Most people are afraid of Void as Void = Death and Loss

[Sunya]

the truths which I possess do not come from myself but from established teachers of past and present history..

 

if i am wrong, then all the teachers whom i got the truths from are wrong as well..

 

do you profess to know the truth? do you profess to know more about the truth than the teachers who gave the truth to me?

 

i may not know everything michael but at least i know more than you..

 

that one thing i am sure of..

 

Um, not Buddhist teachers I hope? As already mentioned, the goal of Buddhism is not samadhi. The formless jhana of infinite consciousness was found by the Buddha 2,500 years ago to not be the cure for suffering, because even in that state of samadhi there is suffering and no wisdom or compassion. The Buddha's enlightenment then happened when he realized that no state of mind, whether gross, subtle, or formless, leads to liberation. Liberation cannot be achieved just through letting go. If you don't integrate, you create a false duality between "pure consciousness" and the world of form and other beings.

 

The Void is not anymore special than the World.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Just look and see what 'is', you are endowed with the capacity to see clearly.. if someone tells you 'what' to see, be cautious.. if someone tell you 'how' to see, be cautious.. if someone says, "lets look and see", look and see.. neither the drunk in the gutter nor Buddha is greater nor lesser than you, look, and see this, too..

 

Be well..

[Lucky7Strikes]

samadhi is the state of entering the void

 

one is only focused on entering the void when one is able to see through and gets sick of the great illusion which is our world.

I think you have this a bit backwards.

 

Samadhi is the expression of the void. If you understand voidness, samadhi occurs naturally, and everything is already in zazen.

 

I sense that a lot of your conviction and knowledge comes from Nan Huai Chin's material.

 

There are numerous stories both in Hinduism and Buddhism warning against falling into timeless samadhis that neither conjure wisdom or compassion. One that comes to mind is a yogi who decided to meditate on the river banks, and right before doing so he asks his attendant to fetch him water. Before the attendant returns, the yogi falls into samadhi and years pass by, but then the river floods and the yogi wakes up from his meditation neck deep in water, yet he instead calls for his attendant to fetch him water. Or something like that.

[Bubbles]

Greetings..

 

Just look and see what 'is', you are endowed with the capacity to see clearly.. if someone tells you 'what' to see, be cautious.. if someone tell you 'how' to see, be cautious.. if someone says, "lets look and see", look and see.. neither the drunk in the gutter nor Buddha is greater nor lesser than you, look, and see this, too..

 

Be well..

 

Your friendly post is a total waste of time. Tulku lives in his own world of truths and he is abundantly sharing them here no matter we like it or not.

[Lucky7Strikes]

the truths which I possess do not come from myself but from established teachers of past and present history..

 

if i am wrong, then all the teachers whom i got the truths from are wrong as well..

 

do you profess to know the truth? do you profess to know more about the truth than the teachers who gave the truth to me?

 

i may not know everything michael but at least i know more than you..

 

that one thing i am sure of..

What? And you apparently know what all these teachers taught? If you and neither michael know, why don't you cut the crap on "most people blah blah" and a generally condescending attitude you've been displaying here and study a bit more with an open mind?

 

You've drawn an unnecessary line here between "you" and "everyone else who are not good enough compared to me." Why does this division even arise in your mind in the first place? It's just a very unnecessary thought that probably reveals more about yourself than samadhi, void, or whatever esoteric stuff.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[zerostao]

Greetings..

 

Just look and see what 'is', you are endowed with the capacity to see clearly.. if someone tells you 'what' to see, be cautious.. if someone tell you 'how' to see, be cautious.. if someone says, "lets look and see", look and see.. neither the drunk in the gutter nor Buddha is greater nor lesser than you, look, and see this, too..

 

Be well..

i agree it is good for one to look and see for themself. in my observations(and you can observe alot sometimes just by looking) the only folks i have ever met who were afraid of death were the ones who were not satisfied

with their life.

[C T]

i agree it is good for one to look and see for themself. in my observations(and you can observe alot sometimes just by looking) the only folks i have ever met who were afraid of death were the ones who were not satisfied

with their life.

Interesting note, Zero!

 

Could you give an example or two of how one can derive satisfaction from life?

 

It could be that the more satisfied one is, the greater the fear of death? After all, many people stuff their lives with all sorts of material things, and spiritual things as well, with the intention of satiating something which they felt was missing, and create cycles of acquisitions, from the grosser physical things to the subtler mental and spiritual things... Some want to live forever, and achieve immortality, you know what i mean? Imagine the impact of finally knowing, at death's door, that one has fallen way short of that? What to do then?

Edited August 25, 2011 by CowTao

[RiverSnake]

Mu

 

My 2 cents

 

-Peace

Edited August 25, 2011 by OldGreen

[tulku]

Um, not Buddhist teachers I hope? As already mentioned, the goal of Buddhism is not samadhi. The formless jhana of infinite consciousness was found by the Buddha 2,500 years ago to not be the cure for suffering, because even in that state of samadhi there is suffering and no wisdom or compassion. The Buddha's enlightenment then happened when he realized that no state of mind, whether gross, subtle, or formless, leads to liberation. Liberation cannot be achieved just through letting go. If you don't integrate, you create a false duality between "pure consciousness" and the world of form and other beings.

 

The Void is not anymore special than the World.

 

You would be the first buddhist practitioner i know who doesn't achieve liberation through samadhi.

 

The World is only an expression of the Void.

 

Once you become the Void, you can create any World which you want.

Edited August 25, 2011 by tulku

[tulku]

I think you have this a bit backwards.

 

Samadhi is the expression of the void. If you understand voidness, samadhi occurs naturally, and everything is already in zazen.

 

I sense that a lot of your conviction and knowledge comes from Nan Huai Chin's material.

 

There are numerous stories both in Hinduism and Buddhism warning against falling into timeless samadhis that neither conjure wisdom or compassion. One that comes to mind is a yogi who decided to meditate on the river banks, and right before doing so he asks his attendant to fetch him water. Before the attendant returns, the yogi falls into samadhi and years pass by, but then the river floods and the yogi wakes up from his meditation neck deep in water, yet he instead calls for his attendant to fetch him water. Or something like that.

 

Have you reached samadhi? Why don't you go reach Permanent Samadhi first before teaching others that Samadhi isn't important.

[tulku]

What? And you apparently know what all these teachers taught? If you and neither michael know, why don't you cut the crap on "most people blah blah" and a generally condescending attitude you've been displaying here and study a bit more with an open mind?

 

You've drawn an unnecessary line here between "you" and "everyone else who are not good enough compared to me." Why does this division even arise in your mind in the first place? It's just a very unnecessary thought that probably reveals more about yourself than samadhi, void, or whatever esoteric stuff.

 

I know more than most people in here about the importance of Samadhi.

 

As I said before, I am still an "incomplete human" compared to the masters who achieved Samadhi.

 

What makes me different from others is not that I am better than them.

 

What makes me different is that I acknowledge that I am an "incomplete sub-human" because I have not reached Samadhi permanently.

 

However, there are too many people who are too ignorant to realize that they are "incomplete" and stubbornly refuse to change their ways because of their ego.

 

One can only change when one realizes one is in the wrong and lacking.

 

However, too many refuse to acknowledge that they are "incomplete sub-humans", too many refuse to acknowledge they are wrong and lacking because the pride of their human ego refuse to do so.

Edited August 25, 2011 by tulku

[tulku]

i agree it is good for one to look and see for themself. in my observations(and you can observe alot sometimes just by looking) the only folks i have ever met who were afraid of death were the ones who were not satisfied

with their life.

 

Those who are afraid of death are those who fail to see through the illusion of life.

 

Those who aren't afraid of death are those who see through the illusion of life.

 

Nothing to do with satisfaction or non-satisfaction.

 

Someone like Bill Gates would be afraid of death. It is those who are satisfied with life who would be afraid of death.

 

Those who are not satisfied with life would be looking for something much greater than life itself which fortunately can only be achieved through various manners of "Death".

 

Death of the ego. Death of illusionary life.

[tulku]

Interesting note, Zero!

 

Could you give an example or two of how one can derive satisfaction from life?

 

It could be that the more satisfied one is, the greater the fear of death? After all, many people stuff their lives with all sorts of material things, and spiritual things as well, with the intention of satiating something which they felt was missing, and create cycles of acquisitions, from the grosser physical things to the subtler mental and spiritual things... Some want to live forever, and achieve immortality, you know what i mean? Imagine the impact of finally knowing, at death's door, that one has fallen way short of that? What to do then?

 

As long as one has done the neccessary Work in this lifetime, one need not fear death.

 

The very fear of death is itself a shortcoming.

 

One should embrace death because death is a homecoming, a release from prison, so what is there to fear from death?

 

A glided cage is still a cage and people like Bill Gates and Obama are just as much prisoners as we normal people are.

[suninmyeyes]

Those who are afraid of death are those who fail to see through the illusion of life.

 

Those who aren't afraid of death are those who see through the illusion of life.

 

Nothing to do with satisfaction or non-satisfaction.

 

Someone like Bill Gates would be afraid of death. It is those who are satisfied with life who would be afraid of death.

 

Those who are not satisfied with life would be looking for something much greater than life itself which fortunately can only be achieved through various manners of "Death".

 

Death of the ego. Death of illusionary life.

tulku,

When I read your posts you sound so dramatic. I just imagined you on the stage doing Machbeth or someting.Actually maybe more like a Jesus Christ Superstar.

Anyway void can be scary, it is true. I certanly got scared, especially at one point. Very scary. I am no longer there, melting away.. this stuff is not easily crossed, no matter how heroic one is. This is not just a piece of cake.

Slowly,slowly walk in honesty at least to yourself.

[Non]

Well. I dont know how I can fear something such as non-existence when, if I am non-existent that means I don't fear anything because I don't exist!

 

So I think we just fear the momentary physical pain that might accompany a less than peaceful death.

[thelerner]

the truths which I possess do not come from myself but from established teachers of past and present history..

 

if i am wrong, then all the teachers whom i got the truths from are wrong as well..

 

do you profess to know the truth? do you profess to know more about the truth than the teachers who gave the truth to me?

 

i may not know everything michael but at least i know more than you..

 

that one thing i am sure of..

Thats the problem, your 'sure of..'. Your writing reveals someone who hasn't done indepth study or practice. Do you realize if you gave your 'Taoism and Buddhism are the same' speech to an expert in either they'd regard you as an unstudied idiot? In the same league as a Easterner who went up to a priest and said Judiasm, Islam and Christianity are one?

 

I wrote "I suspect you know very little about the people in the video. Have you studied them, know there names, traditions? I think you project your ideals onto them. The truth may be quite different.

 

I suspect you don't have a live teacher, a real teacher would challenge some of your assumptions."

 

 

Let me repeat it, DO you know anything about the people you're praising in your 'proof' youtube? Have you done any real research into who they are, there traditions, even the lowest level like there names.

 

You're like a kid from rural China who comes to the U.S, says all Westerns religions are the same. You've decided to become a saint, you really want to walk on water. Then you'll cure a few people of aids, maybe resurrect some dead. You're here to lecture us on the highest meanings.

 

Thats what you sound like.

[Cueball]

Anyway void can be scary, it is true. I certanly got scared, especially at one point. Very scary. I am no longer there, melting away.. this stuff is not easily crossed, no matter how heroic one is. This is not just a piece of cake.

Slowly,slowly walk in honesty at least to yourself.

 

Just wanted to say I think this is really good (it's my experience too). It's funny to think heroics and self chastisement are what you need, for this kind of thing.

 

Is the void different from the fullness? It can be just as scary to come into fullness, or more so, depending on individual circumstances.

 

Just an idea.

 

P.S. Mmmm.... piece of cake........

[suninmyeyes]

Just wanted to say I think this is really good (it's my experience too). It's funny to think heroics and self chastisement are what you need, for this kind of thing.

 

Is the void different from the fullness? It can be just as scary to come into fullness, or more so, depending on individual circumstances.

 

Just an idea.

 

P.S. Mmmm.... piece of cake........

Hope you like chocolate cake.This is the only piece of cake I have got stored and you can have it.

 

When I think of void it is a vacuus 'space',but full of potential.Dont know if this explains it well.

[tulku]

Thats the problem, your 'sure of..'. Your writing reveals someone who hasn't done indepth study or practice. Do you realize if you gave your 'Taoism and Buddhism are the same' speech to an expert in either they'd regard you as an unstudied idiot? In the same league as a Easterner who went up to a priest and said Judiasm, Islam and Christianity are one?

 

I wrote "I suspect you know very little about the people in the video. Have you studied them, know there names, traditions? I think you project your ideals onto them. The truth may be quite different.

 

I suspect you don't have a live teacher, a real teacher would challenge some of your assumptions."

 

 

Let me repeat it, DO you know anything about the people you're praising in your 'proof' youtube? Have you done any real research into who they are, there traditions, even the lowest level like there names.

 

You're like a kid from rural China who comes to the U.S, says all Westerns religions are the same. You've decided to become a saint, you really want to walk on water. Then you'll cure a few people of aids, maybe resurrect some dead. You're here to lecture us on the highest meanings.

 

Thats what you sound like.

 

what they teach is the same thing being taught in taoism, Hinduism, gnostic, bla bla bla..

 

just because you can't see it doesn't mean that it isn't there

 

as i said before, those people have reached permanent samadhi status..

 

you don't.. you are like one of those new age people who refuse to put in the work and pretend the whole world is so perfect.. you make me laugh, mate

Edited August 25, 2011 by tulku

[tulku]

[Sunya]

You would be the first buddhist practitioner i know who doesn't achieve liberation through samadhi.

 

No Buddhist practitioner achieves liberation through samadhi because samadhi is not a culminating method in Buddhism. Concentration is only a stepping ladder until insight or analytical meditation is used. Samadhi only leads one to the jhanas, and there is no liberation to be found through that method. The Buddha was a master of samadhi before he achieved enlightenment. Ultimately he rejected his teachers because he realized there is no liberation through samadhi.

 

The World is only an expression of the Void.

 

This isn't a Buddhist view, though you can hold it if you wish. Form and formless (Void) are both empty of substance and arise dependently on causes and conditions. There is no sourceless source or base for reality. Reality is actually groundless. The issue is that you are clinging to an experience of formless meditation and then assuming it's the source of everything.

 

Once you become the Void, you can create any World which you want.

 

Why don't you try that and find out of it's actually true? If it were true, then there would be no need for individual salvation because the countless Buddhas who achieved liberation before us could simply enlighten us. But since we are definitely suffering, the only logical conclusion is that one cannot influence the world as much as you think even as a Buddha.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Sunya

[tulku]

No Buddhist practitioner achieves liberation through samadhi because samadhi is not a culminating method in Buddhism. Concentration is only a stepping ladder until insight or analytical meditation is used. Samadhi only leads one to the jhanas, and there is no liberation to be found through that method. The Buddha was a master of samadhi before he achieved enlightenment. Ultimately he rejected his teachers because he realized there is no liberation through samadhi.

 

 

 

This isn't a Buddhist view, though you can hold it if you wish. Form and formless (Void) are both empty of substance and arise dependently on causes and conditions. There is no sourceless source or base for reality. Reality is actually groundless. The issue is that you are clinging to an experience of formless meditation and then assuming it's the source of everything.

 

 

 

Why don't you try that and find out of it's actually true? If it were true, then there would be no need for individual salvation because the countless Buddhas who achieved liberation before us could simply enlighten us. But since we are definitely suffering, the only logical conclusion is that one cannot influence the world as much as you think even as a Buddha.

 

Samadhi isn't the final step but it is the most important first step.

 

No one achieves enlightenment without first achieving samadhi.

 

That the World is an expression of the Void doesn't have to be a buddhist or taoist view. It simply is a fact.

 

Of course, you have not interacted with the Void yet, cos you are still sticking to dogma without even understanding what the Void truly is.

 

The only reason why you are suffering is because you are controlled by your desires and thus lack the Will to create the world which you envision.

 

As I said before, the fact that you can't create your own world doesn't mean this ability doesn't exist. It simply means you lack this ability.

[Sunya]

Samadhi isn't the final step but it is the most important first step.

 

No one achieves enlightenment without first achieving samadhi.

 

Concentration is important. I agree.

 

That the World is an expression of the Void doesn't have to be a buddhist or taoist view. It simply is a fact.

 

Well, it's not a fact according to the realization of Buddhist masters. It's an opinion, sure, and maybe your opinion will change one day.

 

Of course, you have not interacted with the Void yet, cos you are still sticking to dogma without even understanding what the Void truly is.

 

Interesting how you seem to know what I have or have not experienced. Buddhist view isn't 'dogma.' It's the beginning and the end. Without view, people form their own wrong conclusions about their meditative experiences.

 

The only reason why you are suffering is because you are controlled by your desires and thus lack the Will to create the world which you envision.

 

We are both suffering. It's clear from your posts that you still suffer from emotions like pride and anger. No use in hiding it, and there's nothing wrong with it either since you're not enlightened. But why pretend to be free from suffering when you're not?

 

As I said before, the fact that you can't create your own world doesn't mean this ability doesn't exist. It simply means you lack this ability.

 

I'm guessing you have such ability if you make such a statement. Please create a world where I agree with you about the Void. Or at the very least help me pee for I am much too lazy to get up at the moment.

[TzuJanLi]

Interesting note, Zero!

 

Could you give an example or two of how one can derive satisfaction from life?

 

One can 'look', without believing what they think they see should be seen by everyone else.. then, one can continue looking, and there is satisfaction in this..

 

One can 'look', without expectations.. then, what is seen is authentic and direct, and there is satisfaction in this.. even if what is seen is undesirable, but it is authentic and pure, i derive satisfaction from experiencing the essence of 'looking'.. and, that is 'seeing'..

 

One can 'look' with unconditional curiosity, never accepting descriptions as substitutes for what can be directly verified by one's own 'seeing', and never being satisfied that what is seen is all that can be seen.. i derive great satisfaction when i am unconditionally curious, when i see the same door, to the same room, as if i had not seen it 5000 times before, and i am unconditionally curious about what is on the other side..

 

One can 'look', with a 'still mind', suspending that mind's inclinations to inform 'that' which is looking what that mind 'thinks' it should see.. i derive great satisfaction from seeing what 'is'..

 

When asked, one can report what one has seen with sincere honesty.. i derive great satisfaction from sincere honesty, when it flows from me, and when it is received..

 

I hope i have been helpful.. Be well..

[Seth Ananda]

One can 'look', without believing what they think they see should be seen by everyone else.. then, one can continue looking, and there is satisfaction in this..

 

One can 'look', without expectations.. then, what is seen is authentic and direct, and there is satisfaction in this.. even if what is seen is undesirable, but it is authentic and pure, i derive satisfaction from experiencing the essence of 'looking'.. and, that is 'seeing'..

 

One can 'look' with unconditional curiosity, never accepting descriptions as substitutes for what can be directly verified by one's own 'seeing', and never being satisfied that what is seen is all that can be seen.. i derive great satisfaction when i am unconditionally curious, when i see the same door, to the same room, as if i had not seen it 5000 times before, and i am unconditionally curious about what is on the other side..

 

One can 'look', with a 'still mind', suspending that mind's inclinations to inform 'that' which is looking what that mind 'thinks' it should see.. i derive great satisfaction from seeing what 'is'..

 

When asked, one can report what one has seen with sincere honesty.. i derive great satisfaction from sincere honesty, when it flows from me, and when it is received..

 

I hope i have been helpful.. Be well..

That sounds very close to Dzogchen in some ways...