Most people are afraid of Void as Void = Death and Loss

[tulku]

In all Spiritual Traditions, one is taught to kill the human ego in order to reach the Void and attain enlightenment.

 

The Void or Pure Consciousness is the state of the universe before one is born, before the planets and the universe is created, before the stars are created.

 

When a biological life die, its soul or essence will break down into subatomic elements before disappearing into the Void.

 

Most biological life have to die before becoming one with the void.

 

It is only humans who have the ability to become one with the void while remaining alive.

 

However, the human ego or animal ego is afraid of being killed so it unceasingly force all of us to indulge in our senses through sex, good food and fun.

 

This is why most of us find it impossible to let go of the mara of sex, good food and fun. It is because our human ego refuse to let us do so.

 

When one indulge in one's senses, one's mind is prevented from going still and becoming one with the void.

 

How would you kill your human ego?

Edited August 22, 2011 by tulku

[Jetsun]

I don't think you can kill the ego, you can see the unnecessary suffering and stress it causes you to believe in it too tightly though and then decide to relax your grasping at it. Maybe you mean the same thing but killing implies violence and any sort of violence is counterproductive.

[Mal]

"How would you kill your human ego?"

 

Why would I want to kill it/me? It/I will just naturally die one day.

[Marblehead]

How would you kill your human ego?

 

I don't want to kill my ego. I love my ego just as much as I love all other aspects of what I am. (Well, there are a couple exceptions but we won't talk about them.)

 

I will protect it to the very end.

[tulku]

I don't want to kill my ego. I love my ego just as much as I love all other aspects of what I am. (Well, there are a couple exceptions but we won't talk about them.)

 

I will protect it to the very end.

 

A few years ago, I met some really powerful dark spiritual masters. Not Satanists but the real dark power players.

 

They offered me plenty of money, women, power, even spiritual power if I join them.

 

I told them I only want my Godly Ego to rise, take over my body and kill my Human Ego.

 

They ask me what's wrong with the Human Ego. They say they will protect their Human Ego right to the very end.

 

The same thing which you are saying right now, MH.

[~riverflow]

To come from a Buddhist perspective here:

 

In Buddhism, "void" isn't mere nothingness-- emptiness (sunyata) signifies that nothing has any independent self that exists by its own power. Everything is connected in an infinite network of interdependence. That, in a nutshell, is sunyata. It has nothing to do with the obliteration of self. This is an all-too-common misunderstanding of "no-self" and "emptiness" in Buddhism.

 

Selflessness-- at least in the Buddhist context-- doesn't mean some sort of opposition to the ego: one does not attempt to rid oneself of one's self (which is impossible to do, and besides, its just creating yet another duality). Rather, one seeks to realise that an independently existing self was an illusion all along. And yet, one still "chops firewood and carries water."

 

We divide ourselves from the world, and ourselves from ourselves and we believe these to be permanent entities with permanent characteristics. One does not need to transcend the physical world, one need only transcend one's own reifying concepts upon the world and upon ourselves. In a sense, there really isn't even anything "mystical" about it. There is no place to go but right here: this.

[laughingblade]

Before enlightenment: feed the trolls.

After enlightenment: feed the trolls.

 

[C T]

To come from a Buddhist perspective here:

 

In Buddhism, "void" isn't mere nothingness-- emptiness (sunyata) signifies that nothing has any independent self that exists by its own power. Everything is connected in an infinite network of interdependence. That, in a nutshell, is sunyata. It has nothing to do with the obliteration of self. This is an all-too-common misunderstanding of "no-self" and "emptiness" in Buddhism.

 

Selflessness-- at least in the Buddhist context-- doesn't mean some sort of opposition to the ego: one does not attempt to rid oneself of one's self (which is impossible to do, and besides, its just creating yet another duality). Rather, one seeks to realise that an independently existing self was an illusion all along. And yet, one still "chops firewood and carries water."

 

We divide ourselves from the world, and ourselves from ourselves and we believe these to be permanent entities with permanent characteristics. One does not need to transcend the physical world, one need only transcend one's own reifying concepts upon the world and upon ourselves. In a sense, there really isn't even anything "mystical" about it. There is no place to go but right here: this.

Nicely said.

[Marblehead]

A few years ago, I met some really powerful dark spiritual masters. Not Satanists but the real dark power players.

 

They offered me plenty of money, women, power, even spiritual power if I join them.

 

I told them I only want my Godly Ego to rise, take over my body and kill my Human Ego.

 

They ask me what's wrong with the Human Ego. They say they will protect their Human Ego right to the very end.

 

The same thing which you are saying right now, MH.

 

I think you are telling us faery stories again.

[C T]

Each breath we take, we already partake in an exchange with the rising and abating of the Void.

 

First recognizing, then practice to stabilize recognition. Its not that complex. As your practice begin to deepen and you become less distracted, the ego's contracting nature, like a scab, will 'heal', and thus fall off by itself, naturally, without you having to work at it.

 

You could force a premature peeling off of the scab, but then that would create another scar, and another scab, and so forth.

 

Eventually, the wound still dries up and heals, but the process would have been made less strife-filled if right at the start you had decided not to tamper with it and simply let it be, without being overly concerned or irritated by its presence. After all, its not something that remains permanently, but if you keep working at it and working at it, you will notice that even after the scab falls off, the skin will leave a sort of imprint of what went on prior. Mind works the same way - Think energetic scabs. Trying too hard to dissolve the ego is similar in principle.

 

Also, i think adding more intellectual analyses to try and achieve the Void is null and void. Its like trying to grow an extra head next to the one that is already present. This creates more of a hindrance than a help.

 

Find a practice that suits you, and keep at it. Try not to distract yourself with too many discursive imaginings. One day, you will feel lighter, airier, and less argumentative. By then, thru no direct action (like peeling off the scab before its time) you will have the fruit of your practice, revealed in all its splendor.

[Marblehead]

Talk about attachment!

 

Yep. The 'package' wouldn't be complete without it.

 

Do you wine and dine it too?

 

Yes, indeed I do. But only on occassion. Don't want it to become dependant and lazy.

[thelerner]

In all Spiritual Traditions, one is taught to kill the human ego in order to reach the Void and attain enlightenment.

 

The Void or Pure Consciousness is the state of the universe before one is born, before the planets and the universe is created, before the stars are created.

 

When a biological life die, its soul or essence will break down into subatomic elements before disappearing into the Void.

 

Most biological life have to die before becoming one with the void.

 

It is only humans who have the ability to become one with the void while remaining alive.

 

However, the human ego or animal ego is afraid of being killed so it unceasingly force all of us to indulge in our senses through sex, good food and fun.

 

This is why most of us find it impossible to let go of the mara of sex, good food and fun. It is because our human ego refuse to let us do so.

 

When one indulge in one's senses, one's mind is prevented from going still and becoming one with the void.

 

How would you kill your human ego?

 

Do you realize that people may disagree with many of your suppositions. You think there is consensus on what all 'spiritual' religions believe about the ego (Personally I think your first 'All' statement is wrong). Your statement about the subatomic breakdowns at death are questionable, maybe unknowable. Even your supposition that sex, good food, and fun are mara is questionable and full of assumptions.

 

You're an ascetic? Is living life meaningless to you? Do you consider all enjoyments detrimental? Is your ultimate to be a plant or rock or never been born?

 

Personally yuck. Nature has made you (us) a man. Be a good man, enjoy what the earth has to offer, you're here. Nothing wrong with tempering desires. The ascetic path is a fine for some, but its an extreme, some times a very prideful one.

 

We all have to accept death as a part of nature, but for those who enjoy life its a sane desire to put it off. No worries, its waiting there for us.

 

I don't think the ego is the enemy. Not if its understood, worked on, matured. The delights I find in people are because they're different. I enjoy them as much for there foibles as there good qualities (with certain caveats to hurting others).

 

At at an ice cream store its fine to choose rocky road over vanilla. Its okay to enter the store in first place. Whats wrong is to obsess over ice cream, a flavor; but nothing wrong with a preference, nothing wrong with enjoying a cone. A man licking a cone may be as close to enlightenment as the man in zazen.

 

I believe the definition of ego we're working with is that which makes us think we're separate from all else And that which drives us to seek pleasure and avoid pain.

 

If you've put away ego then you are one with me, thus you totally agree with me . If you disagree with me, it may be due to some desire to be right, how egotistical . Hell if you're even formulating an answer to this you're being very intellectual, which is also connected to egotism.

 

To harp against egotism is like trying to spread the religious decree of 'Never say Jehovah'. It easily gets comedic and paradoxical, imo. Likewise, perhaps its best taught by example not words.

Edited August 22, 2011 by thelerner

[tulku]

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Edited September 8, 2011 by Mal
copyrighted material removed

[tulku]

Do you realize that people may disagree with many of your suppositions. You think there is consensus on what all 'spiritual' religions believe about the ego (Personally I think your first 'All' statement is wrong). Your statement about the subatomic breakdowns at death are questionable, maybe unknowable. Even your supposition that sex, good food, and fun are mara is questionable and full of assumptions.

 

You're an ascetic? Is living life meaningless to you? Do you consider all enjoyments detrimental? Is your ultimate to be a plant or rock or never been born?

 

Personally yuck. Nature has made you (us) a man. Be a good man, enjoy what the earth has to offer, you're here. Nothing wrong with tempering desires. The ascetic path is a fine for some, but its an extreme, some times a very prideful one.

 

We all have to accept death as a part of nature, but for those who enjoy life its a sane desire to put it off. No worries, its waiting there for us.

 

I don't think the ego is the enemy. Not if its understood, worked on, matured. The delights I find in people are because they're different. I enjoy them as much for there foibles as there good qualities (with certain caveats to hurting others).

 

At at an ice cream store its fine to choose rocky road over vanilla. Its okay to enter the store in first place. Whats wrong is to obsess over ice cream, a flavor; but nothing wrong with a preference, nothing wrong with enjoying a cone. A man licking a cone may be as close to enlightenment as the man in zazen.

 

I believe the definition of ego we're working with is that which makes us think we're separate from all else And that which drives us to seek pleasure and avoid pain.

 

If you've put away ego then you are one with me, thus you totally agree with me . If you disagree with me, it may be due to some desire to be right, how egotistical . Hell if you're even formulating an answer to this you're being very intellectual, which is also connected to egotism.

 

To harp against egotism is like trying to spread the religious decree of 'Never say Jehovah'. It easily gets comedic and paradoxical, imo. Likewise, perhaps its best taught by example not words.

 

all enjoyments are indulging the senses and should be avoided cos the indulgence of the senses will dull the mind

 

this is why theravada, tibetan and even taoist masters recommend culling the senses to reach the Void

 

you obviously have not encountered the Void yet

Edited August 22, 2011 by tulku

[~riverflow]

Nicely said.

 

Thank you, CowTao. Still very much learning, but I had to make mention of it!

 

cheers,

~josh

[C T]

Thank you, CowTao. Still very much learning, but I had to make mention of it!

 

cheers,

~josh

Its good that you have mentioned it, Riverflow.

 

Many here know this concept very well, as it has been discussed quite a bit over the years. Yet, its always nice to hear a new voice lending a fresh perspective to a timeless, efficacious subject.

 

and btw, a warm welcome to TTB!

[thelerner]

all enjoyments are indulging the senses and should be avoided cos the indulgence of the senses will dull the mind

 

this is why theravada, tibetan and even taoist masters recommend culling the senses to reach the Void

 

you obviously have not encountered the Void yet

I may have peeked at if once or twice.

Ah, but have you? How much of the day do you spend in void?

 

If you gave 5 examples of historical ( ie decent records, beyond mythologized accounts) of those who you consider 'made it'. If there examples of them partakinqg simple pleasures would that disqualify them in your eyes? Is your idealized master a plant like being who sits near comatose most of time?

 

The spiritual teachers I admire have a sense of balance, even those who partake of rigorous training, also have periods of disciplined normality. I admire monks. There are many good lessons in simplicity and a quiet mind we can learn from them, but it's certainly not a a path for the wide public. It certainly almost guarantees spiritual results but it may not be the most worthwhile life.

 

There is a time to seal the senses and a time to open them up and enjoy the world around us. Balance.

 

Forget the murky term of enlightenment. To be a complete human being means ..an unforced naturalness, flexibility, a master of living who enjoys the world and doesn't run from it.

Edited August 22, 2011 by thelerner

[lifeforce]

all enjoyments are indulging the senses and should be avoided cos the indulgence of the senses will dull the mind

 

this is why theravada, tibetan and even taoist masters recommend culling the senses to reach the Void

 

you obviously have not encountered the Void yet

 

Your posts are boring and repetetive Bodyoflight. Get off your high horse man.

[tulku]

I may have peeked at if once or twice.

Ah, but have you? How much of the day do you spend in void?

 

If you gave 5 examples of historical ( ie decent records, beyond mythologized accounts) of those who you consider 'made it'. If there examples of them partakinqg simple pleasures that would disqualify them in your eyes? Is your idealized master a plant like being who sits near comatose most of time?

 

The spiritual teachers I admire have a sense of balance, even those who partake of rigorous training, also have periods of disciplined normality. I admire monks. There are many good lessons in simplicity and a quiet mind we can learn from them, but it's certainly not a a path for the wide public. It certainly almost guarantees spiritual results but it may not be the most worthwhile life.

 

There is a time to seal the senses and a time to open them up and enjoy the world around us. Balance.

 

Forget the murky term of enlightenment. To be a complete human being means ..an unforced naturalness, flexibility, a master of living who enjoys the world and doesn't run from it.

 

The only complete human is one who has permanent 24-hour access to the void. That is the true meaning of enlightenment. The only complete human is one who has achieved samadhi permanently.

 

People like the following masters who can remain in emptiness for perpetuity are complete humans. You and me, we who have not achieved permanent samadhi, we are incomplete.

 

Our brains have the animal-desire/human-ego nervous system and the higher mind/godly ego rational mind nervous system.

 

The more pleasures you engage in, the more your animal-desire/human-ego nervous system will flare up and the more the higher mind/godly ego rational mind nervous system will shut down and the harder it will be for you to achieve samadhi.

 

The less pleasures you engage in, the more your animal-desire/human-ego nervous system will shut down and the higher the capabilities of the higher mind/godly ego rational mind nervous system and the easier you will achieve samadhi.

 

As expected, you do not have permanent 24-hour access to the void so i do not think anyone should even give any ounce of attention to your words.

 

If anyone doubt my words, just look at the teachings of the accomplished masters of various traditions in my recent threads. Both Taoist and Buddhist masters describe the same method of achieving samadhi.

 

But then michael, i don't think you are interested in achieving samadhi in the first place.

[thelerner]

I suspect you know very little about the people in the video. Have you studied them, know there names, traditions? I think you project your ideals onto them. The truth may be quite different.

 

I suspect you don't have a live teacher, a real teacher would challenge some of your assumptions.

[Lucky7Strikes]

@ Tulku

 

Your understanding of void is not the Buddhist understanding. You need to read what riverflow wrote.

 

There is something twisted about your view here. If all biological beings all return to this "Void" upon death, what's the point of entering it while being alive anyway? Why not just wait until you die?

 

Also, it is in my experience that people don't fear death or entering some void. Our cultures does it all the time by numbing themselves through mindless entertainment and substances.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Seth Ananda]

@ Tulku

 

Your understanding of void is not the Buddhist understanding. You need to read what riverflow wrote.

 

There is something twisted about your view here. If all biological beings all return to this "Void" upon death, what's the point of entering it while being alive anyway? Why not just wait until you die?

 

Also, it is in my experience that people don't fear death or entering some void. Our cultures does it all the time by numbing themselves through mindless entertainment and substances.

nicely put my friend

[tulku]

@ Tulku

 

Your understanding of void is not the Buddhist understanding. You need to read what riverflow wrote.

 

There is something twisted about your view here. If all biological beings all return to this "Void" upon death, what's the point of entering it while being alive anyway? Why not just wait until you die?

 

Also, it is in my experience that people don't fear death or entering some void. Our cultures does it all the time by numbing themselves through mindless entertainment and substances.

 

samadhi is the state of entering the void

 

one is only focused on entering the void when one is able to see through and gets sick of the great illusion which is our world.

[tulku]

I suspect you know very little about the people in the video. Have you studied them, know there names, traditions? I think you project your ideals onto them. The truth may be quite different.

 

I suspect you don't have a live teacher, a real teacher would challenge some of your assumptions.

 

the truths which I possess do not come from myself but from established teachers of past and present history..

 

if i am wrong, then all the teachers whom i got the truths from are wrong as well..

 

do you profess to know the truth? do you profess to know more about the truth than the teachers who gave the truth to me?

 

i may not know everything michael but at least i know more than you..

 

that one thing i am sure of..

Edited August 25, 2011 by tulku

[Stigweard]

A few years ago, I met some really powerful dark spiritual masters. Not Satanists but the real dark power players.

 

They offered me plenty of money, women, power, even spiritual power if I join them.

 

I told them I only want my Godly Ego to rise, take over my body and kill my Human Ego.

 

They ask me what's wrong with the Human Ego. They say they will protect their Human Ego right to the very end.

 

The same thing which you are saying right now, MH.

Damn ... I just knew it ... I did, I did ...

 

Marblehead is the dark lord !!!!