[TTC Study] Chapter 63 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Michael Sternbach]

Hmmm... I thought that Wu wei doesn't really mean non-action (philosophically speaking) but rather, um, let's say spontaneous or intuitive action or, in fact, being one with one's action (no line between the action and the agent). But then, what's the difference to Wei wu wei?

 

Any illuminating thoughts, Tao tigers?

[Marblehead]

Just wondering:

 

 

是以聖人猷難之 So the wise man, lost in difficulty, If the wise man becomes difficulty,

Is there any way to justify translating this to read:

 

So the wise man, at one with difficulty, (?)

 

Your second translation:

 

If the wise man becomes difficulty,

 

is close but this phrase sounds so strange in English.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead sir.. you asked for it...

Thanks. I have already commented. It's always fun to look at the Chapters from the perspective of someone else.

[Marblehead]

Nice. Interesting, these last two line:

 

my translation:

 

是以聖人猷難之

Therefore, wise people 猷plan for difficulty

古冬亡難

(In this way) the 冬winters of the 古past were not difficult

I can't recall ever seeing them in this form before but their construct is consistent with the general construct of the TTC.

[Marblehead]

Hmmm... I thought that Wu wei doesn't really mean non-action (philosophically speaking) but rather, um, let's say spontaneous or intuitive action or, in fact, being one with one's action (no line between the action and the agent). But then, what's the difference to Wei wu wei?

 

Any illuminating thoughts, Tao tigers?

I am still open to a more in depth of the concepts of wu wei and wei wu wei.

 

The way I like to look at it right now is:

 

Wu wei = non (without) doing (not interfering with the natural flow)

Wei wu wei = Doing without doing (acting) (without alterior motive) (This would ultimately mean interfering with the natural flow.)

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Looking like "winters" may have actually been 终conclusion, and "easy" may have been 惕caution.

 

Where are you getting the Guodian text from DBJ? Not sure what happened to my link of the photos of the full original on bamboo.

 

 

I would read this as:

 

大少之多惕必多難

(For the) large (to become) small, many cautions are required (when faced with) many difficulties.

是以聖人猷難之

Therefore, wise people 猷plan for difficulty.

古冬亡難

Since time immemorial, (this has been how to) conclude without difficulty.

[dust]

Thanks for bringing in the Guodian characters dbj. The last line here is especially different and revealing of origins!

 

No problem. I'd been looking at it recently, then yours and Marblehead's comments in the other thread spurred me on to wrap it up and try to get some feedback...

 

 

 

Looking like "winters" may have actually been 终conclusion, and "easy" may have been 惕caution.

 

Where are you getting the Guodian text from DBJ? Not sure what happened to my link of the photos of the full original on bamboo.

 

I'm doing the transcription of the characters myself. I've been writing them as closely as I can to how they appear on the slips, but of course the meaning is often not the same as it was back then.

 

I've found that this source is closer than most others: http://www.docin.com/p-309516841.html

 

 

I would read this as:

 

大少之多惕必多難

(For the) large (to become) small, many cautions are required (when faced with) many difficulties.

是以聖人猷難之

Therefore, wise people 猷plan for difficulty.

古冬亡難

Since time immemorial, (this has been how to) conclude without difficulty.

 

Though Henricks and others have transcribed as 惕, I think that it is in fact 易 written in a funny way (kind of rotated 90^o) -- what they seem to have taken to be the 心 radical I think is actually the 日 from 易

 

猷， though it now means to "plan", originally was a pictograph of a drunken dog, and meant "lost" or "confused". So, it could be either, I have no idea! But in chapter 15 it is used as "cautious" (Henricks), or as I see it, "lost"

 

Also, 古, though it now means "ancient" or "past", originally meant a summation, just as 故

and 冬, though it now means "winter", originally meant "in the end"

so together, 古冬 is the ancient variation of 故终 -- "therefore, in the end...."

 

These are just my own ideas... many don't agree!

 

 

 

edit: link to scans of the slips: http://www.alice-dsl.net/wulfdieterich/index.htm/

Edited October 5, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dust]

Just wondering:

 

Is there any way to justify translating this to read:

 

So the wise man, at one with difficulty

 

Yes..

Thing is, I took a slight liberty with that particular interpretation. You could see my second translation as following on from the first one, and making assumptions based on it.

 

Action knows no action, therefore There is no action,

Service knows no service, therefore There is no service,

The ending knows no ending; therefore There is no ending;

Great or small, the easiest is hardest; = Great or small, the easiest is hardest;

So the wise man, lost in difficulty, or in other words So for the wise man, at one with difficulty,

Knows no difficulty There is no difficulty

Edited October 5, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dust]

Hmmm... I thought that Wu wei doesn't really mean non-action (philosophically speaking) but rather, um, let's say spontaneous or intuitive action or, in fact, being one with one's action (no line between the action and the agent). But then, what's the difference to Wei wu wei?

 

Any illuminating thoughts, Tao tigers?

 

My translations are only based on the GD text. For now, I haven't considered modern Taoist thought. So, what I translate might not always agree 100% with modern Taoist ideas. Or, more likely, it will agree, but not how one expects it to.

 

If we assume that this is a very early version of the DDJ, any Taoist ideas that have developed over the last 2300 years since the GD was written were not necessarily fully-fledged conceptual traditions back then, 300 BCE, right?

 

 

So, as I understand the concept of 為无為 from this particular chapter, I think it is very similar to 无為 . I think that perhaps he was describing the same idea -- 无為 literally means "without action", while 為无為 means "action without action".

 

I don't think he was saying "practice non-action", but rather "to action, there is no action"

 

Then later on this phrase, 為无為 , came to represent the entire meaning of the chapter: become one with action or become one with difficulty etc

 

 

Did I explain myself well?? Feels like I can't get the words out right tonight

Edited October 5, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Michael Sternbach]

I am still open to a more in depth of the concepts of wu wei and wei wu wei.

 

The way I like to look at it right now is:

 

Wu wei = non (without) doing (not interfering with the natural flow)

Wei wu wei = Doing without doing (acting) (without alterior motive) (This would ultimately mean interfering with the natural flow.)

 

So wu wei would then really mean not taking any action... except perhaps listening to the birds singing and watching the grass grow.

 

But wei wu wei would be acting as a part of the natural flow, wouldn't it? (The non-dualist thingie here.)

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Hmmm... I thought that Wu wei doesn't really mean non-action (philosophically speaking) but rather, um, let's say spontaneous or intuitive action or, in fact, being one with one's action (no line between the action and the agent). But then, what's the difference to Wei wu wei?

 

Any illuminating thoughts, Tao tigers?

 

With wei wu wei, "action" is in one case a noun and the other a verb.

 

So "action is done without action" or "the action of non-action." Essentially, effortless action.

 

In this case, this is made a bit more apparent by the repeated poetic use of how things are done without effort.

 

為亡為

Action (performed) without action

事亡事

Work obligations (performed) without the obligation

未亡未

Ending (arrives) without termination

 

note: 未 means "not yet" rather than "end."

 

 

or better yet:

 

With effortless action, be dutiful without it being "your duty." (Be as though) time is almost up without time being "almost up.

 

For the large to become small, many cautions are required when faced with many difficulties.Therefore, wise people plan for difficulty. Since time immemorial, (this has been how to) conclude without difficulty.

 

Though I actually prefer "Thereby winters are without difficulty." I wouldn't be surprised if it played a role there. I'm already fairly convinced that certain radicals played a role almost like poetic NLP - slipping activating words into the poetry which are easily passed over but add to the meaning.

 

 

thanks for the links DBJ. I'm not sure what to make of those radicals either, but only good things have come from the possibilities

Edited October 5, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[flowing hands]

CHAPTER 63

In the Universe, the Dao and the Ten Thousand Things all flow according to their natures.

The Heavenly bodies move and glow according to how they were formed

Man should take note of this and exercise himself according to their influence,

and then he will be in keeping with the Dao.

By following the flow and entering into emptiness,

practice the ways of doing without doing, influencing without interfering.

For the Heavenly bodies influence our lives, but we can never feel their influence.

The Sage follows the flow and so he practices influence without interfering.

He rewards anger and strife with care and understanding.

He meets aggression with yielding softness.

So he remains at one, unattached and unharmed.

His nature is simple and yielding.

So he never complicates his life.

He never demands too much of the people or life,

and so he does not expect people to fulfill their part.

Too many promises can never be kept.

So, go with the flow of things and all will be well.

When difficulties arise the Sage confronts them, and so he never experiences problems.

[dust]

I'm already fairly convinced that certain radicals played a role almost like poetic NLP - slipping activating words into the poetry which are easily passed over but add to the meaning.

 

I'm sure they still do. But yes, much more so back then. This is why when it comes to the GD especially, I never discount the original meaning of a word..

 

 

edit:

H.E. also, if you were wondering how the hell I came to certain conclusions about meanings, I've been finding these websites very useful:

http://dict.shufaji.com/word-2880.html

http://dict.variants.moe.edu.tw/suo.htm

http://www.zdic.net/

and for looking at character variants, http://www.zitizhuanhuan.com/zixing/ can be of use

 

I'm always open to other sources & suggestions!

Edited October 5, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

 

Since time immemorial, (this has been how to) conclude without difficulty.

Chuang Tzu would agree with this interpretation, I think. He did a section in one of the Chapters about this concept.

[dust]

note: 未 means "not yet" rather than "end."

 

You're right, of course. It always has.

 

Others such as Henricks have transcribed it as the received version: 味 , but it's clearly not written as that

 

But if 未 means "without having yet born fruit" or simply "not yet", 未亡未 doesn't really mean anything, does it? Doesn't make sense to me, anyway.

 

So perhaps it is meant as 味 after all...?

 

"Taste without tasting", or "Flavour knows no flavour"

[Marblehead]

So wu wei would then really mean not taking any action... except perhaps listening to the birds singing and watching the grass grow.

I can't say I agree with this. It is my understanding that while in the state of "wu wei" we are still living a normal life. Chopping wood and carrying water, etc. The normal, everyday things we do in life. But yes, it would include listening to the birds and watching the grass grow once we had enough fire wood and water.

 

But wei wu wei would be acting as a part of the natural flow, wouldn't it? (The non-dualist thingie here.)

To me, wei wu wei would be rushing into the street to rescue a child who was about to be run over by an automobile. We interfered with the natural flow because the natural flow would have been for the child to be run over. But we didn't do it so that we could be rewarded in any way, we did it because it was the right thing to do.

 

I guess I could say that wei wu wei would be interfering in the natural flow of another thing or person. (All of our natural flow is within the concept of wu wei.)

 

Can I possibly associate it with wu wei being internal and wei wu wei being external? (This was my first consideration of this thought.)

[Harmonious Emptiness]

You're right, of course. It always has.

 

Others such as Henricks have transcribed it as the received version: 味 , but it's clearly not written as that

 

But if 未 means "without having yet born fruit" or simply "not yet", 未亡未 doesn't really mean anything, does it? Doesn't make sense to me, anyway.

 

So perhaps it is meant as 味 after all...?

 

"Taste without tasting", or "Flavour knows no flavour"

 

Made sense to me as

 

(Be as though) time is almost up without time being "almost up."

 

Of course, this fits into the whole meaning of the chapter too.

 

I figure there are a few other things perhaps being used here - one is the repetition for poetic effect, another perhaps being the repetition and sparcity of words because literacy was not necessarily very high at the time, so few words means more words that people know. 未 wei being one of those words. This situation does seem to lend itself to another type of poetic ingenuity where few words mean many things. The fewer, the more meanings possible really.

 

What's also amazing is how they manage to make all of these possible meanings connect on central themes.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Taoist Texts]

So perhaps it is meant as 味 after all...?

yes it is 'taste' , also there is a pun intended 無味 wúwèi=無為 wúwéi

 

 

"Taste without tasting", or "Flavour knows no flavour"

almost correct: 'taste what is still tasteless"

[dust]

yes it is 'taste' , also there is a pun intended 無味 wúwèi=無為 wúwéi

 

 

almost correct: 'taste what is still tasteless"

 

I realise what the traditional understanding is... I simply don't agree.

 

I also don't think you can say what is "correct" or not, especially when there is no consensus.

 

Feng: Taste the tasteless

Addiss: Taste without tasting

Henricks: Find flavor in what has no flavor

Wu: Savour the savourless

 

Assuming that the GD writer meant 未 as 味 , there are still many interpretations..

 

And as far as the pun: how do we know how they pronounced these characters in Chu? Are we sure that the pronunciation of every character in the DDJ 2300 years ago was exactly the same as now?

Edited October 6, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Taoist Texts]

Of course an abcence of a consensus and a big IMHO were implied;)

 

Selecting 無味 over 無未 is supported by the fact of 無味 being a set combo.

 

The overall thrust of the paragraph is about the nipping a problem in the bud rather than dealing with the difficulty when it is already a big one, that would be non-action. To borrow Marblehead's example: dragging a kid from under the bus is action, making sure that the kid knows not to run into the street - is non-action.

 

The idea that prononciation was different in antiquity originated with Karlgren, i think his work is mainly debunked by now.

[dust]

Of course an abcence of a consensus and a big IMHO were implied;)

 

I'll try to remember in the future

 

 

 

The idea that prononciation was different in antiquity originated with Karlgren, i think his work is mainly debunked by now.

 

I've tried not to state anything as fact thus far, but it seems fairly obvious that pronunciation changes over time (and place). This isn't an idea unique to Karlgren -- it's a universal feature of language...

 

I didn't pay much attention to the phonetic alphabet or phonetics generally in school; it seemed easier just to learn pronunciation by hearing and speaking. So I won't pretend to understand half of what's going on in the following article, but from the half I do understand, it seems that there have been a lot of changes even in the last few hundred years..

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Chinese_phonology

[Michael Sternbach]

Marblehead,

 

Regarding the concepts of wu wei and wei wu wei (for which you have given some interesting definitions above), where would you put the state of effortless action as sometimes experienced by writers, martial artists etc. into this context?

Edited October 6, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[Marblehead]

Good question.

Marblehead,

 

Regarding the concepts of wu wei and wei wu wei (for which you have given some interesting definitions above), where would you put the state of effortless action as sometimes experienced by writers, martial artists etc. into this context?

I think that would have to go to "wu wei". Reason being that these events are a natural flow of the person's mind/body.

 

I think the key here is pointing to "natural flow". ChiDragon used the term non-interference.

 

For me, non-interference with the natural flow would be wu wei.

 

When we interfere with the natural flow, as with pulling the child out of the way of traffic or stopping a rapist from raping a girl or woman I think this would be called wei wu wei. We have interfered but we have done the right thing.

 

And I think this is very closely related to that other thread about "Is it egotistical to defend one's self" or however the thread title reads. Wu wei would be to allow someone to kill us. Wei wu wei would be to stop the MF.

[Michael Sternbach]

Thanks. Something for me to ponder.

[Marblehead]

Thanks. Something for me to ponder.

Just a reminder; I'm not really totally at ease with my understandings regarding these two concepts. The basics are fine but I'm sure the words will still change a number of times before I have said it in a manner where I feel comfortable with what I have said.