The return of the body light

[exorcist_1699]

I think instead of emphaizing those subjective, visual impressions or feelings, say light or heat( which can be illusory), we get in this process, the significance of Taoist dan , which different from all other Buddhist ways, is its emphasize on the "Ming " aspect ( Life aspect ) of our practice. The appearance of embryonic way of breathing is therefore more critical/reliable than the appearance of light or center of light..etc,because the stop of the old way of breathing and the emergence of a new way of breathing can't be illusory : So strange/ dreadful/ unprecedented it is that people can't imagine and generate it themselves.

 

Besides, capable of initializing it means our capability of starting a tour around some kind of "white hole" and trying to extract its outcoming energy /matter for an eternal life with physical cum spiritual character...

Edited August 25, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[Vajrahridaya]

Very cool Hagar

 

I too have similar experiences. My early Shavite teachers told me that Light [white] is underlying everything, and taught me to send my 'feeling' out past all the other vibrations to that underlying light, and then to just breath and remain 'intuiting' the light behind everything. I found this practice so beneficial on so many levels.

 

Later when I began chigung It was very natural to do my form at this level, and yes, then I found that I could hold postures for a very long time when doing so from that state... And the body adjustments were powerful, And yes, unmindful activity would slowly disperse any good work I had done...

 

to me this plane of energy does feel like the underlying organising structure of the universe...

 

Blessings on your Path

 

 

"White" light is generally the light that is seen first by spiritual aspirants, well... according to Buddhist Tantra, it is the color of the water element and we are mostly water. It's not "useless", but very good to clean this as it has to do with the liver and kidneys, blood... that good stuff should be clean and powerful. It is a kind of an underlying element for Earth kind folks.

[hagar]

Thanks for all the great feedback! Will go into it in detail later.

For now, and as a quick reply to Vs last reply;

 

My initial take on the experience of "light" is actually not visual. I use it more like an analogy for the sense of the experience. My own perception of "light" is a tactile sense of radiation, space, dry sutble heat, still or static emanation that feels collecting and also permeating matter, and even chi, in its conventional sense. ( it that makes sense)

 

Interesting to read that white light is connected to blood and the kidney, as in my system the "essential water" is the what the most dense parts of the physical body consists of. By comparaison the physical essence in the lower Dans is seen as a deep red orb. Then as a spark. Like a star, much like the essential aspect of any celectial body is what is seen as a spark or star in the sky.

 

What intrigues me is the fact that working with the interaction of sparks, the physical body is instantly transformed, energized and rejuvenated. Thus my explanation of the "split second". No process, no accumulation. So health, energy and power is there in an instant, if method is applied correctly.

 

h

[C T]

I am happy to read of your process and progress, H. Thanks for sharing!!

 

See, its not only Buddhists who get to experience the candies!! :lol:

 

Seriously though, it sounds like you have made some significant in-roads to some place where you are able to connect with certain energies that you need at this stage of your practice, so well done!!

 

Great thing is this is not it, There's more, more, more (Well, actually, there isnt, but it will seem as if there is... ) But then, each person is different, so no worries... As Sun said, this may not be a truth, so roll on!

 

Someday, you will be able to reach into these immense founts of energy at will, and then your being will be lost, you will be filled with bliss, and compassion, and clarity, somedays your heart will be so heavy like a stone, but your being will feel so light like as if you can float, and you might be confused by this ~ and some other days you will feel like totally sad even when you see someone kill an ant, for example, yet inside, where the heart is, there will be warmth, and the sensation of a dancing brook, gurgling ever so gently... so there could be conflicting sensations all coming at once, so i thought i better just let you know in case....

 

Naturally, its my wish that you will not have to traverse the slightly choppy terrains, but sometimes its good to be in the know.

 

The best to you, H.

Edited August 25, 2011 by CowTao

[exorcist_1699]

No matter how wonderful , what beautiful things we "see" and experience in this process, unable to open the Magic Gateway condemns our life-time effort to something futile. In order to make sure that our life-time struggle not becoming something wasteful , not becoming something illusory or self-deceit, some kind of reliable criterion has to be adopted.

 

As the emergence of the embryonic breathing is the pre-condition for opening that gateway, it should naturally be the choice...

 

A famous Taoist saying tells us : " 不識玄關, 學道無益" ("It is doomed to be fruitless if we can't recognize the Magic Gateway" )

Edited August 25, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[suninmyeyes]

No matter how wonderful , what beautiful things we "see" and experience in this process, unable to open the Magic Gateway condemns our life-time effort to something futile. In order to make sure that our life-time struggle not becoming something wasteful , not becoming something illusory or self-deceit, some kind of reliable criterion has to be adopted.

 

As the emergence of the embryonic breathing is the pre-condition for opening that gateway, it should naturally be the choice...

 

A famous Taoist saying tells us : " 不識玄關, 學道無益" ("It is doomed to be fruitless if we can't recognize the Magic Gateway" )

Hi exorcist,

I am not familiar with terminology you are using ,but am interested to find out more if you feel like sharing.

What/where is Magic Gateway?And how do you open it?And why is it important to open it?

[LBDaoist]

I have just read your post .It makes sense what you say.

Curious as to what makes you think that concentrating on light would be 'less deep' practise?

Prehaps you have some gem you discovered as to why and want to share?

How do you concentrate on visual stimuli?I mean wherther you have point of concentration or just watch where it arises?

One of the things I find is that it is great for healing purposes ,one can really discover what needs attention(as you have mentioned) and just paying attention how does it come into play reveals a lot.

Just remeberd this Burmese nun I met once and we were chatting about different styles of meditation and sharing things spiritual.She says that when she closes her eyes she sees inside her body -literally and was telling me how she fixed her knee once and could see bones being misplaced.And that this is not so uncommon among long term meditators.

Of course she could be not telling the truth, there is always that,but than again I could not be telling truth either .

 

I had to think about my response for a while, and having done so I realize that working with internal visualizations of the light is not any less deep than focusing on the breathing. Both of them are equally shallow, and far from the ultimate state of mindlessness that can be achieved.

 

I just relax my eyes when the lids are closed and after a few moments the light begins to manifest. It is not at all unlike what happens when the eyes are closed and you rub very hard on the eyelids.

 

I'm not sure about internal visualization to heal broken bones, but I have used it for muscle sprains and other injuries related to kung fu training after speaking with someone else at the temple who mentioned doing the same thing. Basically it was just a practice of relaxation and focused breathing, combined with an intent to will the hurt part of the body to be calm, peaceful and healthy again.

[hagar]

Hello Hagar,

Nice post.

I also had am having similar expirience .Like Seth Ananada I feel that white light is underalying principle,almost like a skeleton for the more gross physical manifestation.

I have mainly come to that expirience through some yogic practises that lead to meditative states.

The thing is IMO opinion and expirience is that light is working with 'you',and that light is not really gathered ,but rather discovered.And shapes or any forms (physical,mental,emotional)depend persons thoughts or how open or closed mind is.

I would be interested to hear what other people think.

What are the effects for working with light?

Trying to find out where does this light come from?Is it produced by me or is it universal substance?How am I relating to it,how is it relating to me ?Why?So many questions can be answered like this ,it is really a beutiful opportunity.

One time when I meditated A LOT for a prolonged period I could just concentrate on question look deeply in the light and would get an answer,amazing answer about all different things.It was answered through the light,its like almost a light language.One starts understanding finer manifestation in a very natural way.Its not like :wow!,its more like :oh yeah,thaaats how it works!.

In my expirience after some time light can become so dense ,it is not coming and going ,so full and bright everything melts in the vacuus 'space' and :wub: deep meditation occurs.

 

Sun; your experiences are inspiring to say the least, especially your way of adressing the light for answers. In my experience, just the act of inquiring in itself towards something like the light, space, emptiness, void or just the silence. It seems not only to evoke and answer, but also an sense of transcending the questioner.

 

As for light; I think it's important to realize that we may be talking about different things here. For me it's definately not a vizual experience, and more importantly, this is induced in something like a micro-level. I feel the effect comes from deep inside the system, and permeates AND collects. there is definately a sort of collection into the Dan, a concentration of the energy in the cavities itself, and through this a form of dynamic relationship towards another cavity is set up, and an exchange is taking place. Another effect is that there seem to be apoint where the cavity is "full" and there is a spilling over into the inner space and the energy continues to another cavity.

 

What you describe seems to be to work more on a macro-level. Am I right?

 

h

[Procurator]

 

 

As the emergence of the embryonic breathing is the pre-condition for opening that gateway, it should naturally be the choice...

u seem to be confusing cause and effect here. a teacher's retort to this statement would be "if there is no embryo how can there be his breathing?

A famous Taoist saying tells us : " 不識玄關, 學道無益" ("It is doomed to be fruitless if we can't recognize the Magic Gateway" )

exactly. and its just the beginning.

[hagar]

Hagar - you observed in your OP something to the effect that "the cultivation involves the disappearance of the cultivator."

 

That's a nice way of describing the state one can enter when in a deep state of qigong/neigong meditation. I have also experienced this, however, could not have expressed it so eloquently.

 

Good post. Not sure about what you mean regarding "the radiation effect". Can you please clarify?

 

Sorry for the late reply. In a sense the radiation effect is just an analogy. It is more like an intimately present static energy vibrating at an extremely subtle level. It feels bright, warm, light and spacious yet "cooked".

 

That's my best shot at it

 

I'm not, like others here, aiming at the big picture, just the immediate experiential side effects, that can be communicated.

 

h

[doc benway]

some people can't discuss the theory in their school, so they point out simmilar theories in other schools when they want to say something of the kind.

 

don't scare him off

 

Good point Little1.

I should know better as I am unable/unwilling to discuss much about my own school of practice.

I made an assumption that may or may not have been accurate and certainly wasn't skillful.

 

Tian Shi - I hope you will accept my apology. _/\_

There was no need for me to get defensive on hagar's behalf.

He's more than capable of responding as he sees fit.

 

 

Litt'e1- Thanks for pointing out my faux pas.

Edited August 27, 2011 by steve
spelling error

[exorcist_1699]

Hi exorcist,

I am not familiar with terminology you are using ,but am interested to find out more if you feel like sharing.

What/where is Magic Gateway?And how do you open it?And why is it important to open it?

 

I wonder Hagar's achievement/experience is close to the opening of the Magic Gateway ,which can be imagined as some kind of " white hole"( expressed in modern jargon) arisen in us ; Magic gateway is a definite stage people will/need to reach if high achievement is targeted ,regardless of what approach, Taoist or Buddhist, they adopt ; however, he does not mention two things/ pre-conditions :

 

1) The appearance or pop-up of a Meta-Mind ('元神')/Budda Heart;

 

2) The rise of the embryonic breathing ;

 

So, I can't judge....

 

Besides, as we already watch too many movies about such a light or similar stuff , and read too many books describing them , I am always doubtful towards people who claim how wonderful a light-related experience they get in their practice, especialy those who adopt a method of visualizing light/ fire /ball..etc from the start.

Edited August 27, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[Aetherous]

That didn't really answer her question. Do you know what magic gateway actually is, exorcist?

[Procurator]

 

 

Lian Shi - I hope you will accept my apology. _/\_

.

 

 

 

oh come on. for what? no offense was taken, ppl nowdays get offended way too easy.

[doc benway]

oh come on. for what? no offense was taken, ppl nowdays get offended way too easy.

Well, for misspelling your name for one thing!

 

Thanks - it is easy to take offense and even easier to offend!

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[hagar]

In my experience, the radiation effect is a result of seeing the world in a different way. So the source of the radiation is a way of seeing. This is in no way restricted to practitioners of spiritual systems. It happens naturally between all humans, and probably other beings (such as trees, dogs, cats, insects, etc...). If we spend time around people who see something as possible, then it becomes more possible, or even probable for us. Even just hearing such a person talk can affect the way that we perceive things, and hence our experience. Experience is not separate from energy, so it can be experienced as energetic effects of interacting (however indirectly) with beings who see things in certain ways. It can work negatively as well, though perhaps the positive radiation is many times more powerful than the negative. The negative just happens to be more common in many respects.

 

Common to many paths, the more developed practitioners tend to see an aspect of all beings that they interact with as inherently positive and powerful. For example, they tend to know that every being has the potential and the reality of affecting both themselves and the world around them. So they are not so much transmitting the positive qualities that they see, but more highlighting them, which has a definite impact. A million dollars that you know you have will have a much greater impact on your life than a million dollars that you have forgotten about and never think to access, to use a fairly crude analogy.

 

I think you are on to something regarding the way perception, on an advanced level seems to induce the same sense in those around. I'd love to look further into it, as I sense this when listening to several teachers. I'd say it could be defined as "transmission" in the broad sense as well. Allthough I feel there's a difference between transmission of lineage-related energies and transmission of our True nature.

h

[hagar]

I think instead of emphaizing those subjective, visual impressions or feelings, say light or heat( which can be illusory), we get in this process, the significance of Taoist dan , which different from all other Buddhist ways, is its emphasize on the "Ming " aspect ( Life aspect ) of our practice. The appearance of embryonic way of breathing is therefore more critical/reliable than the appearance of light or center of light..etc,because the stop of the old way of breathing and the emergence of a new way of breathing can't be illusory : So strange/ dreadful/ unprecedented it is that people can't imagine and generate it themselves.

 

Besides, capable of initializing it means our capability of starting a tour around some kind of "white hole" and trying to extract its outcoming energy /matter for an eternal life with physical cum spiritual character...

 

Yes, in the uniqueness of the Ming aspect its also easy to get lost in the trappings of the actualization of the Dan; sensations, bodily changes, chages in perception, etc. I thing the emphasis on breathing is all but absent in my own tradition, yet I might have not reached this stage og the training yet =). I'm really a beginner expert =). As for the stopping of breathing, and the "white hole", please elaborate; extraction sounds very willed...

 

h

[hagar]

I am happy to read of your process and progress, H. Thanks for sharing!!

 

See, its not only Buddhists who get to experience the candies!! :lol:

 

Seriously though, it sounds like you have made some significant in-roads to some place where you are able to connect with certain energies that you need at this stage of your practice, so well done!!

 

Great thing is this is not it, There's more, more, more (Well, actually, there isnt, but it will seem as if there is... ) But then, each person is different, so no worries... As Sun said, this may not be a truth, so roll on!

 

Someday, you will be able to reach into these immense founts of energy at will, and then your being will be lost, you will be filled with bliss, and compassion, and clarity, somedays your heart will be so heavy like a stone, but your being will feel so light like as if you can float, and you might be confused by this ~ and some other days you will feel like totally sad even when you see someone kill an ant, for example, yet inside, where the heart is, there will be warmth, and the sensation of a dancing brook, gurgling ever so gently... so there could be conflicting sensations all coming at once, so i thought i better just let you know in case....

 

Naturally, its my wish that you will not have to traverse the slightly choppy terrains, but sometimes its good to be in the know.

 

The best to you, H.

 

Thanks CT. You're right, this is not it, as no experience lasts, and should be let go of. I'm just testing out my findings, and try to stay empirical and open to what's unfolding. And the ongoing discovery and experimentation is what keeps it vivid and alive, and not seeping into metaphysics. There's always the option of taking the meta-perspective, yet it's not always so fruitful...

 

h

[hagar]

Good point Little1.

I should know better as I am unable/unwilling to discuss much about my own school of practice.

I made an assumption that may or may not have been accurate and certainly wasn't skillful.

 

Tian Shi - I hope you will accept my apology. _/\_

There was no need for me to get defensive on hagar's behalf.

He's more than capable of responding as he sees fit.

 

 

Litt'e1- Thanks for pointing out my faux pas.

 

I find that the discussion becomes more relevant for the audience if we keep it beyond what type of practice is best/worst/oldest/most authentic etc. Besides, we never do our systems any justice by talking about them in detail. The more generally valid discussions are more fruitful.

 

As for Tian Shi, I have no way of knowing if he speaks from a lofty perspective, yet I value discussion where opinions are backed up by data, and argumentation.

 

h

[hagar]

I wonder Hagar's achievement/experience is close to the opening of the Magic Gateway ,which can be imagined as some kind of " white hole"( expressed in modern jargon) arisen in us ; Magic gateway is a definite stage people will/need to reach if high achievement is targeted ,regardless of what approach, Taoist or Buddhist, they adopt ; however, he does not mention two things/ pre-conditions :

 

1) The appearance or pop-up of a Meta-Mind ('元神')/Budda Heart;

 

2) The rise of the embryonic breathing ;

 

So, I can't judge....

 

Besides, as we already watch too many movies about such a light or similar stuff , and read too many books describing them , I am always doubtful towards people who claim how wonderful a light-related experience they get in their practice, especialy those who adopt a method of visualizing light/ fire /ball..etc from the start.

 

The only thing I am working on is the "Magic Getaway" . The only white hole I see is in my wallet =).

 

I am by NO means on to any great breakthrough, only discussion the very mundane yet comfortable effects of my practice, and wonder if anyone shares the same experiences. Its not anything sublime, nor is there any signposts of anything great. Actually I hope things become pretty dull and straight forward. The objective is health and happy life, and a natural death. If I achive this, there will be profound contentment in this fellow.

 

As for your doubts; This is a great example of the dangers of discussing techniques, as they easily get taken out of context. This makes me certain that I will not discuss any of these practices again. Just to wrap this one up, there is a slight vizualisation in the beginning, and the aim is to induce an exchange of energies between the cavities. After that, the vizualisation is dropped. It is an auxhiliary technique. The same objective of exchange between the cavities can be obtained with only slight intention, yet it takes abit longer.

 

I was hoping for an exchange of actual accounts of the sensations I was experiencing, more for the sake of sharing than to brag. My apologies for those who took it in that way. Probably best to keep subjective things out of this forum. I should know better.

 

h

[Fu_dog]

Hagar... I enjoyed your comments in this thread, though I have to agree these things can be a challenge to discuss in a public forum. I hope you keep posting on such subjects though.

 

I believe the feeling you described experiencing during your practice is perhaps the most natural and enjoyable of states of being. I have only touched the boundary of this state at times in my own practice. However, after several years of practice I know for sure I am only the barest beginner.

 

Also, I did click on the link you provide to your blog. Some very good stuff there. I wish you all the best as you continue your path.

[suninmyeyes]

Sun; your experiences are inspiring to say the least, especially your way of adressing the light for answers. In my experience, just the act of inquiring in itself towards something like the light, space, emptiness, void or just the silence. It seems not only to evoke and answer, but also an sense of transcending the questioner.

 

As for light; I think it's important to realize that we may be talking about different things here. For me it's definately not a vizual experience, and more importantly, this is induced in something like a micro-level. I feel the effect comes from deep inside the system, and permeates AND collects. there is definately a sort of collection into the Dan, a concentration of the energy in the cavities itself, and through this a form of dynamic relationship towards another cavity is set up, and an exchange is taking place. Another effect is that there seem to be apoint where the cavity is "full" and there is a spilling over into the inner space and the energy continues to another cavity.

 

What you describe seems to be to work more on a macro-level. Am I right?

 

h

Hi Hagar,

OK , I thought that you actually see the light. I actually see it in my body ,sometimes with my eyes open and outlining everything around me. This is happens more often depending on how much I practise or how open/sorted I am.

I think different people have different abilities awaken through meditations and cultivation,so some can see the light and others feel it.One light.

Your expirience makes sense .

In my expirience light needs to fill up whole of the body , than something turns upside down and permanent change occurs where the system starts to function differently and I feel hooked up with my surronding and univerese and I feel as I am not breathing ,but I am being breathed through the whole body .The light is pouring in .This has been a little confusing for me and has caused some uphieval in my system ,but I have learned not to resist the change by dealing with my mental/emotinal responses and ideas.Did anything written here make any sense I wonder..

My use of language is my own as I dont know all this terms.I like to practise, but am not so much into study (got other interests going on).

Thank you very much for sharing.Actually I would love to see more post of this kind where we share and exchange personal expiriences openly with different practises etc.on the threads and not only in personal practise forum.

Just read your last post to exorcist.You definetly didnt come across as bragging to me. And I am looking forward to your next thread of this kind again!

[suninmyeyes]

I wonder Hagar's achievement/experience is close to the opening of the Magic Gateway ,which can be imagined as some kind of " white hole"( expressed in modern jargon) arisen in us ; Magic gateway is a definite stage people will/need to reach if high achievement is targeted ,regardless of what approach, Taoist or Buddhist, they adopt ; however, he does not mention two things/ pre-conditions :

 

1) The appearance or pop-up of a Meta-Mind ('元神')/Budda Heart;

 

2) The rise of the embryonic breathing ;

 

So, I can't judge....

 

Besides, as we already watch too many movies about such a light or similar stuff , and read too many books describing them , I am always doubtful towards people who claim how wonderful a light-related experience they get in their practice, especialy those who adopt a method of visualizing light/ fire /ball..etc from the start.

Thanks for anwsering it kind of makes sense more intuitivly as to what Magic Gateway is.

The fact that hagar found sense of contentment and ease speak more than enough about his practise moving in the right direction and that is what is important.

[Todd]

Allthough I feel there's a difference between transmission of lineage-related energies and transmission of our True nature.

 

 

 

How so?

 

I see it as operating on the same spectrum. There is recognition of true nature, which is a way of seeing things, or a way of being. There are many ways of being that can be highlighted within such a broader way of being, and that is the realm of lineage-related energies as far as I am concerned. So, a teacher may recognize true nature in himself and hence in others, and there will be a natural transmission of this to others, just as any state of consciousness is transmitted. The transmission is not so much a transference as a highlighting or a resonance.

 

Teachers do not only experience a recognition of true nature though. They also have histories and conditioning. A part of their experience is an imprint of the ways that they came to this recognition, and if they had teachers, the way their teachers came to this recognition. This is where the lineage energies come from, in my opinion. It is not all historical, though, since they may be tapping into present influences that tend toward recognition of true nature, or other unfoldings, and this tapping in can be evoked and perhaps directly transferred.

 

It gets kinda complicated if you think about it, but I'm not sure that it is much different from learning any skill, or the transmission of emotional tendencies, viewpoints, etc... One can see these things as being present influences, which one taps into.

 

I am curious on your viewpoint, since I am sure that mine is not really complete.

 

As an aside, I applaud your inclination to value current experience over metaphysical explanation in cultivation, especially where metaphysical explanation would seem to discount or bypass current experience.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Todd