Most people are afraid of Void as Void = Death and Loss

[thelerner]

what they teach is the same thing being taught in taoism, Hinduism, gnostic, bla bla bla..

 

just because you can't see it doesn't mean that it isn't there

 

as i said before, those people have reached permanent samadhi status..

 

you don't.. you are like one of those new age people who refuse to put in the work and pretend the whole world is so perfect.. you make me laugh, mate

 

Just say it, you don't know who the people in the video are, you don't know there names, there beliefs or what they practice. You found a video and you're projecting your ideas onto it.

 

You refuse to do the work to learn about the people in the video, there tradition, and practices. Its easier to lump them together and remain in ignorance even though they are your ideal.

 

The world isn't perfect buddy, you need to learn, research, otherwise you'll live in self made illusions.

 

I take it you don't have any roll models (ie samadhi's) nearby. So if the Youtube has your roll models in it LEARN who they are, and what they do. Don't Assume, its all the same. Odds are they have practices and beliefs that will be new to you.

 

Learn, learn don't assume.

 

I assume you don't you don't know because I've asked you 3 times and you never answer.

[tulku]

Just say it, you don't know who the people in the video are, you don't know there names, there beliefs or what they practice. You found a video and you're projecting your ideas onto it.

 

You refuse to do the work to learn about the people in the video, there tradition, and practices. Its easier to lump them together and remain in ignorance even though they are your ideal.

 

The world isn't perfect buddy, you need to learn, research, otherwise you'll live in self made illusions.

 

I take it you don't have any roll models (ie samadhi's) nearby. So if the Youtube has your roll models in it LEARN who they are, and what they do. Don't Assume, its all the same. Odds are they have practices and beliefs that will be new to you.

 

Learn, learn don't assume.

 

I assume you don't you don't know because I've asked you 3 times and you never answer.

 

i already said they are practicing samadhi, and how do you know how much work i have put into achieving samadhi?

 

how do you know i am not already learning from different masters?

 

are you a remote viewer? you hardly achieved permanent samadhi, matey and you wanna lecture me?

 

there are a number of people in this forum whom i would take their advice but you are certainly not one of them..

 

as i said, don't me laugh..

[Aaron]

In all Spiritual Traditions, one is taught to kill the human ego in order to reach the Void and attain enlightenment.

 

The Void or Pure Consciousness is the state of the universe before one is born, before the planets and the universe is created, before the stars are created.

 

When a biological life die, its soul or essence will break down into subatomic elements before disappearing into the Void.

 

Most biological life have to die before becoming one with the void.

 

It is only humans who have the ability to become one with the void while remaining alive.

 

However, the human ego or animal ego is afraid of being killed so it unceasingly force all of us to indulge in our senses through sex, good food and fun.

 

This is why most of us find it impossible to let go of the mara of sex, good food and fun. It is because our human ego refuse to let us do so.

 

When one indulge in one's senses, one's mind is prevented from going still and becoming one with the void.

 

How would you kill your human ego?

 

Hello Tulku,

 

You cannot kill your ego. You do not know the you that existed before you were you or you would realize this. I believe your fixation with death comes from an uncertainty about your own life. Do not seek purpose in life, there is no purpose in life other than to survive. When you awaken to this, you will feel quite free, but then you will begin to live your life as you lived before. You will wash your dishes, take out your trash, mow your lawn, and wave to the neighbors as they pass by, you will only be doing this knowing that there is more to the trash and dishes and lawn, and even your neighbors, than you knew before.

 

Kill your ego and you will find peace, but you will no longer be you. You do not kill your ego, you transcend your ego, you see what you were before you were you. You are caught in the notion that you are bad, but you are neither good nor bad, your desires are neither good nor bad, you are simply you. Start being you and stop worrying about whether you are worrying and you cease to worry.

 

I have tried to tell you this, but it will mean nothing so long as you believe what you believe. Stop believing and start being and you will see that the greatest thing one can do for another is to understand your relationship to everything and in understanding this relationship, allow compassion to blossom. Once it has blossomed it will never whither, but rather bloom with a consistent light that will shine through all the darkness.

 

Remember that in the darkness, it is best to seek whatever light you can find, but the only reason that you fear the darkness is because you are dependent on your sight. Listen, smell, taste and feel the world around you and you will begin to appreciate the world again, then you can find comfort even in the darkest of rooms.

 

Aaron

Edited August 27, 2011 by Twinner

[Cueball]

Hope you like chocolate cake.This is the only piece of cake I have got stored and you can have it.

 

When I think of void it is a vacuus 'space',but full of potential.Dont know if this explains it well.

 

 

Thanks - I gladly accept both the cake and the funky tune.

 

Full of potential, yes. I like the 'full'. Only fairly recently have I felt that void is not about death and loss, but about life and gain. Which can be scary too, because it is more than normal life and gain. I do wonder if, in many circumstances, it's harder to face the gain that comes when you are invested in loss.

 

I don't know, I think there are always voids to cross.

 

Interesting topic though!

[tulku]

Hello Tulku,

 

You cannot kill your ego. You do not know the you that existed before you were you or you would realize this. I believe your fixation with death comes from an uncertainty about your own life. Do not seek purpose in life, there is no purpose in life other than to survive. When you awaken to this, you will feel quite free, but then you will begin to live your life as you lived before. You will wash your dishes, take out your trash, mow your lawn, and wave to the neighbors as they pass by, you will only be doing this knowing that there is more to the trash and dishes and lawn, and even your neighbors, than you knew before.

 

Kill your ego and you will find peace, but you will no longer be you. You do not kill your ego, you transcend your ego, you see what you were before you were you. You are caught in the notion that you are bad, but you are neither good nor bad, your desires are neither good nor bad, you are simply you. Start being you and stop worrying about whether you are worrying and you cease to worry.

 

I have tried to tell you this, but it will mean nothing so long as you believe what you believe. Stop believing and start being and you will see that the greatest thing one can do for another is to understand your relationship to everything and in understanding this relationship, allow compassion to blossom. Once it has blossomed it will never whither, but rather bloom with a consistent light that will shine through all the darkness.

 

Remember that in the darkness, it is best to seek whatever light you can find, but the only reason that you fear the darkness is because you are dependent on your sight. Listen, smell, taste and feel the world around you and you will begin to appreciate the world again, then you can find comfort even in the darkest of rooms.

 

Aaron

 

Have you gained enlightenment yet? If not, you are in no position to lecture others on how to gain enlightenment.

 

I cannot kill my ego? I am slowly but surely snuffing the life out of my ego every day, every minute, every moment, every breadth every thought.

 

As you said,"Kill your ego and you will find peace, but you will no longer be you."

When I kill my ego, my true Higher Self and Divine Ego will appear.

 

I have never wished to be the old "me" anyway. In fact, I detest the human ego part of me who is so full of desires and other mental and emotional junk.

 

I prefer to have a perpetually permanent clear mind all the time, thank you very much.

 

I can't kill the ego? So many hindu, buddhist and taoist monks have kill their ego and you think i can't kill my ego?

 

LOL. When I finally kill my ego for good, you will know who I am.

 

He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in experiencing the mental formation'; he trains thus: 'I shall breathe out experiencing the mental formation'; He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in tranquilizing the mental formation.' He trains thus: 'I shall breathe out tranquilizing the mental formation.'

 

As one continues calming, expanding and relaxing the mind, it naturally begins to go deeper. Finally the feeling of pleasure in the body/mind becomes too coarse and the mind experiences exceptional equanimity and balance of mind. It is described thus in the suttas:

 

Here with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief a Bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhana (meditation stage), which has neither pain or pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.

 

When the mind becomes very calm and still, one experiences deep tranquility and equanimity of mind. They can still hear sounds and feel sensations with the body, but these things do not shake or move mind at all. Another description of this stage of meditation (jhana) is:

 

"My composed mind was purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady and attained to imperturbability."

 

This gives the serious meditator an idea of what to expect when one attains this stage. The mind is exceptionally clear, bright and alert. The mind can even see when a distraction begins to arise, then let it go and open up, expand and calm down again before coming back to the breath. The abandoning of pain and pleasure does not mean that occasionally pain or pleasure won't arise. They will arise, but the mind is in such a state of balance that it won't shake or become involved with the distractions. At that time the mind is very aware when pain or pleasure arises but the equanimity and mindfulness is so strong that it does not become concerned with it.

Edited September 3, 2011 by tulku

[Aetherous]

When I finally kill my ego for good, you will know who I am.

 

Wow, that is one of the most confused statements I have ever read in my life.

[~riverflow]

Tulku,

 

I understand your great commitment to awakening, and its something I think everyone here shares with you, though their ways of approaching it may differ (and some ways may be more effective than others certainly). Its obviously of great concern to you, and its commendable-- most people would rather watch TV! But there are ways in which you might be making things much more difficult than need be, possibly even causing more harm than good.

 

All this talk about ego is barking up the wrong tree-- if we are talking Buddhism anyway.

 

The Buddha didn't talk about no-ego, he talked about no-self, which is a very different thing. The Buddha did not teach that "self" did not exist, but rather we are mistaken in thinking that we "possess" an independent and inherently existing self. The Buddha's concern with self was, at root, an ontological one.

 

This is the meaning of emptiness in Buddhism: all things are empty of self-- that is to say, nothing (you, me, clouds, rocks, cats, trees, you name it) exists independently. Instead, everything is contingent upon everything else. The idea of "self" in this sense is pure delusion. We cause unnecessary suffering and confusion when we cling to this delusion. Things exist, but just not in the way we think they do.

 

Any other understanding of emptiness or void as pure nothingness is the very nihilism that the Buddha sought to avoid-- as well as essentialism on the other extreme.

 

And the point is not to eliminate this "self" either, but rather to realise that you never had this independent "self" to begin with. To realise no-self doesn't just mean you see that *you* don't have a self, but nothing else does either. This is why if you don't understand all this Buddhist talk about "self" ontologically, it can be misunderstood as a kind of harsh asceticism-- the very thing that the Buddha disavowed. This is the whole basis for compassion in Buddhism, and why it is so very central to the Buddhadharma.

 

A sort of superhuman puritanical effort to crush one's ego is only another dualistic division and can only further suffering. This is not self-inquiry that leads to awakening, but nihilism which leads only to further despair.

 

peace,

~josh

[Mattimo]

I don't think you can kill the ego, you can see the unnecessary suffering and stress it causes you to believe in it too tightly though and then decide to relax your grasping at it. Maybe you mean the same thing but killing implies violence and any sort of violence is counterproductive.

 

I share the same opinion. You know, I often think about the spiritual ramifications of the study of language. Language is an expression of one's perspective on life and the reality of being alive. I believe "kill" is the wrong word and/or approach to be used when discussing the ego. Seemingly, the notion of "killing" the ego is dramatic and emotionally charged. Instead, what if one were to recognize the ego? What if one were to face and become aware of the ego? What if one were to perceive the ego as an aspect of one's self?

 

Consider this, what if thinking about the so-called ego in terms of "killing" or "conquering" is actually a form/manifestation of externalized fear? What if it were the case that simply "seeing" the ego is magnitudes more frightening, despite being superficially passive and meek?

 

-Matt

[tulku]

Tulku,

 

I understand your great commitment to awakening, and its something I think everyone here shares with you, though their ways of approaching it may differ (and some ways may be more effective than others certainly). Its obviously of great concern to you, and its commendable-- most people would rather watch TV! But there are ways in which you might be making things much more difficult than need be, possibly even causing more harm than good.

 

All this talk about ego is barking up the wrong tree-- if we are talking Buddhism anyway.

 

The Buddha didn't talk about no-ego, he talked about no-self, which is a very different thing. The Buddha did not teach that "self" did not exist, but rather we are mistaken in thinking that we "possess" an independent and inherently existing self. The Buddha's concern with self was, at root, an ontological one.

 

This is the meaning of emptiness in Buddhism: all things are empty of self-- that is to say, nothing (you, me, clouds, rocks, cats, trees, you name it) exists independently. Instead, everything is contingent upon everything else. The idea of "self" in this sense is pure delusion. We cause unnecessary suffering and confusion when we cling to this delusion. Things exist, but just not in the way we think they do.

 

Any other understanding of emptiness or void as pure nothingness is the very nihilism that the Buddha sought to avoid-- as well as essentialism on the other extreme.

 

And the point is not to eliminate this "self" either, but rather to realise that you never had this independent "self" to begin with. To realise no-self doesn't just mean you see that *you* don't have a self, but nothing else does either. This is why if you don't understand all this Buddhist talk about "self" ontologically, it can be misunderstood as a kind of harsh asceticism-- the very thing that the Buddha disavowed. This is the whole basis for compassion in Buddhism, and why it is so very central to the Buddhadharma.

 

A sort of superhuman puritanical effort to crush one's ego is only another dualistic division and can only further suffering. This is not self-inquiry that leads to awakening, but nihilism which leads only to further despair.

 

peace,

~josh

 

Despair and Nihilism are only illusionary concepts borned out of the Human Ego mind.

 

Man has 2 Egos the Human Ego and the Divine Ego.

 

Only those that crush the Human Ego ruthlessly like how you would crush a cockroach would be able to awaken their Divine Godly Ego.

 

Plenty of monks and masters of various spiritual traditions have already walked before me on the path of killing the Human Ego.

 

They achieved not nihilism but true enlightenment because it is only when the Human Ego is utterly obliterated then can the Divine Ego take over the body.

[~riverflow]

Only those that crush the Human Ego ruthlessly like how you would crush a cockroach would be able to awaken their Divine Godly Ego.

 

Plenty of monks and masters of various spiritual traditions have already walked before me on the path of killing the Human Ego.

 

They achieved not nihilism but true enlightenment because it is only when the Human Ego is utterly obliterated then can the Divine Ego take over the body.

 

This is just more dualism. It is more desiring this vs. that. It is more chasing and chasing and chasing. Instead of desiring a new TV or sex, you are desiring a concept rooted in the same dualism you are seeking to escape. The "object" you seek merely has a different name, but the ontological relationship is exactly the same. This is, ironically, selfish, and wholly lacking in compassion.

 

Whatever this is you are talking about, it isn't the Buddhadharma, nor anything espoused by any Daoist sage. The Buddha tried all manner of ascetic approaches to the extreme and came to the conclusion it was a waste of time. Discipline, yes. But not puritanical repression, which only makes matters worse. You can't crush anything.

 

I know you won't listen because you are too emotionally caught up in this Manichean-like delusion that is common to fundamentalism. But hopefully one day you'll finally let go of this very thing that's eating at you.

 

I wish you nothing but peace, Tulku.

 

~josh

[tulku]

This is just more dualism. It is more desiring this vs. that. It is more chasing and chasing and chasing. Instead of desiring a new TV or sex, you are desiring a concept rooted in the same dualism you are seeking to escape. The "object" you seek merely has a different name, but the ontological relationship is exactly the same. This is, ironically, selfish, and wholly lacking in compassion.

 

Whatever this is you are talking about, it isn't the Buddhadharma, nor anything espoused by any Daoist sage. The Buddha tried all manner of ascetic approaches to the extreme and came to the conclusion it was a waste of time. Discipline, yes. But not puritanical repression, which only makes matters worse. You can't crush anything.

 

I know you won't listen because you are too emotionally caught up in this Manichean-like delusion that is common to fundamentalism. But hopefully one day you'll finally let go of this very thing that's eating at you.

 

I wish you nothing but peace, Tulku.

 

~josh

 

As I recalled correctly, the Buddha didn't go back to being a prince or re-engage himself in a life of marriage and sex after enlightenment.

 

This is because he knew that the enlightenment he had worked so hard for is far more precious than petty women, petty children and petty wealth.

[Everything]

I agree with mostly all of tulku's words...

I find it odd how everyone disagrees with tulku. He speaks such wise words. Ofcourse he has an ego, we all do. We can only let go when our body is in a tranquil or dead state.

 

When you replace "kill ego" with "let go ego" it may sound more realistic, because a return to ego is always possible. That is what the first scary experience of letting go teaches us. You cannot let go of ego whenever you want, because it will not feel safe during waking hours for example. In dreams its very easy, because you can't die. That is why becoming lucid is only done easy during dreaming or sleeping. Desires are lucidity killers. If one needs to train resistance against desires, just try to increase the length of your lucid dream. As soon as you desire you are carried away by this soothing feeling and you suddenly fall for the illusions, waking up to a stupid dream that could have been much more. Try to have sex in a lucid dream, it cannot be done unless you can have sex with a desireless mind. You have to train for this, it can be done.

 

Tulku is very radical about this I think. We can have sex, but we can also learn to stay lucid, or desireless during sex. This does not mean that your dick becomes small. If it shrinks it means you are afraid of something. Simply let go, be lucid, and continue to fuck. This will keep you aware of all the fakeness even the fakeness of the great sensations of fucking. Desireless is awareness of sensations, yet not carried away by them. It means that you cannot be tricked by the devil because you're alert, like a cat. Use part of the awareness to detach, let go of the ego and observe it from a higher perspective. Yet allow your ego to carry on without you. You may even feed its desires so that it doesn't bother you as yoi float away. Trick your own mind, the Tao Te Ching is all about knowledge that leads nowhere, brcause it is a text with a purpose of tricking the mind or ego so that you cam reach higher states of consciousness.

 

What tulku says is simply true... This world has patterns, therefor it is fake. Reality does not have patterns but people forgot that. It is hard to accept that this is an illusion, but it is. Especially whem someone else is speaking of it or you are thinking about it. Accepting this world to be fake is something you have to DO. Just try it right now, see if you can succeed. If you do not even feel a little fear, you did something wrong. Letting go of reality feels like dieing, just as initiating a lucid dream feels like dieing, because you have to accept that everything is fake. Everything in your life. Everything is relative, it depends on eachother. That is the whole proof of the illusion we live in. Accepting this increases your alertness, awareness, consciousness. The secret to me lies withing the fact that it doesn't matter how you view life, it matters how much of it you view. Firstly, because an electron that is being observed changes behaviour then when it is not observed. It becomes constant, predictable. Secondly, it doesn't matter how much you change your ego, in the end you will never get further then just the ego. You cannot solve a problem with the same level of consciousness that created it.

 

So I completely agree with Tulku, I just disagree that letting go of ego requires fearlessness. Fearlessness is the reward for letting go of ego. The requirement is courage.

 

I was going to create a topic about the fear of letting go ego, guess there is one right here.

 

Thanks Tulku. I enjoy it when people use their ego to proof that it is fake. It is hilarious to see everyones ego defenses all up and running. So much fear in the air here, wheres all the courage? Sure during forum time is not a good time to accept fakeness, but you should atleast try damnit!

[Marblehead]

I agree with mostly all of tulku's words...

 

Well, it's nice that someone does.

[Everything]

Well, it's nice that someone does.

When someone says everything is fake, your ego defenses will go up. Mature ego defenses, you make a joke about it. Immature ego defenses, you want to slap him in the face. They're all ego defenses. Perhaps you have an uncomfortable laugh as you slowly get ready to run away from this lunatic.

 

Lets say that you slap him in the face, now he wont say that everything is fake anymore right? Because it hurts...

 

Could you agree with me till this point?

 

Allow me to make up this imaginary situation...

Lunatic: "everything is fake, everything is fake!"

Mr. M: *slap* "wake up you idiot!"

Lunatic: "..." *cries out loud* "that hurt!"

Mr. M: "Is everything fake?"

Lunatic: "No... Pain is real!"

 

What happened there? Is this proof that everything is real or is it another trick of the ego?

 

When you slap someone, he shall feel a sensation of pain. This pain is relative. Some people can learn not to get distracted by it too much and remain focused during the pain and the moments after it. When you receive a slap, you fear that you shall receive it again. Fear is an ego defense, to protect you from harm. Thus with an ego arised, you have attached to reality again. The pain becomes real, you fear it. What Mr. M has called a waking up is in fact going to sleep. When we really wake up we become very sensitive in a focused manner, not weak distractable way. No one is perfect, so slap a person enough and he will break focus, get distracted by the pain and loose connection with the void. He will have fallen asleep. How paradoxical that everyone perceives it as an awakening.

 

Everything is relative, even reality. To someone with an ego, everything is real. To someone with an flexible ego, this mind changes along the way from time to time, which is more in tune with the manifested nature of constant change. The flexible ego/mind/self is more aware and perceives more of the universe.

To someone with no ego, everything is fake, all the time... This mind is so aware and sensitive that he perceives the secrets of this universe. All the great scientific minds accepted that everything is fake, and they had the courage to constantly live in the unknown. It is easy to say that you have an opinion about everything, because you are perceived more dominant this way. The real courage is required when you can admit that you do not know, that you do not understand, that you have no opinion, that you do not know who you are. This vulnerable position you would put yourself in requires courage to maintain. To always live in the unknown. It makes you alert, sensitive, aware... You will learn so much more when you never attach to any single form of truth. Rather attach to the only real truth out there, the constant change, the fact that no moment stay the same. Te fact that every moment of your life is fake and always have been.

Edited September 4, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Hi Everything,

 

Good response. Of course, I don't buy all of it but that doesn't matter.

 

This: "Everything is relative, even reality. To someone with an ego, everything is real."

 

Yep. Even Everything is relative. Hehehe.

 

But remember, I am a Taoist, not a Buddhist. True, everything that is not real is real and everything that is real is not real depending on our individual perspective.

 

There's the trick. We believe what gives us comfort - security. Yes, this applies to Buddhists as well.

 

I don't have a problem with saying "I don't know." I have a problem with saying I don't know for those things that I do know. I have a problem with suggesting that I have no opinions of my own when in reality I have lots of opinions.

 

However, to say something like: I am not going to sit in that chair because I'm not sure if it is real or not is kind of silly in my mind.

 

The Manifest is just as real as is the Mystery. To place one above above the other as to the 'realness' of their reality is to miss reality because we are looking at only one piece of the entire puzzle.

 

We need to back off and look at the entire picture if we wish to understand the totality.

 

No, the reality test is not a trick. It allows us to recognize both the Mystery (void) and the Manifest. Just as with Yin and Yang, you cannot have one without the other. That is what brings balance and harmony into our life.

 

But don't worry because each and every one of us are going to return to Mystery (the void) so even if we are a total materialistic person during this physical existence we will return to the void. No reason to rush it, in my opinion.

[Everything]

Hi Everything,

 

Good response. Of course, I don't buy all of it but that doesn't matter.

 

This: "Everything is relative, even reality. To someone with an ego, everything is real."

 

Yep. Even Everything is relative. Hehehe.

 

But remember, I am a Taoist, not a Buddhist. True, everything that is not real is real and everything that is real is not real depending on our individual perspective.

 

There's the trick. We believe what gives us comfort - security. Yes, this applies to Buddhists as well.

 

I don't have a problem with saying "I don't know." I have a problem with saying I don't know for those things that I do know. I have a problem with suggesting that I have no opinions of my own when in reality I have lots of opinions.

 

However, to say something like: I am not going to sit in that chair because I'm not sure if it is real or not is kind of silly in my mind.

 

The Manifest is just as real as is the Mystery. To place one above above the other as to the 'realness' of their reality is to miss reality because we are looking at only one piece of the entire puzzle.

 

We need to back off and look at the entire picture if we wish to understand the totality.

 

No, the reality test is not a trick. It allows us to recognize both the Mystery (void) and the Manifest. Just as with Yin and Yang, you cannot have one without the other. That is what brings balance and harmony into our life.

 

But don't worry because each and every one of us are going to return to Mystery (the void) so even if we are a total materialistic person during this physical existence we will return to the void. No reason to rush it, in my opinion.

The fact that you know you have opinions is the recognition of your ego. Observing it is already the first step of letting go. When you say "thinking the chair is fake is silly" simply means the uncomfortable feeling of anxiety that comes with letting go of ego. When you know the chair to be fake, you emmediatly think that you shall not sit upon it anymore, but thats not true... The fear is only the initiation... It will not last forever, that is my point. People who live in the unknown have done so much courage that sitting on an unknown object is simply a laugh to them. They are more aware of the chair then a regular person thats for sure.

 

When I remove a feet from the chair, you sit on and the chair breaks. Will you still trust that te chair is real next time? Can you see now how the patterns have made you fall for this illusion of the constant chair that is non-existant?

Edited September 4, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

The fact that you know you have opinions is the recognition of your ego. Observing it is already the first step of letting go. When you say "thinking the chair is fake is silly" simply means the uncomfortable feeling of anxiety that comes with letting go of ego. When you know the chair to be fake, you emmediatly think that you shall not sit upon it anymore, but thats not true... The fear is only the initiation... It will not last forever, that is my point. People who live in the unknown have done so much courage that sitting on an unknown object is simply a laugh to them. They are more aware of the chair then a regular person thats for sure.

 

When I remove a feet from the chair, you sit on and the chair breaks. Will you still trust that te chair is real next time? Can you see now how the patterns have made you fall for this illusion of the constant chair that is non-existant?

 

No, no, No, NO, NO!!!!!

 

Ego has nothing to do with this. Ego has nothing to do with opinions. Perception, using our five senses has everything to do with it. If you detect something without using the senses then you are imagining it.

 

It is my opinion that if you jump into my fish pond you are going to get wet. Now, maybe you can walk on water and will not get wet. I have never seen anyone walk on water so I would generally never consider this possibility. And here, I could put myself on the line and even say that it is my understanding that you are going to get wet. And if I were pushed for more description I would even suggest that it is a fact that if you jumped into my fish pond (while there are fish in it along with the water to support their life) you are going to get wet.

 

If you were to offer me a chair that you knowingly made unsupportive and knowingly offered it to me just to show me that I shouldn't rely on my observations would be the cause of you losing a friend. (And maybe the experiencing of pain.) But I will still continue to trust chairs but I will no longer trust you. Cause and effect, you know.

 

No, I will not start believing that every chair I see does not exist. I will continue to trust my senses and sit down in a chair whenever I wish to do so. If it breaks then I will say, "Bad chair."

[Aaron]

No, no, No, NO, NO!!!!!

 

Ego has nothing to do with this. Ego has nothing to do with opinions. Perception, using our five senses has everything to do with it. If you detect something without using the senses then you are imagining it.

 

It is my opinion that if you jump into my fish pond you are going to get wet. Now, maybe you can walk on water and will not get wet. I have never seen anyone walk on water so I would generally never consider this possibility. And here, I could put myself on the line and even say that it is my understanding that you are going to get wet. And if I were pushed for more description I would even suggest that it is a fact that if you jumped into my fish pond (while there are fish in it along with the water to support their life) you are going to get wet.

 

If you were to offer me a chair that you knowingly made unsupportive and knowingly offered it to me just to show me that I shouldn't rely on my observations would be the cause of you losing a friend. (And maybe the experiencing of pain.) But I will still continue to trust chairs but I will no longer trust you. Cause and effect, you know.

 

No, I will not start believing that every chair I see does not exist. I will continue to trust my senses and sit down in a chair whenever I wish to do so. If it breaks then I will say, "Bad chair."

 

I'm typing on my iPod, so forgive the typos. A couple things, first the chair is not bad, only broken. Second, the ego, as I am led to believe by most buddhists, derives from the experiences of the senses, hence if one sees the world as unreal them it makes sense that th mechanism we use to experience it would be unreal as well.

 

My opinion? I'm glad you asked. Everything is impermanent. This should not be confused with real or unreal. When one says this is all an illusion, they need to remember that is only how they choose to view it, or perhaps define their own experiences. In the end until you prove this, you will only be talking out your ass.

 

I have yet to see anyone do this, but if they do, I will be the first to jump on the bandwagon.

 

Aaron

[Everything]

No, no, No, NO, NO!!!!!

 

Ego has nothing to do with this. Ego has nothing to do with opinions. Perception, using our five senses has everything to do with it. If you detect something without using the senses then you are imagining it.

 

It is my opinion that if you jump into my fish pond you are going to get wet. Now, maybe you can walk on water and will not get wet. I have never seen anyone walk on water so I would generally never consider this possibility. And here, I could put myself on the line and even say that it is my understanding that you are going to get wet. And if I were pushed for more description I would even suggest that it is a fact that if you jumped into my fish pond (while there are fish in it along with the water to support their life) you are going to get wet.

 

If you were to offer me a chair that you knowingly made unsupportive and knowingly offered it to me just to show me that I shouldn't rely on my observations would be the cause of you losing a friend. (And maybe the experiencing of pain.) But I will still continue to trust chairs but I will no longer trust you. Cause and effect, you know.

 

No, I will not start believing that every chair I see does not exist. I will continue to trust my senses and sit down in a chair whenever I wish to do so. If it breaks then I will say, "Bad chair."

You believe what you see, yet you do not know that what you believe decides what you shall see. Accepting fakeness of the chair simply puts you into a vulnerable position, a difficult road. With these difficulties come a great reward. The ability to change perception/believes in an instant, for better or worse.

 

You sit on a fake chair, you make one backflip when it breaks, or perhaps he remains in the seated position as the chair crumbles underneath his but. Because you expect the unexpected, are more aware when you let go of ego. You are more vulnerable when you have no reality to stand upon. It is like the description of how a sage perceives things. The person with the ego fals down when the chair breaks and gets angry at the chair, as he is falling down he still is not letting go of the chair, he infacts try to grab it even stronger.

 

I'm still new with this letting go of ego thing. The practice came from lucid dreaming. You have to constantly see fakeness during waking hours so that you can see it during dreaming hours aswell. During a dream you run away from monsters all your life, when you turn lucid, yiu realize that the monster is fake and it becomes fake. You give it coffee and discuss his intentions over a cup of coffee. If you disagree with this fact, you have not yet had a lucid dream.

 

In reality, our perceptions are often fake and limiting. Every single moment of your life has fakeness in it. I've not discovered how it effects your life to see fakeness atleast 20 times a day. I need more experiences to see wether or not accepting fakeness is useful or not. I can not say for sure. I do know that it feels scary at first, that it requires courage. But the rewards have been confidence 100% of the time. It feels great, and it turns your life upside down. You do crazy things that makes your life beter. Your fakeness detector improves,l. Yeah, thats how I call it ^^

[Everything]

I'm typing on my iPod, so forgive the typos. A couple things, first the chair is not bad, only broken. Second, the ego, as I am led to believe by most buddhists, derives from the experiences of the senses, hence if one sees the world as unreal them it makes sense that th mechanism we use to experience it would be unreal as well.

 

My opinion? I'm glad you asked. Everything is impermanent. This should not be confused with real or unreal. When one says this is all an illusion, they need to remember that is only how they choose to view it, or perhaps define their own experiences. In the end until you prove this, you will only be talking out your ass.

 

I have yet to see anyone do this, but if they do, I will be the first to jump on the bandwagon.

 

Aaron

isn't all the patterns in this life, all its predictability, isn't all of that the proof of all fakeness? We can predict everything, change its destiny. We can alter reality.

 

Also, can you proof that this is all real? Why did you choose to believe that this is all real then, when you cannot proof it?

 

Have any of you guys ever had a lucid dream? I can talk about this for ever, but you will never understand what its like unless you have experienced it. This experiemce of letting go of the ego is beyond words.

Edited September 4, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

You believe what you see, yet you do not know that what you believe decides what you shall see. Accepting fakeness of the chair simply puts you into a vulnerable position, a difficult road. With these difficulties come a great reward. The ability to change perception/believes in an instant, for better or worse.

 

Oh, please don't misjudge me. I have not been in a vulnerable position for many, many years. And I don't expect to be in such a position in the foreseeable future.

 

And as well, I can change directions faster than the eye can see. Changing my opinions come a little slower, changing my understandings are even slower and changing my beliefs are even slower.

 

We won't have time to change my beliefs. All else is possible.

 

You sit on a fake chair, you make one backflip when it breaks, or perhaps he remains in the seated position as the chair crumbles underneath his but. Because you expect the unexpected, are more aware when you let go of ego. You are more vulnerable when you have no reality to stand upon. It is like the description of how a sage perceives things. The person with the ego fals down when the chair breaks and gets angry at the chair, as he is falling down he still is not letting go of the chair, he infacts try to grab it even stronger.

 

My ego does not reside in my butt - it's in my brain - it is a part of my self-realization. My butt is fat, my brain is not, hard maybe, but that's different - like muscles when you exercise them well and often.

 

No, I will not get angry at the chair, I will get angry at you for offering me a knowingly faulty chair.

 

And no, I would not grasp for the faulty chair but while falling I would grasp for some other object capable of supporting my weight, you neck, for example.

 

I'm still new with this letting go of ego thing. The practice came from lucid dreaming. You have to constantly see fakeness during waking hours so that you can see it during dreaming hours aswell. During a dream you run away from monsters all your life, when you turn lucid, yiu realize that the monster is fake and it becomes fake. You give it coffee and discuss his intentions over a cup of coffee. If you disagree with this fact, you have not yet had a lucid dream.

 

Hehehe. I used to have lucid dreams. They are extremely rare anymore. I have no monsters - they are all dead. But I can still imagine being a butterfly.

 

In reality, our perceptions are often fake and limiting. Every single moment of your life has fakeness in it. I've not discovered how it effects your life to see fakeness atleast 20 times a day. I need more experiences to see wether or not accepting fakeness is useful or not. I can not say for sure. I do know that it feels scary at first, that it requires courage. But the rewards have been confidence 100% of the time. It feels great, and it turns your life upside down. You do crazy things that makes your life beter. Your fakeness detector improves,l. Yeah, thats how I call it ^^

 

Okay, I pretty much have to agree with you here. You and I are walking different paths so it is understandable that we will not always agree. And we will not even 'see' things from the same perspective.

 

Yes, there is a lot of fakery in life. We need to prevent beind swept under the rug.

 

I have no idea what the purpose of your journey is. You do seem to have a good start.

 

Yes, it takes courage to question others. It takes more courage to find your own 'truths' by yourself instead of being a robot and following the commands of your programmer. Break the hard drive and operate off floppys until you can get a working hard drive that has had 'erase all data' applied to it.

 

Anyhow, my chair is still doing fine, thanks for asking. Hehehe.

[tulku]

Hi Everything,

 

Good response. Of course, I don't buy all of it but that doesn't matter.

 

This: "Everything is relative, even reality. To someone with an ego, everything is real."

 

Yep. Even Everything is relative. Hehehe.

 

But remember, I am a Taoist, not a Buddhist. True, everything that is not real is real and everything that is real is not real depending on our individual perspective.

 

There's the trick. We believe what gives us comfort - security. Yes, this applies to Buddhists as well.

 

I don't have a problem with saying "I don't know." I have a problem with saying I don't know for those things that I do know. I have a problem with suggesting that I have no opinions of my own when in reality I have lots of opinions.

 

However, to say something like: I am not going to sit in that chair because I'm not sure if it is real or not is kind of silly in my mind.

 

The Manifest is just as real as is the Mystery. To place one above above the other as to the 'realness' of their reality is to miss reality because we are looking at only one piece of the entire puzzle.

 

We need to back off and look at the entire picture if we wish to understand the totality.

 

No, the reality test is not a trick. It allows us to recognize both the Mystery (void) and the Manifest. Just as with Yin and Yang, you cannot have one without the other. That is what brings balance and harmony into our life.

 

But don't worry because each and every one of us are going to return to Mystery (the void) so even if we are a total materialistic person during this physical existence we will return to the void. No reason to rush it, in my opinion.

 

you are wrong, there is every reason to rush it..

 

see you are still thinking that the void = death and loss

 

how do you know the void doesn't also = unlimited blissful wisdom along other privileges as well?

[Everything]

Oh, please don't misjudge me. I have not been in a vulnerable position for many, many years. And I don't expect to be in such a position in the foreseeable future.

 

And as well, I can change directions faster than the eye can see. Changing my opinions come a little slower, changing my understandings are even slower and changing my beliefs are even slower.

 

We won't have time to change my beliefs. All else is possible.

 

 

 

My ego does not reside in my butt - it's in my brain - it is a part of my self-realization. My butt is fat, my brain is not, hard maybe, but that's different - like muscles when you exercise them well and often.

 

No, I will not get angry at the chair, I will get angry at you for offering me a knowingly faulty chair.

 

And no, I would not grasp for the faulty chair but while falling I would grasp for some other object capable of supporting my weight, you neck, for example.

 

 

 

Hehehe. I used to have lucid dreams. They are extremely rare anymore. I have no monsters - they are all dead. But I can still imagine being a butterfly.

 

 

 

Okay, I pretty much have to agree with you here. You and I are walking different paths so it is understandable that we will not always agree. And we will not even 'see' things from the same perspective.

 

Yes, there is a lot of fakery in life. We need to prevent beind swept under the rug.

 

I have no idea what the purpose of your journey is. You do seem to have a good start.

 

Yes, it takes courage to question others. It takes more courage to find your own 'truths' by yourself instead of being a robot and following the commands of your programmer. Break the hard drive and operate off floppys until you can get a working hard drive that has had 'erase all data' applied to it.

 

Anyhow, my chair is still doing fine, thanks for asking. Hehehe.

 

hahaha, I should have never brought up the chair

 

How about this lucid dream of yours? I'm glad that you believe that lucid dreaming is real. Have you never wondered why you don't become lucid all the time, during your dreams? You are in a dream, and alot of weird stuff happens, yet you do not see that it is a dream! A potatoe talks to you and you speak with it as if it were a real thing. Isn't that odd? When you're in the dream, the things that happen are real! They really are! The more you increase awareness and question it the more vivid and real they become. The potatoe will have a strong scent, his voice will become clear and his speech will become incredibly wise and emotional. Yet you see something diffrent from usual, you actually think that it is fake because you remember the past life of you lying in bed. Suddenly you have become lucid of the fact that everything is fake. Now you can do amazing things, change the reality by thought alone, as if you live beyond time and space. What if your consciousness existed before you were born, yet you forgot it because your awareness has been lowered? Isn't the dream and reality a pattern, like an electron orbiting and atom? Then if our reality is the earth, we might very well have forgot all about the sun. The higher dimension.

Accepting fakeness during waking hours is hard. You cannot do it easily. You can go ahead and try now, as if you are trying out a shoe to see if it fits. You can always take it off. "this is all fake" you simply cannot believe it with your heart, because it feels all so real to you! The more you try to believe, the more your mind tries to seek evidence of everything being real. And that is where the magic begins.

 

The moment the mind becomes so vivid and alert and aware of everything, as a last attempt to prove that everything is real... This is the moment where you actually begin to see that everything is fake and that scares the crap out of me everytime I do it. I can't go further then the fear. I cannot let go of my ego. The fear gets me everytime, it robs me of my breath, it feels like dieing. Just as Tulku says.

 

That aside, if you wish to increase awareness and observe the secrets of this universe, you must be without desire. Your mind has desires, so be without mind, be without self. Just continue to attack your own existance, your core identity untill you will have a mental near death experience. It is enlightening to the least. Mentally dieing? I do not know what lies beyond, I fear to get past that point. For it might be hell out there, it might be heaven I do not know. I'm sure there are alot of couragious people who've been there. They claim it is heaven if you want it to be.

[Everything]

I'm typing on my iPod, so forgive the typos.

Tell me bout it... I've been writing on my little iPhone for months now. I kinda stopped appologizing in advance. Figured if I was going to use my iPhone so often I might aswell get good at it ^^

 

On average, I write 12 typo's each reply. It's like the most fun and challenging game on my iPhone to try and beat my previous scores. I call it "Typo-less game" The application? Safari

Edited September 4, 2011 by Everything

[tulku]

I agree with mostly all of tulku's words...

I find it odd how everyone disagrees with tulku. He speaks such wise words. Ofcourse he has an ego, we all do. We can only let go when our body is in a tranquil or dead state.

 

When you replace "kill ego" with "let go ego" it may sound more realistic, because a return to ego is always possible. That is what the first scary experience of letting go teaches us. You cannot let go of ego whenever you want, because it will not feel safe during waking hours for example. In dreams its very easy, because you can't die. That is why becoming lucid is only done easy during dreaming or sleeping. Desires are lucidity killers. If one needs to train resistance against desires, just try to increase the length of your lucid dream. As soon as you desire you are carried away by this soothing feeling and you suddenly fall for the illusions, waking up to a stupid dream that could have been much more. Try to have sex in a lucid dream, it cannot be done unless you can have sex with a desireless mind. You have to train for this, it can be done.

 

Tulku is very radical about this I think. We can have sex, but we can also learn to stay lucid, or desireless during sex. This does not mean that your dick becomes small. If it shrinks it means you are afraid of something. Simply let go, be lucid, and continue to fuck. This will keep you aware of all the fakeness even the fakeness of the great sensations of fucking. Desireless is awareness of sensations, yet not carried away by them. It means that you cannot be tricked by the devil because you're alert, like a cat. Use part of the awareness to detach, let go of the ego and observe it from a higher perspective. Yet allow your ego to carry on without you. You may even feed its desires so that it doesn't bother you as yoi float away. Trick your own mind, the Tao Te Ching is all about knowledge that leads nowhere, brcause it is a text with a purpose of tricking the mind or ego so that you cam reach higher states of consciousness.

 

What tulku says is simply true... This world has patterns, therefor it is fake. Reality does not have patterns but people forgot that. It is hard to accept that this is an illusion, but it is. Especially whem someone else is speaking of it or you are thinking about it. Accepting this world to be fake is something you have to DO. Just try it right now, see if you can succeed. If you do not even feel a little fear, you did something wrong. Letting go of reality feels like dieing, just as initiating a lucid dream feels like dieing, because you have to accept that everything is fake. Everything in your life. Everything is relative, it depends on eachother. That is the whole proof of the illusion we live in. Accepting this increases your alertness, awareness, consciousness. The secret to me lies withing the fact that it doesn't matter how you view life, it matters how much of it you view. Firstly, because an electron that is being observed changes behaviour then when it is not observed. It becomes constant, predictable. Secondly, it doesn't matter how much you change your ego, in the end you will never get further then just the ego. You cannot solve a problem with the same level of consciousness that created it.

 

So I completely agree with Tulku, I just disagree that letting go of ego requires fearlessness. Fearlessness is the reward for letting go of ego. The requirement is courage.

 

I was going to create a topic about the fear of letting go ego, guess there is one right here.

 

Thanks Tulku. I enjoy it when people use their ego to proof that it is fake. It is hilarious to see everyones ego defenses all up and running. So much fear in the air here, wheres all the courage? Sure during forum time is not a good time to accept fakeness, but you should atleast try damnit!

 

the question is that if one engages in sex without being involved with the passions, then why bother doing it in the first place?

 

see most people have sex for the purpose of mindlessly blowing their senses away with the feeling of joy which arises from sexual relationships..

 

so if you are telling someone to being disinvolved with the passions and joy of sex while having sex?

 

it is like telling a starving beggar to not feel happy while eating a freshly cooked piece of marinated steak with italian sauce..

 

totally impossible for most people and even if it is possible, then why engage yourself in sexual acts?

 

if the purpose is to be dispassionate, then why bother engaging in acts which give you joy in the first place?