculous. The books with practice instruction are for his students, not for people without transmission. And he himself said many many times that you can't just learn from books but that you need a teacher.

 

You don't need anything to realize your natural state. It's always available.

I wasn't expecting such foolishness from you. You don't need anything? Riiight. That's why we're in samsara. Because we don't need anything to realize the natural state. It's always there right? So easy.

 

Sure transmission may help, and to do certain Tantric practices it may be a necessity according to tradition,

It's necessity for all Tantric practices.

 

but the natural state itself is unconditional. It may be a book that awakens you or a flash of lightning in the night sky.

A flash is just a flash.

 

Books written by masters can serve as teachers themselves. If you have a teacher available to you, then that's great. Most of us don't, so books written by them can replace that role.

That's not what the teachers think.

 

And yes, there are plenty of books which have complete instructions for realization.

I'm sure there is no Vajrayana book with instructions that says you don't need a teacher. In any case, having instructions for realization but no transmission from a teacher is like having a manual on how to operate a computer while not having any electricity to actually turn it on.

In Vajrayana, the teacher is the source of blessings and realization. Without the teacher there is no realization.

 

You're acting like I'm insulting your deeply cherished beliefs.

I don't feel like you've insulted my beliefs or something like that Mickaelz. But the thing is that I think that it's unfortunate to have this kind of belief because it will not bring one to Buddhahood with Vajrayana methods and probably also further contribute to the decline of Vajrayana.

 

BTW, what happened with that Tara's Triple Excellence (?) program?

[xabir2005]

Btw angeloio, do read through this thread if you haven't, it is highly informative: http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=4052

Edited September 4, 2011 by xabir2005