Www.taoofdefiance.com

[Peregrino]

With so many amusing and sexy topics on the board right now, I am almost reluctant to start a thread on something as sobering as politics, but I did come across this website dedicated to a subject of perpetual interest to me, namely the relationship between Taoism and politics.

 

I agree with this Taoist blogger from Australia about the need to face up to the very real threat of radical Islam. (Just guess which of these countries recognizes the right to pursue Taoist practices: 1) Saudi Arabia; 2) Iran; or 3) Israel. Hmm . . . ) However, I part ways regarding the fiasco of Bush's Iraq invasion. I'm not a fan of John Howard, either, from what I know of him, but for heaven's sake, it should be clear by now that not all who vigorously oppose jihad are friggin' rightwing nutjobs! (Interesting that this defiant Taoist is an MMA fan--on that point I can concur with him . . . Nothin' like combinin' meditation and the art of whoopass!) : )

 

To me the proper "Taoist" response to the jihadis and the states who sponsor them wouldn't entail tolerating--and therefore encouraging--barbaric behavior (appeasement), but neither would it entail ill-conceived invasions that smack of empire-building while exploiting the fear of terrorism (e.g. the Iraq war). Western democracies have every right to defend themselves, but that doesn't have anything to do with imposing "democracy" on cultures that don't want anything to do with it. For the most part, I think democratic nations should simply ISOLATE all countries that impose sharia (including our "allies" in countries like Saudi Arabia). The price of this policy would be a radical campaign to end dependence on foreign oil, for starters.

 

Of course, a Buddhist or Christian perspective might dictate practicing "compassion" for one's enemies (or non-neighborly neighbors, if that sounds too "dualistic" and "judgmental" for some of you). I personally believe that such an approach often simply *enables aggression*, and would not be in keeping with the Taoist ideal of harmonious balance; i.e., it would involve *excessive* yielding when resistance is called for.

 

Sri Aurobindo has been very influential for me here, but I'm interested in what other Taoists or Taoist-inspired people on this forum have to say.

 

--Peregrino

[Wayfarer64]

With so many amusing and sexy topics on the board right now, I am almost reluctant to start a thread on something as sobering as politics, but I did come across this website dedicated to a subject of perpetual interest to me, namely the relationship between Taoism and politics.

 

I agree with this Taoist blogger from Australia about the need to face up to the very real threat of radical Islam. (Just guess which of these countries recognizes the right to pursue Taoist practices: 1) Saudi Arabia; 2) Iran; or 3) Israel. Hmm . . . ) However, I part ways regarding the fiasco of Bush's Iraq invasion. I'm not a fan of John Howard, either, from what I know of him, but for heaven's sake, it should be clear by now that not all who vigorously oppose jihad are friggin' rightwing nutjobs! (Interesting that this defiant Taoist is an MMA fan--on that point I can concur with him . . . Nothin' like combinin' meditation and the art of whoopass!) : )

 

To me the proper "Taoist" response to the jihadis and the states who sponsor them wouldn't entail tolerating--and therefore encouraging--barbaric behavior (appeasement), but neither would it entail ill-conceived invasions that smack of empire-building while exploiting the fear of terrorism (e.g. the Iraq war). Western democracies have every right to defend themselves, but that doesn't have anything to do with imposing "democracy" on cultures that don't want anything to do with it. For the most part, I think democratic nations should simply ISOLATE all countries that impose sharia (including our "allies" in countries like Saudi Arabia). The price of this policy would be a radical campaign to end dependence on foreign oil, for starters.

 

Of course, a Buddhist or Christian perspective might dictate practicing "compassion" for one's enemies (or non-neighborly neighbors, if that sounds too "dualistic" and "judgmental" for some of you). I personally believe that such an approach often simply *enables aggression*, and would not be in keeping with the Taoist ideal of harmonious balance; i.e., it would involve *excessive* yielding when resistance is called for.

 

Sri Aurobindo has been very influential for me here, but I'm interested in what other Taoists or Taoist-inspired people on this forum have to say.

 

--Peregrino

[thelerner]

Does this sound right? A taoist has few or no hard and fast rules. No preconceptions. Every case and situation is bound and judged through logic and intuition without litmous tests or prejudice.

 

There is no They are bad, We are good. There is only we. We need to see these dark reflections as what they are reminders to ourselves to get back on the path. And if its within our power or influence to change what is wrong.

 

We don't have a snowballs chance of changing say..policies in Saudi Arabia. But, I can affect the world by changing attitudes of rascism and bigotry within myself.

 

 

Michael

[Wayfarer64]

I sure am glad this has come up. I have had a few email trades with a friend about this.

I think we should realize the historic perspective that for some 1400 years there has been an ongoing struggle between Islam and Christianity. Not much turning of cheeks in this thing either. The Crusades were full-on invasions that swept Jews, dark skinned Christians and Muslems under the swords of the onslaught. Apparently these armies had very little discipline to speak of and much blood lust and greed driving them on to The Holy Land.

The sacking of Antioch was probably the most famous example of the willy-nilly nature many of these escapades had. Ransoms were traditionally demanded of any city or town - just not to get sacked.

It really didn't matter much who lived in the town at all. It was a situation where one joined a Crusade to improve one's lot in life. Very few of these guys were in it for religious conviction but most put that justification onto their activities.

"Why of course I am doing this raping and pillaging in the name of Christ!" What a travisty. And The Children's Crusade is one of the most horrific stories in all of history.

And that shit happened before these hordes ever reached the Holy Land. Then they really went at it.

Traditionally The jews faired as badly or worse than the Muslems in those days. Oy vey!

So the fight was on! The Muslems took most of habitable and not so habitable North Africa, the Middle East of course and most of Spain, Sicily, and got deep into Indonesia and the Phillipines too. I'm not keeping this in chronological order because I can't remember it... but there was a lot of fighting for several centuries- El Cid and Sarradin, Gordon of Egypt and on to Ossama bin loose too long. LOTS of hate built up over the centuries.

 

These wars were kept alive by the leadership on both sides who in most cases profited from them or used the conflicts to redirect unrest. This is still what is going on.

 

Right now is one of those historical cross roads we see so much better with hind sight.

But basically what changed everything for Islam is OIL.

Man is there power in that crap! The bang for yer buck is huge in terms of actual generation of power and the bucks being made are on huge margins compared to many similar products.

Most chemicals sell at tiny margins where a supplier sells fourteen barrels to make the profit on the fifteenth. Oil gives these greedy bastards up to 30% or more on the barrel in times of war.

And look what we have now. Hezbolla- a client "state" of Iran which is a state largly supported by oil. and Hamas is a client "state" of Syria another nation supported by oil revenues... These proxy states are at war with Israel a client state of the USA, currently run by Saudi Arabia through G. W. Bush and his oil biz cronies.

 

I believe this is quite true to no small extent. The Bush family and their pals at the Carlyle Group have been paid something like four billion $4,000,000,000, to help secure Saudi interests world wide. As prez he makes some what less. Where do his loyalties lie?

The Saudies financed the 9/11 attacks but his administration goes after Iraq- at who's behest ... Surely not the families of the victims who had to fight so hard to get the 9/11 Commission even started and then years later the adminstration tried to black-out the 28 pages discribing how Saudi Arabia financed the hijackers!

So for me the Jihad stems from arab leadership who want to keep oil prices up. Oil prices go down when more is found. Finding oil is no longer the thrust of the industry. Oil prices go up with huge profits when there is trouble in oil producing areas.

The saddest part to me is how so many young men are given nothing to read but a version of the Koran for most of their early years, then they are taught spurious and misleading dogma that twists the teachings of The Prophet into hate mongering anti-Jewish and anti-US doctrines that promote activities prone to killing innocent strangers.

Now we get to the real question of what is driving the Jihad. Is it jealousy of the "West" and its power and material glory ... or is it a rejection of the West and its power and material glory.

Or maybe the question is more like - Craving power over the direction of the onset of the new one world society, (which looks very western this week), or rejecting it and trying to preserve an idealized version of past glories believed to exist within their society- ( if only it could manifest itself in a pure Islamic state)...

I guess those questions are answered one person at a time.

Another case of wonderful teachings being skewed for dark political purposes. What a freakin' world!

For those of you who would rather watch a movie than read a book...

"Why We Fight" is a good movie to see for a glimpse at the military industial complex's role in this shit.

"On Native Soil" shows some of the US government's screw-ups that allowed 9/11 to go down-(but no mention of the blacked out 28 pages)

"The smartest Guys in the Room" shows how the ENRON dibacle shaped up-which is energy related and relavent to this story of Bush family corruption too...

As a Taoist I have no problem with physical force being applyed judisiously in any given situation. The use of terror is just plain wrong and always an act of cowards and fools who have little grasp of human nature or political realities. They are just to stupid and lazy to glean power through action and discourse that changes minds and hearts toward their way of thinking in a rational fashion. I think undermining the "schools" which are mind-control centers not mind-expanding forums -and the people who support these brain-washers (more Saudis) is our best tactic... The means to that end should include tommahawk missles and visiting dignataries who demand access and reach out to open the young minds being warped...

Hoping I didn't stray too much from thread I exuant-

Edited September 10, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[Peregrino]

[Peregrino]

One more thing: By the term "moderate" (Islam, feminism, manliness, etc.), I in no way imply "diluted" or "wishy-washy", but a passionate dedication to a harmonious balance, allowing for the incorporation of appropriate virtues that have passed through a careful discernment process. Perhaps "integral" would be a better term, e.g. an "integral manliness" that incorporates traditional masculine virtues while rejecting nihilistic pathologies.

 

On that note, I highly recommend the book *Manliness* by Harvey Mansfield, an old-school liberal who thinks the time has come for men to get over any complexes about their implicit moral inferiority to women and re-assert the *enlightened* values of their forebears without repeating their mistakes--i.e., don't throw out the baby with the bath water!

[Wayfarer64]

One more thing: By the term "moderate" (Islam, feminism, manliness, etc.), I in no way imply "diluted" or "wishy-washy", but a passionate dedication to a harmonious balance, allowing for the incorporation of appropriate virtues that have passed through a careful discernment process. Perhaps "integral" would be a better term, e.g. an "integral manliness" that incorporates traditional masculine virtues while rejecting nihilistic pathologies.

 

On that note, I highly recommend the book *Manliness* by Harvey Mansfield, an old-school liberal who thinks the time has come for men to get over any complexes about their implicit moral inferiority to women and re-assert the *enlightened* values of their forebears without repeating their mistakes--i.e., don't throw out the baby with the bath water!

 

 

Thanks for the kind words!

I have never found it difficult to keep a strong arm and stout heart at the ready to defend my artistic and poetic sensibilities. But I have also never thought that American society had a grasp on what culture can mean to men who wish to be more than fans of a sports team or drive a sports car, or pick-up truck with a gun rack to identify themselves as men...

Islamic men are sports fans too I assume - but may have guns more often than cars to project masculinity...A knife in yr belt made of Rhino horn may project power in their culture - but I think that comparing masculine traits is a dead end...Every society has its own status symbols and " scent markers " for turf and territory...

I think we are plenty tough enough as a race; and our leadership here in America is certainly a war-mongering lot at this time and they did manage to grab and keep power through two illegitimate "elections"...

So, I think the machismo thing is alive and well as we project power around the world.

Implicit moral inferiority to women!? Whathefuckisthat!? Man you must never have dated western women! Freakin' killer elite! I've been blessed with having known quite a few truly enlightened women but they are rare in my experience of sophisticated urban society...and crap I don't know where to start...It just doesn't ring true. The materialism of American women seems out of the ball-park compared to any other demographic group -save perhaps ALL American teen-agers! I don't buy it. And Europeans are catching up to our rampant materialism as is the rest of the world. as stated above-

I stated my view of Islamic fundamentalists above... I agree with your basic premise that Islam needs a reformation or a referendum on a reformation or maybe just a refresher course in civility. There is a change taking place that needs to be addressed in a manner that will educate and inform and instill pride without casting aspersions on Jews and Yankees (not the team)...

Being pissed off and acting out - as a political statement and end in itself just lacks maturity.

But how can we expect maturity from guys who spent their whole lives reading one interpretation of one book that then was warped into a Jihadist rant!? These are one-dementional beings with little but sexual frustration and hate to fuel their minds and activities.

Exposing the Saudi money that supports and creates these twisted fucks is job one. But when the 9/11 commission came out the Bush administration tried to black-out the 28 pages that outlined how it was Saudi money that paid for the hijackers and their support teams!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have written here already what I think is going on... That the power elite of this world and the milatary-industrial complex (that is now a global juggernaught) is running the show. The Carlyle group. THE CARLYLE GROUP. THE FUCKING CARLYLE GROUP!

Our leadership has sold us out. We need to look inward as a society to see our own faults and correct them ASAP rather than worry about the arab hot-heads who are just tools of the oil companies that run the various governments supporting these wars of proxy and "terrorist" groups. The seed of terrorism is in the power structures that enable them to exist.

The true weakness of western man -and this is much more prevalent in the USA than anywhere else in the world- is our abysmal ignorance of world and local politics that shapes our reality. Most American men do not know the names of their State senators, their congressmen the various secretaries in the Federal Govt. They do not understand the structure of our government nor the importance and content of our Constitution. But they can usually tell you the stats of their favorite sports' team man for man! And forget about geo-political realities or even plain geography!

The manishness of men all over the world is based on boyish interests that have not been out-grown. We do not know the world we live in further than the teams our teams play against. So we tend to be an us or them sort of reactionary bunch on the team or off the team, with little concept of being on the side of humanity or tolerance or peace AS MASCULINE and FORCFUL stances to take against a power structure that demands local loyalties above all. They devide and conquer us one by one as groups anyway they can!

The last thing the oil companies' war machine wants is peace or environmental awareness. Their profits would dive dramaticly if hippies ran the world! They pray to their God with thanks that valuing the Earth and humanity over profit and materialistic status is a long ways off...

So I do not believe the problem with facing up to Islamic militerism is in our unwillingness to fight them but in our lack of willingness to confront our own leaders' corruption and greed, that supports Saudi Interests over the interests of the nation they were elected to protect and uphold the Constitution of.

This administration has undermined our Constitution in a willful and unforgivable attack that supercedes the attacks of 9/11 in threat and actual harm dealt this nation. The only Western men that have demonstrated a total lack of mannishness are the Democrates in the Federal Government that have allowed this power grab to transpire. Ironicly this power grab was allowed as a show of verile support for the war effort at hand !!!

Bah fucking HUMBUG to such vapid manishness!

Edited September 15, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[thelerner]

My 'spiritual' writing here does sound a bit limp wristed (now he's going after the gays?!) when I read it back. In this world, to me, there is right and there is wrong. But, we're not G-d, and the when force is used the dominoes spill in all directions. It works great in a 2 hour movie and even better in a half hour show.

 

As I get older, I see violence in a darker starker light. But its crappy to be a victim, and when you fight, fight to win. Half measures are no mercy for either side.

 

Michael

[Wayfarer64]

My 'spiritual' writing here does sound a bit limp wristed (now he's going after the gays?!) when I read it back. In this world, to me, there is right and there is wrong. But, we're not G-d, and the when force is used the dominoes spill in all directions. It works great in a 2 hour movie and even better in a half hour show.

 

As I get older, I see violence in a darker starker light. But its crappy to be a victim, and when you fight, fight to win. Half measures are no mercy for either side.

 

Michael

 

War IS hell! And if yr in it - best bring it, no doubt my brother. I just believe that the true enemy is using the terrorists as a front to create the "war on terror". This has been done to thus create profits. The whole world loses. Yes, we all lose except the Military Industrial Complex (MIC)- the Haliburtons and Exxons and Corporate moguls who are running the world...

The Saudis created the 9/11 terrorists. This has been shown. Macho George Bush HOLDS HANDS with the Saudi princes as they stroll along and he allows pictures to be taken - not caring a rosy red rat's ass what it looks like to the American public...This is a false war that could have been curtailed EASILY had there been political will to do so from both the Clinton and Bush administrations. 9/11 need never have happened 'cept the neo-cons demanded that it happen, so they could go and get the Iraqi oil and sew -up the region in yet another us and them struggle...That boosts the profits to a new level of obsenity for Exxon and other corporate entities...

It has been said that fascism is the state being run for the good of corporations, what Ike first called the Military-Industrial Complex. This idea was stated from many world leaders such as Churchill, Mussilini and Peron -who wanted to call his regime "The Corporation"! ... As well as Robert Kennedy Jr. more recently. The nazis may have lost WWII but fascism prevailed as the new world order. That is the real enemy of our world's enlightened progress at this time. That they can convince us that the Jihadists are the real enemy is so damn easy to do - for them- that it will make the future wonder just what sorts of idiots live in our time. They trained one group to attack another group and then rake in the dough as we shit ourselves in terror and develope war machines to surpass all in history, to chase a cadre of militerized puppets in the mountains of central Asia.

Lets not forget that the USA originally supported the Jihadists when the MIC wanted a Russian front to sell their weapons into...

World politics is being driven by global corporations with no conscience to answer to. We are all victims paying at the pump or with our blood and treasure to secure the oil for them, as if their interests were ours. Our interests are in creating a new source of energy and cleaning-up the mess these bastards have made over the past century of industrial "progress".

[Grendel]

Do you think that you can rule the universe? You would only ruin it.

 

The neo-con/Military-Industrial Complex and the Islamic Neo-Jihadists are both dominators. If one opposes a dominator with military force, you are falling into his trap of limited perception, and becoming locked in his narrow range of actions and ideas.

 

In some sense, at least... in the present pattern, they create one another, or more accurately speaking....they require one another to exist.

 

More and more I have begun to think that such things are part of the Artifical Reality. It really has nothing to do with my ongoing experience of existing, and in being so are not worthwhile foci of my attention.

 

It seems to be a hard habit to break, however.

[Wayfarer64]

Do you think that you can rule the universe? You would only ruin it.

 

The neo-con/Military-Industrial Complex and the Islamic Neo-Jihadists are both dominators. If one opposes a dominator with military force, you are falling into his trap of limited perception, and becoming locked in his narrow range of actions and ideas.

 

In some sense, at least... in the present pattern, they create one another, or more accurately speaking....they require one another to exist.

 

More and more I have begun to think that such things are part of the Artifical Reality. It really has nothing to do with my ongoing experience of existing, and in being so are not worthwhile foci of my attention.

 

It seems to be a hard habit to break, however.

 

Hi Grendel,

 

I wish I could keep my mind from wandering into the political realm (artha levels) but I don't think I would call it Artificial Reality when it has so much impact on our day to day lives -even if our conscious selves are not giving it any mind whatsoever...Real people suffer in real ways over such realities even if they are based on distortions and lies. So - I guess I don't know what you mean by AR...

For the cogniscent and aware folks who try to live in the Dharmha, (Bums or not) to not be paying attention or to somehow place ourselves "above and beyond" our Artha and Kharmic levels of reality is denying part of our shared humanity.

I think it is also what the MIC elite counts on to keep its grip on power.

Attention can be paid to these things without lessening our questing for spiritual growth. And even the Dalai Lama, or it may be Particularly the DL has to spend some time and energies on those levels to keep more harm from coming to his people...

Staying in balance or in our own Tao should enclude a working sense of how the interactions between nations and cultures play into our shared reality, as well as the interplay of forces within ourselves.

Tactics are another matter. If we know an entity is trying to undermine our wellbeing for the sake of its own base wants and propensities I will take a warrior's stance to deter that effort against me. If the onslaught keeps coming I am ready to defend myself and stop the attack. This is a horrid part of our existance and passive resistance can work in many situations but some dark forces will always exist in the balance of life, and I believe they need to be exposed and countered.

Some of our worlds' most wonderful civilizations and cultures were lost to invaders that had no regard for the spiritual qualities of the people they subjected to distruction and slavery.

We may be entering an aquarian age in the near future but these are dark times for our world and ignoring this won't make it "go away"...

[thelerner]

I hear you Grendel. I just bought a book called 'Pronoia'. Its subtittle is, 'The answer to the paranoia of our times'. In part it speaks of the hundred of incredible miraculous things that happen every day, that are considered so common we don't appreciate them.

 

Instead we watch a nasty concentration of the worst things going on amongst Billions of people. For entertainment we watch(on TV) murder, rape and gross materialism thousands of times over and over.

 

The first part of waking up is strong coffee, but the second is putting our focus into the reality at hand. If that focus is a misery 6,000 miles away or a story line of what our president may or may not be doing, we're missing the richness of the people in our lives. Conditioning ourselves to impotence instead of acting on things we can change.

 

 

Ofcourse for the sake of discussion; Bush is a dyslexic, easily manipulated idiot.- I can't believe I voted for him.

 

Michael

[Grendel]

I have seen the book you refer to thelerner, but have not read it, but you are right on the money.

 

I use the term Artifical Reality, but maybe it would be more accurate to say Artificed Reality, it is a package set of perceptions and desiderata that we are fed in order to control how we see things and what we see as significant elements in 'our' world. But unless you are personally encountering some of these elements, then they aren't truly part of your unfolding personal experience.

 

The mass media is not a natural phenomenon, they are crafted and limited, and counting on them to define what

'world' you inhabit will mislead you into being focused on something that ultimately doesn't really exist .... crafted perceptions.

 

Direct, personal growth isn't acheived by focusing on the international events that your goverment or the owners of a few multinational meme marketing companies want to present to you, it is in noticing what occurs in the interface between your experience of existence and the infinite manifestations of the Tao that occur around you.

 

While it may be possible for the Tao to speak to us through the television, I doubt it happens very often.

 

It's not about passivity, it's about being centered in yourself, not what those that rule think you should be centered on. There are many situations that demand action, and even violence can be neccesary, but it is difficult to imagine what could lead a seeker of the Way to become involved in the ongoing pissing contests between opposing groups of militant, authoritarian monotheists.

 

The militant neo-jihadists are so extreme and violent because their ideology has failed, their people wouldn't accept it, so they became more radical and their ranks filled with the most violent and fanatical. Our ruling elites are deeply involved with the Saudi Arabian monarchy, which funds the radical imams who teach the New Jihad to disgruntled and angry young men. They do this in order to focus their revolutionary ire on some other target than themselves. Since the ruling elites make a great deal of money off of their relationship with the Saudis for both oil and weapons sales, AND having a never-ending war with an ephemeral enemy that by definition can never be defeated, the alchemy of the situation allows for military-industrial complexes wet dream - The Forever War.

 

On top of that it has a great deal to do with the fact that demand for oil has continued to increase at a near unprecedented rate, but supply is not increasing .... it is declining. This means that the US must secure control of supplies of oil or face the collapse of it's way of life. Given that supplies are not increasing and demand from the EU, China and India are rapidly outpacing our own, that means we must take oil from someone else.

 

Now, it took me a lot of reflecting and examing to put all that together....and it's accurate.

 

What good does any of that do me? Does any of that affect how my day will unfold tommorow? Will it help me to be aware of how I make my life more difficult every day?...Does knowing any of those things lead me to deeper understanding of the unfolding manifestations of the Tao in my daily life?

 

I don't think so. It scatters my focus, and especially leads me to feel emotions that have no real target, my anxiety for instance would be generated by an abstract threat some guy on television is telling me about, and therefore an anxiety I cannot take any direct action to rectify.

 

I would have been better off, spending that energy and attention, if I truly seek to live in harmony with the Tao, paying attention to how I walk ...or why I eat what I eat...or any number of things that seem mundane or frivilous in comparison to all the big, serious world events that the media and goverment insist I must be concerned with, but they have a great deal more to do with my ongoing experience of existence than the New Crusade against the Infidel, whoevers infidel it might be.

 

Sorry this is so rambling, I just woke up.

 

Take care everyone.

 

And, of course, he's an easily manipulated idiot, why do you think they chose him as the front man?

 

and he is so patriotic and concerned about Amehricuh, because when a goverment is in trouble, loyal ministers will appear.

[Wayfarer64]

Hi all-

 

Most of my adult life I have not owned a TV nor a car. Right now I own a TV but do not have cable -which means I get NO TV in Comcast-dominated central NJ- the reception is useless even if I wanted it which I do not.

-If i find any "down time" to relax at home I play tapes mostly of old movies...

Soon my movie watching will be CD dominated and the old tape playing TV will be used to watch home-movies & that will be the end of any TV-watching like activity in my home.

My choice to isolate myself from the commercialized crap does not keep me from being concerned with the state of my larger home and life's joy-this global entity Earth! Earth as house-hold.

I am part of this world and concern myself with its collective growth toward the light as much as with my own personal growth.

If we loose the environment and culture that allows me these freedoms to hike the mountains surf the seas and swim the rivers and lakes I do not think my inner being will remain a happy-camper for long. I guess I can adapt to a cell in a monastary and become a being of only my internal struggle for enlightenment -but being alive and out in the world is much too precious a joy for me to deny - as of this week...

I am willing to stand as a warrior for what I believe is important in the greater sphere surrounding my life force and temporal self.

Life may be lived on many levels. I wish to explore all of these levels and give them each my best effort to understand them- one and all.

Some say... " What ya don't know can't hurt you."..

I disagree. - What you don't know can mess ya up bad- Not all surprises are happy ones-

I say ... " What you don't know cant Help you"!

[Peregrino]

Wow--this discussion is taking a really interesting turn!

 

To clarify: I meant to say that many Western men raised almost exclusively by women--and often lacking in positive male role models--frequently assume (*an unwarranted*) moral inferiority to women because of messages they've had drilled through their heads about male pathology and irresponsibility, although of course there are many who compensate by turning to the shadow side of extreme machismo to make up for a lack of healthy male mentoring (e.g. gang culture).

 

I wasn't implying any kind of homophobia--the homophobia of Islamic theocracies is precisely the kind of thing I think Westerners must resist. History is full of men who took on the more assertive and rigorous virtues while have limited or nil sexual interest in women.

 

This might sound flip, but I've just started thinking about other non-militaristic possibilities for securing democracy. We can't turn Islamic extremists into non-dualistic meditators overnight, but how about dumping planeloads and planeloads of magic mushrooms all over the most fundamentalist zones? I'm half way serious on that one . . . I remember reading about an Allied intelligence plan to dump lots of pornography on Hitler's compound. Who knows--maybe it had an effect!

 

One more thing--I certainly don't consider the US "soft" on military matters--if anything, a lot of people either in the military or who make military decisions seem to be more taken by the "shadow" side of masculinity I mentioned above, ranging from soldiers who massacre civilians to chickenhawk presidents compensating for never putting themselves on the line for wars they supported in their youth.

 

*In Europe* on the other hand, the situation tends to run towards the opposite extreme, especially in Western Europe. There really does seem to be a common attitude of "let's not respond to violence with violence or we might end up even worse off." Sorry, that attitude didn't do any good the last time the continent was massively threatened.

 

By the way, if the shit hits really hits the fan, I'm all for qualified women taking up arms. A majority might not qualify for ground combat, but some studies seem to indicate that women make better snipers or tank operators . . . That way they don't need to have men holding it over them that only male protection keeps them from living under sharia.

 

Then again, maybe the magic mushrooms will do the trick . . .

[Wayfarer64]

Dosing the leaders of millateristic collectives is a great idea,. The first time I took LSD -in the early 70's I kept saying we gotta get Nixon some of this shit! The main trouble with the plan is that you'll end up with a bunch of Becoming-enlightened donkeys, chickens, wildlife and perhaps a few goats may catch the groove but the would-be targets aren't gonna bite the bait. The shrooms need to be ground up into their hummus or some-such method to get the stuff ingested... Lets work it out to send them a "care package" and maybe a box of "happy pass-over" banners or 4th of July fire-works marked -open at Christmas...to make them laugh at their own folly once they find that inner-space all lit up!

But plane-loads & plane-loads of shrooms sounds like a big operation - just creating such a stash may have cosmic repercussions...Almost militeristic in its scale anyway...Where's Ike when we need him? There was a general who could move what was available to where it was required.

Just let the Muslems try to bring Sharia to the west -can you see the balls flying? No freakin' way! we will have to hold back the women-folk with planeloads and planeloads of valium to keep them from unmanning the whole of Islam...In fact what the hell are we worried about? The world is moving in the other direction -the old ways are going away and the new is on the way in - this is inevitable....Islam is having its last fling at power. The new energy source will be found and the sharia-peddlers are to be the fodder of folk tales told round synthetic camp-fires in hologram-projected forests of Disney's Camp-out Kingdom in the great 55th United State of Irkusk.

Edited September 18, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[Peregrino]

I can personally verify that psilocybin goes great with hummus! In many Muslim countries, the disaffected youth are turning to drugs quite knowingly on their own, but I agree that the elite/more fanatical would need rather more creative methods to become turned on.

 

Your optimism is inspiring, Way. Maybe with the passing of time I'm becoming more alarmist on these issues. I can remember my grandparents going on about how the West was on the verge of being overrun by communism, but I never really worried about any kind of *Red Dawn* scenario, though I do remember an ongoing fear of nuclear annihilation.

 

Again, though, I have to reiterate that the situation is very different in Europe than the US. Most European countries have negative birth rates and absolutely depend on immigration to keep the system going. I want to make it clear that I'm not anti-immigrant, but I think the model of education has to be far more assimilationist in the midst of so many imams preaching "conquest of the West through our women's wombs." (That's not just a recently stated strategy, it goes back at least to the 70s, when an Algerian president said that Islam would conquer the West precisely by outbreeding.) With luck, the coming generations of Islamo-Europeans will tell the imams to stick it and will continue enjoying the kinds of things that make Europe great (greater social safety net and less puritanism than the US, for starters). If Islamo-European women adopt even a moderate form of feminism, the balance could stay stable in favor of liberal and secular democracy. . .

 

But then, who can really predict with assurance which way the memes will go? I can't predict for sure that Islamic men and women in Europe will really opt to take on more liberal/secular ways while Europe continues to be a prime recruiting ground for jihadists. There are far more European-born jihadists than American ones. The ideology is that strongly rooted here already . . . History is full of misguided doom-and-gloom prophesying, but there are also plenty of instances of false confidence leading to total collapse and ensuing dark ages.

 

Anyway, I'm really enjoying this discussion, and want to look into the "Pronoia" book that Thelerner mentioned earlier.

[Wayfarer64]

Greetings & once again into the breach-

 

I thought that was a typo for PAranoia- which is it?

 

I know you are right about the birthrates falling and the influx of middle-eastern, African and Asian peoples growing, but I see no great problem with the west being easternized to some extent -AS LONG AS we can keep the freedoms and scientific inquiry alive and well...Fundamentalists of any ilk will reduce open-minded discourse and be problematic, so we need to curtail back-lash as well as fullfronatal assault on our freedoms and what the hell am I so optumistic about? YIKERS! (Still I do believe we are trending toward the light)...

These are dark times as I've stated in other threads & we must be willing to stand up for our freedoms and secular social structures. That these are dark and theocratic times- is interesting, It would appear that there is a struggle going on for the handle of the spiritual direction our world will take .

I concider myself a very spiritualy oriented man but I do not want ant sort of theocratic regime to dictate how I or my fellow humans can live... Those guys are all in a narrow mind-set that is basically right/wrong and that ain't the Taoist way I have come to admire and cherish for my own questing to develop...

The French, Germans indeed all of the old Europe are on the front line of this situation. The struggle for the direction may teeter on what pride of their culture the French and Germans can muster. This IS a strong part of the social framework and may be enough to instill some vigor into their action alas as WWII moved them to fear such mind-sets the negative traits you mention may come to the fore.

The saddest part is that to counter the trend away from the Values we would wish to preserve the values we wish to leave behind will be screamed in the air as the reason to fight the change. Not a pretty picture. Perhaps it will be the women who save the situation by demanding changes within the changes.