Self-moderation as a community effort on The TaoBums

[doc benway]

Stig -

My PM to you was personal. I closed the message with "Just wanted to get that off my chest." Does that sound like a moderator action?

Of course, you get to choose how to interpret it.

I didn't even tell the other mods about it until after the fact.

Your incessant efforts at disrupting the forum including the excellent efforts being made by the mods team led me to write it.

Like a few other members here, I'm tired of watching you try to bully, intimidate, and embarrass Sean and the mod team into giving you your way. Like them, I was hoping to help you see how selfish and foolish your actions have been.

It was not in any way done as a moderator, I'm not really even comfortable in that role yet.

It's awkward to have one foot in each camp, I'm trying my best to walk that line.

It may have seemed like a moderator message because you found it harsh.

It was harsh because I felt that I needed to be direct

If it was done as a moderator, I would have noted that in the message very clearly.

As I hope is very clear on this board, I make great efforts to communicate clearly and unambiguously.

 

My comment about your political agenda trumping your desire to have a personal relationship is a statement of fact based on my direct and personal experience of the past 24 hours.

It is a direct consequence of you taking my personal message and, rather than responding to me personally, responding to me publicly in a very clear framework of your political agenda, including quoting me from a post responding to your agenda from several weeks ago. You are welcome to report me and see if the other mods feel that I broke the no insult rule, despite the fact that I did not report you for publicly posting my private PM. The moderators are not above the "law" as far as I am concerned.I will gladly abide by their decision. Unlike you and Scotty and a handful of others, I respect what they are trying to do here, I am trying to help them as best I can, and I will demonstrate that by trying to make their job easier and the forum more conducive to worthwhile discussion about content, rather than personal agendas.

 

And don't try to make it seem like your action was a knee jerk reaction done without thinking. Your positing of my PM was over 24 hours after I sent it and you read it. You had plenty of time to consider how best to respond. You had plenty of time to send me a PM telling me how angry you are and asking if I was addressing you as a fellow member or from the perspective of a moderator. You're simply trying to justify the way you've been behaving lately.

 

You've been angry for a long time. You're just projecting it at me because I struck a nerve with my PM and my response to your actions.

 

And what are we fighting about here?

Your refusal to allow Sean to see his private forum run as he sees fit with the assistance of a few volunteers who are working in good faith to make this forum a pleasant place to discuss personal cultivation.

 

Selfishness is not living YOUR life the way YOU see fit.

Selfishness is expecting others to live THEIR lives the way YOU see fit.

[zerostao]

i totally disagree with this 100%

 

And this is the bullshit that is coming out of this friken divisive autocratic system. It's a division of members that is CREATING divisiveness amongst members. If we were truly working together as members, as a community, then there would be absolutely no chance or opportunity for this situation to arise where friends are at each other's throats.

 

it is not sean or the mods that are responsible for the divisive bullshit. it is stig mostly and some scotty. the trolls that come and go are only a minor distraction compared to your guys agenda here , imo.

edited

Edited September 10, 2011 by zerostao

[Apech]

Just for the record. Steve sent that PM on his own initiative and as an individual - it was not part of any moderator discussion. It was his own personal reaction to Stig's activity on here recently.

 

I thought several times about writing to him myself but time and just the personal nature of the attacks on the mod team put me off. The mod team are completely comfortable with what we have done and are doing. All decisions including that of suspending Scotty are made in good faith for the ultimate benefit of TTBs 'community'. Its a difficult job to do and we are not so blinkered that we think we get everything spot on every time ... but this is a moderated forum and as such members should for the good of everyone abide by the decisions made. Just to reiterate it was a seven day suspension not a ban or a death sentence.

[doc benway]

 

i will add one more post to the TTC chapter 71 when it comes up. otherwise i am done here.

it has been a great and fantastic experience. truly remarkable. i thank each and every bum here for their insight, understanding,

and compassion.

 

Very sorry to hear that zerostao, I have valued your presence here and hope you return sometime.

This current flame war will burn itself out and hopefully we'll be back to a more tranquil environment in the near future.

Be well and thanks for your contributions, I will miss them sorely.

[sean]

i will add one more post to the TTC chapter 71 when it comes up. otherwise i am done here.

don't leave amigo. just shy away from the drama.

 

sean

[Marblehead]

i will add one more post to the TTC chapter 71 when it comes up. otherwise i am done here.

it has been a great and fantastic experience. truly remarkable. i thank each and every bum here for their insight, understanding,

and compassion.

 

I will ask you here and now to reconsider that decision.

 

I know, I am asking a lot. I consider you a friend. I am allowed to ask a lot of a friend.

 

Of course, I could just skip over Chapter 71 then you could never leave. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

don't leave amigo. just shy away from the drama.

 

sean

 

Do you see that Zerostao?

 

That doesn't happen often.

 

Sean normally stays in the shadows. He has come out just for you.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Do you see that Zerostao?

 

That doesn't happen often.

 

Sean normally stays in the shadows. He has come out just for you.

 

Yeah, that's quite a move from sean

 

don't leave amigo. just shy away from the drama.

 

sean

 

Seriously, pretty much this.

 

I hardly ever go into those big flame bait threads, "why you're doing buddhism wrong", "you need siddhis to be enlightened", "I will tell you how to properly achieve 6th dimension light body", "how to properly circulate your aroused sexual chi to avoid the loss of morning wood", "the truth about dependent origination", etc etc etc etc. I just watch as pages upon pages stack up. Who knows what's going on in there? I don't care. Not my topic, not my battle, not my idea of a good time. Let other people fight it out and get all bent out of shape.

 

Then, lo and behold, some moderator action occurs about some craziness that went on in the threads Good choice to stay away

 

It can be quite peaceful once you realize what threads/posts are obviously triggers to start TTB's World War.... what are we up to? 84?

Edited September 10, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Stigweard]

Ah yes, if you don't like what someone is saying and you have nothing constructive to discuss about the content of their speech or their ideas, then let's all make character assessments and denigrations of the person.

 

Nice job folks!

 

Character assassination really is the lowest form of debate, but I guess it's got you expressing your thoughts and feelings and that's all good

 

hahahaha !!!

 

OK let's get a few responses out of the way:

 

@mjjbecker

 

Let me make it perfectly clear that I am not agitating AGAINST moderators, I am advocating FOR the exploration of ways, means and processes of achieving Laozi's libertarianism here on TTBs.

 

My right and liberty to free-speech entitles me to stand up and say, "Hey guys this is the way I reckon it should be." Yes this is me advocating for my opinion on "how things should be". Again it is my right and liberty to be able to speak freely without people trying to shut me down.

 

Not you, not the mods, not Sean, not anybody has the right to censor my voice in this (unless I break forum rules which clearly I am not).

 

If you don't like my ideas, great say so and I will defend your right to say so (you may have noticed that I follow through on this sentiment). Argue against my ideas, prove me wrong like what has happened in other topics where I have been advocating. I have proven that I will consider people's opinions and arguments and, if in the final analysis I have been proven wrong, I will publicly say so and THANK all those who have helped me understand better.

 

But please don't give me this censorship bullshit.

 

Again it is my right to freely seek, share, and receive ideas and information on this forum UNLESS I am causing harm or undue, excessive offense to other members (aka direct personal insults).

 

And personally insulting moderators?? No my friend there is no incident of me doing that. Yes I have criticized their decisions and the way that have handed out their judgments. And I have criticized the structure of the Mod Team and the way it is managed.

 

But I have been careful not to attack them personally as individuals. Yes no doubt they would have taken some of my criticism personally. But they will only take it personally in as much and in proportion to their attachments to their positions and to the way or process of TaoBums moderation.

 

Because THAT is what I am really focusing on. It's not their fault they are acting in the way they are and I am certainly not saying its Sean's fault either (Sean knows and understands how much respect I have for him and his achievement here).

 

The fault lies in the fact that the way the system is set up CREATES a social atmosphere which encourages people, forces them almost, to behave in a certain way.

 

Case in point:

 

Why is it do you think that the moderators, who all used to be major contributors to the forum, gradually over time post less and less and only really interact with people in times of moderation action?

 

Why is it do you think that over time moderators post only their best wisdom and insight in a hidden forum where no-one apart from other moderators can benefit from their wisdom and experience?

 

Why is it do you think that moderators go from treating people like the friends of equal status they once were to treating other members like naughty little children?

 

Why is it do you think that people who used to be bright sparks of humor and mirth on the forum gradually become so dour that they can't recognize humor when it sitting right in front of their faces?

 

Becoming a moderator on this forum in the way it is set up changes you, it robs you of the enjoyment of being a regular ol' Bum. You lose objectivity, you become insulated in a little bubble. It forces you into becoming authoritarian with members who used to be your friends. It creates a very distinct wall between you and the and the rest of the forum, and it forces you to become more calloused in the face of continual insults and abuse from members you are passing judgement on.

 

I have been there so I am speaking from experience. And just as this happened to me it has and is happening to the members of the Mod Team.

 

Am I being a provocateur?

 

Am I being an agitator?

 

Am I being disruptive?

 

Or am I throwing a lifeline to dear friends who are slowly fading to black?

 

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@steve

 

I would have loved to have been looking you right in the eye when you said that matey. Just personal hey? With no hint of being a moderator at all?

 

B.S. !!!

 

Ahh, but you did tell the other mods though didn't you Steve? What did you say, "Hey guys I have sent Stig a PM"? Perhaps in a thread you guys have got about me on the Concierge Dungeon?

 

Ahh, I see ... so Steve, contrary to your previous claims, your PM to me was NOT a personal message and it was NOT private because you went and told all the other Mods about it behind my back!

 

And you cried so indignantly about me betraying YOUR confidence!

 

 

Don't forget Steve I used to be a moderator, and there were a few times I sent a very similar PM to other members as an unofficial-official moderator's action. Let's put it down as a rookie mistake shall we?

 

 

And IF it was as a friend (which I now don't believe for a second) then you have a piss-poor way of talking to your friends. The whole "I am disappointed in you" was so full of patronizing denigration. It's obvious to me matey that you tried to assume some sort of paternal authority over me and started making character assessments rather than really trying to "get" the reason why I am being vocal.

 

It's like there is a sentiment here that if someone stands up and speaks their mind in an honest and free way (especially if its critical of the Mod Team) there must be something "wrong" with them (coming to you in a second zerostao ).

 

To this:

 

"My comment about your political agenda trumping your desire to have a personal relationship is a statement of fact based on my direct and personal experience of the past 24 hours."

 

Incorrect, it is a statement of your subjective OPINION and BIAS. That's all it is.

 

If we make your argument a standard practice, I could equally say that my opinions about the Mod Team "not working" is a STATEMENT OF FACT based on my direct and personal experience over the past 3 years. As such, because it is now a "fact," there is no way how my statements could be deemed as offensive or insulting to anyone.

 

Furthermore, because it is now a "fact" and because, under your same logic, my opinions on what to do are also a "fact" then it would be also factually correct to say that anyone who disagrees with me is a delusional moron.

 

How far down this rabbit-hole do you want to go Steve?

 

 

So now that we know that your previous comment is in no way a "statement of fact" but only your subjective opinion and bias, and because it was certainly a statement that demeaned and denigrated my character, then I can quite comfortably say that it was indeed an insult.

 

Thus Steve you are now officially in breach of the forum's "No Insult" policy and seeing that you did not have the good grace to rescind on your statement upon my request, as I did voluntarily in my slight against you, but in fact you went further to justify your comment with even more demeaning comments, then I am most definitely requesting FORMAL action from the rest of the moderating team.

 

 

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@zerostao

 

Well matey your whole commentary has been invalidated by your parting statement:

 

"stig, i suggest seeking professional help dude."

 

Yet another direct and personal insult which I want moderators to act upon, and formally request to be informed about the outcome.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

@Apech

 

I appreciate you pitching in. And I certainly respect that in your view the decisions the Mod Team are making and how they are being delivered is all rosy and sunshine.

 

But please respect my right to see it differently and please also respect my right to speak up when I feel that I must. The idea that we should just automatically accept and respect moderators actions and decisions is quite frankly offensive.

 

There should always be checks and balances in any style of management and in here its people who are willing to stand up and say, "Hey wait just a second!"

 

The very notion that moderator's decisions are beyond repeal or question and that you are trying to tell everyone that that is what they should be doing is very disturbing to me. It's about on par with the notion that politicians can do whatever they want and make any law they want and we must just gobble it up without question like good little consumers.

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

@Sloppy Zhang

 

Just letting you know that I am hearing your suggestion and think that what you are suggesting and what I am suggesting can actually work hand in hand.

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now if we are done with my character assessments perhaps we could return to actually discussing content and the ideas being presented.

 

I am advocating FOR the exploration of ways, means and processes of achieving Laozi's libertarianism here on TTBs.

 

Now my version or vision of this is about members having full access and the right to contribute to any and all moderation considerations. The Mod Team is still there and they are the ones still being the enforcers.

 

But their roles change from chief decision makers to:

 

* facilitators and participants of the moderation discussion,

* advocates for the free-speech and liberty of each individual.

 

No more secret discussions. No more we are only upholders of the "law". No more us vs them. No more a few of us managing the rest of us.

 

The division between members and moderators is removed and we all mix it up in the spirit of "us doing it together."

 

[mjjbecker]

[gendao]

Stig's political agenda is more important than cultivating relationships with people.

Well, I think that's actually what would make him a great mod.

 

For example, just about a month ago, he got into a slugfest with Scotty here.

 

Yet now, he has no qualms advocating a political position that may arguably benefit Scotty.

 

IOW, he DOES hold his principles over any personal biases. Which is exactly what you would want in a judicial system, right? Judgment without favoritism or grudges?

 

 

Now, while I do personally support Taoist Libertarianism, I also realize that it may only work in select communities of very self-sufficient individualists. Whereas the masses will generally prefer collectivist control (for either war-making or welfare). Hence, I only proposed a weak compromise (transparent modding) to help alleviate grievances here.

4. Companies do not allow for the discussion of sensitive subjects such as sexual activities and preferences, and religion. This is to prevent litigation and problems among workers. The forum has many such discussions, with the inevitable outcome of arguements and disagreements.

Right, which is one reason why (for better or worse), people tend to broach these taboo topics more on the internet. Because since they are banned from speaking so freely in public life, they need some other outlet! Edited September 11, 2011 by vortex

[Sloppy Zhang]

Now, while I do personally support Taoist Libertarianism, I also realize that it may only work in select communities of very self-sufficient individualists. Whereas the masses will generally prefer collectivist control (for either war-making or welfare). Hence, I only proposed a weak compromise (transparent modding) to help alleviate grievances.

 

I'm down for something like that at the very least.

 

I log in today and see stig is suspended???? For what now? It just ain't clear what's going on. I feel like I missed something

[gendao]

I log in today and see stig is suspended???? For what now? It just ain't clear what's going on. I feel like I missed something

Right, that's my point. If the judicial process here was open record - then you could at least see the thought process behind it. You might not agree with it, but you could at least understand how it was decided. Non-mods would still have no additional mod authority, but they could at least witness the process. This could help alleviate suspicions of bias, foot-dragging, etc.

 

I mean, this wouldn't be a perfect solution by any means - for many reasons. But, there are no "perfect" solutions IRL either - that just goes with the territory of life! You have good and bad calls in any sport, too. Likewise, at the end of the day, life is just an illusory game to work out your personal issues anyways...

Edited September 11, 2011 by vortex

[mjjbecker]

Right, that's my point. If the judicial process here was open record - then you could at least see the thought process behind it. You might not agree with it, but you could at least understand how it was decided. Non-mods would still have no additional mod authority, but they could at least witness the process. This could help alleviate suspicions of bias, foot-dragging, etc.

 

I mean, this wouldn't be a perfect solution by any means - for many reasons. But, there are no "perfect" solutions IRL either - that just goes with the territory of life! You have good and bad calls in any sport, too. Likewise, at the end of the day, life is just an illusory game to work out your personal issues anyways...

 

I would like to see moderators dealing directly with people on the threads, rather than sending any PM's requesting action. If someone has written something offensive or inappropriate, then I would like to see the moderator post on that thread-advising the person of whatever action is expected. People can then see clearly what was done, what action was taken and why. I prefer this to the idea of moderator logs. I'd rather witness the process myself.

 

I don't however feel the moderators are obliged to discuss their personal opinions in public. I used to act on my own volition when I moderated-though I used to discuss matters in private with other moderators. Moderators here seem to like to get a consensus before acting. I think like anyone else they are entitled to private discussions because they are entitled to their private opinions. Once they agree on an action, then I feel whatever needs to be said about a post made in public, should be moderated in public.

 

Example. Someone posts an offensive comment at another member. Moderator points out to this person that their post is inappropriate and asks them to edit it. Member does so, we move on. Member refuses, then moderator takes agreed action-possible suspension, possible direct edit of said post. Requests, decisions and actions done in public.

 

Repeated breaches of the rules/guidelines, or refusal to follow the moderator's request, then by all means suspend or ban people. There will be enough public evidence to show why this action was taken. People may not agree, but they will at least know the reasons why.

 

To allow the moderators to take action in public does mean that other members need to respect the moderator's position of dealing with issues.

[Mal]

A question.

 

As mods we get an icon indicating as soon as a post has been reported and an indication against the thread. Depending on frankly quite a lot of things a mod response can be too late especially on fast paced threads

 

 

I have not even looked into if we can do this with the software

 

but I wonder if a reported post looking like it does to us for every TTB would

 

Help people see that its been reported and settle things down self moderate and hep us have nothing to "do"

Or

Draw people in to watch the potential fight.

 

like when we make an "announcement" as a mod and

 

I log in today and see stig is suspended???? For what now? It just ain't clear what's going on. I feel like I missed something

 

It was really hard for us mods to try and not enflam the situation further by informing of yet another 1st time decision yet keep people informed as to what is going on.

[Mal#2]

as a test (this is why I have 2 accounts) "I reported my own post above."

"

 

edit to add: and I just realised that this is the top of the page post for most people, not with one post above it as this thread has unaproved post, so "I've reported my last post at the bottom of the other page" is true, except for mods.

 

So every mod "knows" about it. Flags, icons, email notifications

 

Yet I'm siting here looking and I see nothing indicating that.

 

So every person looking at my post has to run through.

 

Edited September 12, 2011 by Mal

[Mal#2]

An example of what unapproving a post does one

[Mal#2]

An example of what unapproving a post does two

[Mal#2]

An example of what unapproving a post does three

Edited September 12, 2011 by Mal
Mal edited the posts of Mal#2 but only selected show edit for this one

[Mal]

Hello again

 

So for me in this account I can see

 

An example of what unapproving a post does one

An example of what unapproving a post does two

An example of what unapproving a post does three

 

Nobody else can, but I can switch it back so it reappears later.

 

just a demo FWIW

 

it's just nice to be out in a discussion about moderation without the attacks

[Mal]

and finally I turn off the report indicator for the mods

[mjjbecker]

[Mal]

After discussion between myself and Stig. He has been unsuspended.

 

Moderation only becomes necessary when things go too far.

 

Having a discussion is the focus of TTB.

 

the policy is

 

Tao bums is a moderated, privately owned, web site; all who agree with our guiding principals are welcome to join our discussions:

 

Treat other members with respect. No personal attacks.

 

Moderators are present to enforce this, please abide by their decisions.

 

Help improve TTB by working WITHIN that framework.

[gendao]

[doc benway]

@steve

 

I would have loved to have been looking you right in the eye when you said that matey. Just personal hey? With no hint of being a moderator at all?

 

B.S. !!!

 

Ahh, but you did tell the other mods though didn't you Steve? What did you say, "Hey guys I have sent Stig a PM"? Perhaps in a thread you guys have got about me on the Concierge Dungeon?

 

Ahh, I see ... so Steve, contrary to your previous claims, your PM to me was NOT a personal message and it was NOT private because you went and told all the other Mods about it behind my back!

 

And you cried so indignantly about me betraying YOUR confidence!

 

 

Don't forget Steve I used to be a moderator, and there were a few times I sent a very similar PM to other members as an unofficial-official moderator's action. Let's put it down as a rookie mistake shall we?

 

 

And IF it was as a friend (which I now don't believe for a second) then you have a piss-poor way of talking to your friends. The whole "I am disappointed in you" was so full of patronizing denigration. It's obvious to me matey that you tried to assume some sort of paternal authority over me and started making character assessments rather than really trying to "get" the reason why I am being vocal.

 

It's like there is a sentiment here that if someone stands up and speaks their mind in an honest and free way (especially if its critical of the Mod Team) there must be something "wrong" with them (coming to you in a second zerostao ).

 

To this:

 

"My comment about your political agenda trumping your desire to have a personal relationship is a statement of fact based on my direct and personal experience of the past 24 hours."

 

Incorrect, it is a statement of your subjective OPINION and BIAS. That's all it is.

 

If we make your argument a standard practice, I could equally say that my opinions about the Mod Team "not working" is a STATEMENT OF FACT based on my direct and personal experience over the past 3 years. As such, because it is now a "fact," there is no way how my statements could be deemed as offensive or insulting to anyone.

 

Furthermore, because it is now a "fact" and because, under your same logic, my opinions on what to do are also a "fact" then it would be also factually correct to say that anyone who disagrees with me is a delusional moron.

 

How far down this rabbit-hole do you want to go Steve?

 

 

So now that we know that your previous comment is in no way a "statement of fact" but only your subjective opinion and bias, and because it was certainly a statement that demeaned and denigrated my character, then I can quite comfortably say that it was indeed an insult.

 

Thus Steve you are now officially in breach of the forum's "No Insult" policy and seeing that you did not have the good grace to rescind on your statement upon my request, as I did voluntarily in my slight against you, but in fact you went further to justify your comment with even more demeaning comments, then I am most definitely requesting FORMAL action from the rest of the moderating team.

 

 

Stig - I'll respond to this and then I hope to let it go and disengage.

 

I respect your efforts to try and improve the board. I would even have no objection to your plan for moderation if that was the way Sean wanted to take things.

 

When Scotty was suspended, I felt that you exploited that situation to try and undermine us as moderators. I took issue with that and sent this personal message:

 

Just a brief message to let you know that I'm really disappointed at how you are inflaming the situation. Is it because you want to see Mal fail and implement your own agenda? Is it because you have a bone to pick with the mod team? I wasn't involved when you were a mod and I understand you didn't leave on good terms but do you really need to add fuel to this fire? I've always liked you and I'm just surprised and disappointed. Scotty was trolling, hijacking threads, baiting the Buddhist members, and overall acting like an obnoxious bully. He's always been like that and its overdue for him to be taken to task, IMO. I support the action 100%.

 

Anyway - I know you will do what is in your heart but it would be nice to see a level headed and intelligent member working towards tranquility on the forum rather than sewing seeds of disruption.

Just wanted to get that off my chest...

Be well,

Steve

 

I sent that message from the heart. I was angry and disappointed that you were stirring the pot rather than trying to smooth it out so I sent you the message partly in anger, partly with concern, partly as a friend, partly as a mod, I just wrote it and sent it. I do speak harshly to friends when I'm upset, in fact I would not speak as directly to a stranger. I told no one else until after the fact when I thought the other mods should know that I reached out to you.

 

In terms of what capacity I was in when I sent that, I am just me - part member, part moderator (very small part, just starting), part niceguy, part asshole, and lots of other parts. Did that message come from Stevemod, Steveniceguy, Steveasshole, or Stevemember? I can't separate all that - it was just from me.

 

I didn't cry to the board or the mods but I was a bit taken aback and a bit offended when you posted that message and then I let it go. I honestly felt that your "agenda" trumped our friendship at the time so I commented the way I did. Perhaps I was wrong. As is usual with such situations it escalated from there. I can understand that you also were taken aback and offended by my PM as well as my follow up posts, and yet I hope you can let it go as well.

 

To whatever extent I hurt you, I am genuinely sorry for that and hope we can put this behind us. Everything I did and said was genuine and in good faith as is this:

I'm ready to move on.

 

Be well.