to those who hate muslims

[Bubbles]

Poll after poll suggests that about 48% of Americans disagree, and believe that Moderates (those who play pick-n-choose with scriptures) are the fake Christians. Poll after poll suggest that 86% of Americans believe in a God meme.

 

Of course, each of us is the fake-someone in the eye of another. As long as religions are only ways to aggregate, identify, and manage fears, there will be scapegoats for the followers to convert their fears into hatred of another one, and this is endless.In this account, religions are part of mainstream socialization.

 

But when it comes to the embodiment of the sacred/holy as the numinous; or to the attainment of the full potential of human spirit, it is as difficult as it is rare.

[Vmarco]

 

bottom line, fundamentalism stops a mind from working.

 

Where knowledge ends, religion begins." -Benjamin Disraeli

 

"The constant assertion of belief is an indication of fear." J Krishnamurti

 

"It is always better to have no ideas than false ones; to believe nothing, than to believe what is wrong." Thomas Jefferson

 

"When people say 'I have faith', what they really mean is 'I don't want to know the truth'." Nietzsche

 

"Belief is an obsolete Aristotelian category" -Dr. Jack Sarfatti

 

"The way is not in the sky. The way is in the heart." Buddha

[Marblehead]

"I don't know that those who don't believe in God should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." George HW Bush, August 27, 1987

 

This is bullshit. I served my country for twenty years in the Army and there were no gods involved in what I was doing.

 

This is one nation of the people - all the people.

 

At least that is the way it is supposed to be. Things change. I would not serve in the military today even if I could.

[Marblehead]

"Belief is an obsolete Aristotelian category" -Dr. Jack Sarfatti

 

The word "belief" still serves a useful function. "It is my belief ..." is the same as saying that such and such is my understanding or it is my opinion. The word "belief" need not be attached to religion. I use the word often and I am an Atheist (and a Nietzschian).

 

"To have faith ..." is a totally different concept.

[Everything]

The word "belief" still serves a useful function. "It is my belief ..." is the same as saying that such and such is my understanding or it is my opinion. The word "belief" need not be attached to religion. I use the word often and I am an Atheist (and a Nietzschian).

 

"To have faith ..." is a totally different concept.

Faith is said to be a believe of which there is no proof. Since there is never any proof for any believe to last eternally, faith and believes are equal from that point of view.

 

Yet, faith is somewhat diffrent. Faith is always a good believe, and a bad believe is never faith.

 

Thus, the word "bad faith" simply implies a lack of good believes, or a lack in strength of your good believes. And good faith may refer to the strength of your good believes. People who are said to have good faith have the ability to draw from their positive believes the positive emotions, which naturally attract good thoughts and actions into their lifes. These positive believes gathered over the years can be equally used to bring about loving emotions to be shared with others during moments of hardship.

 

Yet, I cannot exactly distinguish the diffrence between a bad or good believe. Things really blur out for me on that one. I cannot say without a context. Just like mathematics does not exist when you do not distinguish 0 and 1. I think that every believe has good and bad in it, it is just a matter of which one is more present or has more weight to the viewer.

Perhaps faith and good believes are the same thing as wisdom. The abstract pieces of knowledge gathered over many years. These can be broadly applied and has many truths to them. Most of these truths are life enhancing. However, some people may have totally diffrent opinions on what is wise and what is not. The idea that the word faith is similar to the word wisdom is thus nothing more then an interesting fact to hold in the back of your mind.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Hi Everything,

 

Yes, I agree that faith is a belief without the need for proof.

 

But in my usage, a belief is an understanding with enough supporting evidence to consider it a quasi-fact.

 

But I would argue against suggesting that faith and wisdom are similar concepts. In fact, I would probably argue that they were polar opposites.

[Everything]

This is bullshit. I served my country for twenty years in the Army and there were no gods involved in what I was doing.

 

This is one nation of the people - all the people.

 

At least that is the way it is supposed to be. Things change. I would not serve in the military today even if I could.

Things change, indeed... People relied heavily on agressiveness. The room for agressiveness on our planet is slowly shrinking more and more, to a point where one agressive act will mean the end of the planet as we know it. Technology is growing fast, and we need to grow responsibility to match its powers.

 

The ancient Egyptians were for centuries a very peaceful, basicly gentle people. They were safe in their isolated Nile Valley from any potential enemies; these enemies were held at bay by the surrounding desert and by the Mediterranean Sea to the North. They were able to build a remarkably stable society. They believed in the harmony of all things, in a cosmos ordered by Ma'at. Then around 1800 B.C.E they were invaded trough the Nile delta by bands of fierce Semitic tribes, the Hyskos. These Hyskos warriors had horses and chariots--in those days, efficient and devastating war machines. The Egyptians, unaccustomed to such agressiveness, were pushovers. The Hyskos eventually took over most of Egypt and ruled it with an iron hand. When the gentleness of the Eqyptians ended, did they retake all of Egypt and conquered even further to spread by force. Giving us the Egyptian culture today, having survived trough all this time and still in the minds of many. I wonder how Hyskos altered the culture by destroying the peaceful way of living of their original Egyptians.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Everything

[Everything]

Hi Everything,

 

Yes, I agree that faith is a belief without the need for proof.

 

But in my usage, a belief is an understanding with enough supporting evidence to consider it a quasi-fact.

 

But I would argue against suggesting that faith and wisdom are similar concepts. In fact, I would probably argue that they were polar opposites.

Hello

 

That sounds better then my explanation actually. A believe being an idea upon which more facts are glued that relate to the idea and support it. Then, faith can be the beginning of a new idea, upon which no other ideas are attached yet, but can be found and sought. Faith here is something totally diffrent from wisdom.

 

I always wondered about the diffrence between faith and believe. I am pretty content with this view, though. Thanks

Edited August 27, 2011 by Everything

[Vmarco]

[Marblehead]

Hi Vmarco,

 

All valid what you said based on my understanding.

 

I want to point out that, even though I am an Atheist, I have no problem with anyone who follows a religion based on compassion and getting along with their fellow people regardless of their religion.

 

Religion does play an important role in the life of many people. That's fine if that is their choice. I love that word "choice".

 

I still believe it is important to have very strict separation of Church and State. And this applies to all aspects of government including and especially public schools.

 

Sad that man has to constantly think of new ways to discriminate against those who are not like-minded.

 

People are still killing each other simply because they believe in a different god.

 

But at least they have stopped burning witches, in the most part.

[on the path]

Hi Vmarco,

 

All valid what you said based on my understanding.

 

I want to point out that, even though I am an Atheist, I have no problem with anyone who follows a religion based on compassion and getting along with their fellow people regardless of their religion.

 

Religion does play an important role in the life of many people. That's fine if that is their choice. I love that word "choice".

 

I still believe it is important to have very strict separation of Church and State. And this applies to all aspects of government including and especially public schools.

 

Sad that man has to constantly think of new ways to discriminate against those who are not like-minded.

 

People are still killing each other simply because they believe in a different god.

 

But at least they have stopped burning witches, in the most part.

 

I think the trouble with religion is exactly what has been stated in a lot of these posts. No one agrees as to what faith or belief is right, there are so many rules and different perspectives that view the world differently. I think this is the great difficulty in our modern world. That's why I believe in the Dao and Immortals, but I don't beleive in one single God or one single path. For me the path is ever flowing, ever changing, like the great creativity of life. Kindness and morality are human inventions and human reactions to life's ups and downs they are not necessarily in keeping with the Dao. This is what I believe. I don't think the Dao has any room for religion, because otherwise everything would be flowing naturally, whereas we are intent on destroying our landscape, other life and ourselves. What would Lao Tzu say!!!

[Marblehead]

I think the trouble with religion is exactly what has been stated in a lot of these posts. No one agrees as to what faith or belief is right, there are so many rules and different perspectives that view the world differently. I think this is the great difficulty in our modern world. That's why I believe in the Dao and Immortals, but I don't beleive in one single God or one single path. For me the path is ever flowing, ever changing, like the great creativity of life. Kindness and morality are human inventions and human reactions to life's ups and downs they are not necessarily in keeping with the Dao. This is what I believe. I don't think the Dao has any room for religion, because otherwise everything would be flowing naturally, whereas we are intent on destroying our landscape, other life and ourselves. What would Lao Tzu say!!!

 

Lao Tzu would probably say, "See?! I told you!"

 

Yes, I can understand many people's need for a god or gods. It gives them something to believe in when their externals are so chaotic - gives them a secure based to stand on.

 

But I agree. There is no need for gods or immortals in Taoism. But then, there is no valid reason to exclude them as both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu spoke of them.

 

Where I have my problem with religion is when it becomes institutionalized and it begins dictating how the people should think and live their life.

[Everything]

I think the trouble with religion is exactly what has been stated in a lot of these posts. No one agrees as to what faith or belief is right, there are so many rules and different perspectives that view the world differently. I think this is the great difficulty in our modern world. That's why I believe in the Dao and Immortals, but I don't beleive in one single God or one single path. For me the path is ever flowing, ever changing, like the great creativity of life. Kindness and morality are human inventions and human reactions to life's ups and downs they are not necessarily in keeping with the Dao. This is what I believe. I don't think the Dao has any room for religion, because otherwise everything would be flowing naturally, whereas we are intent on destroying our landscape, other life and ourselves. What would Lao Tzu say!!!

That is not the problem of the religion, but the problem of the humans.

 

When you actually read all holy texts, study mythology, read about ancient cultures, it becomes obvious that everyone is saying same stuff in diffrent words.

 

The qu'ran even mentions that people who follow the bible can be similar minded to a muslim and of an equal. The qu'ran mentions that it is one way describing the religion, while the bible is another way of describing that same wisdom. For it say that there many books of wisdom like the qu'ran that go by diffrent names. Which one is the best? That is nkt something that the muslim faith is to have an opinion about. You must do your own research on that. When I read Tao te Ching, I saw allot of similarites with other religions who speak of similar wisdom. Tao te Ching, however, thrives in its wisdom of makimg decisions, reaching high consciousness, so that the people may govern them selves. While the islam is all about doing couragious act in the name of love, so that fear does not rule the people. All wisdom, survived for so long, is wisdom. We just have to take best from all sides. The qu'ran and bible were all to be remembered by word of mouth, using ancient mnemonist techniques. People devoted their lives to become a living bible in order to bring forth this book. The thing that fascinates me is the small amount of text in Tao te Ching. It is simply genius to extract only the wisest of all words to keep the entire text short. With our current hasty societies this is great.

 

The qu'ran only mentions that the people of israel were refusing to believe in a god. That they ignored the messages send to them by the islam and that they desired proof for god first, even though the muslim have always done good towards Israel. I personally cannot judge on jewish texts, nor on the jewish people in Israel. You have to do that yourself.

One person once told me that the jewish religion revolves around succes, but I do not know that, so I might look into it one time. There is just so much to look into these days

The fact that the qu'ran text reveals so much of about the jewish religion, does not mean that it advocates to kill these jewish people, nor hate them. It reveals the truth, that we must remaim couragious, faithful of love and never do harm to even the biggest of enemies.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Everything

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

[Marblehead]

The problem in today's America is politicians putting their faith-based agendas before their oath to uphold the Constitution. That is not Tao-like.

 

V

 

Yep. And today we are seeing only the beginning of the movement. Just look to the Republican Party in the US today and who will be running for president.

 

We ain't seen nothin' yet compared to what is to come.

[on the path]

That is not the problem of the religion, but the problem of the humans.

 

When you actually read all holy texts, study mythology, read about ancient cultures, it becomes obvious that everyone is saying same stuff in diffrent words.

 

The qu'ran even mentions that people who follow the bible can be similar minded to a muslim and of an equal. The qu'ran mentions that it is one way describing the religion, while the bible is another way of describing that same wisdom. For it say that there many books of wisdom like the qu'ran that go by diffrent names. Which one is the best? That is nkt something that the muslim faith is to have an opinion about. You must do your own research on that. When I read Tao te Ching, I saw allot of similarites with other religions who speak of similar wisdom. Tao te Ching, however, thrives in its wisdom of makimg decisions, reaching high consciousness, so that the people may govern them selves. While the islam is all about doing couragious act in the name of love, so that fear does not rule the people. All wisdom, survived for so long, is wisdom. We just have to take best from all sides. The qu'ran and bible were all to be remembered by word of mouth, using ancient mnemonist techniques. People devoted their lives to become a living bible in order to bring forth this book. The thing that fascinates me is the small amount of text in Tao te Ching. It is simply genius to extract only the wisest of all words to keep the entire text short. With our current hasty societies this is great.

 

The qu'ran only mentions that the people of israel were refusing to believe in a god. That they ignored the messages send to them by the islam and that they desired proof for god first, even though the muslim have always done good towards Israel. I personally cannot judge on jewish texts, nor on the jewish people in Israel. You have to do that yourself.

One person once told me that the jewish religion revolves around succes, but I do not know that, so I might look into it one time. There is just so much to look into these days

The fact that the qu'ran text reveals so much of about the jewish religion, does not mean that it advocates to kill these jewish people, nor hate them. It reveals the truth, that we must remaim couragious, faithful of love and never do harm to even the biggest of enemies.

 

Well I do believe that if you were to ask a lot of religious people from many different faiths about their attitudes towards the environment, towards their fellow beings and towards other life you may be surprised at how low their real spiritual values are in seeing life equally. Without seeing life equally how can one treasure all life and follow the natural way? How can one's actions be right if your religion thinks that animals are there for you to use and abuse? People who have no religion, care for the world and can have much better perspectives than religious people as well as having worse. But if your belief system tells you that all other life is not as valued as human life where are we going to end up? Exactly where we are now!

I believe people and religion are the problem. There are some absolutely fantastic people who are not the least religious, there are some absolutely fantastic people who are spiritual. But I really haven't met any fantastic religious people who are not prejudice against others who are not of their religion. The JW's are a case to mention. Full of silly restrictive rules and prejudices, even down to whether a man should wear a beard or not. And yet their attitudes are taken up by millions of people around the world. JW's are not supposed to mix with any other religion or non religious people, only with their own kind. It is these such attitudes that one does very easily find in all sorts of spiritual paths that are their down fall and so the natural way is lost on rules and prejudice. I think people should follow natural law and give religion the boot!!!!

[Marblehead]

I think people should follow natural law and give religion the boot!!!!

 

Yeah! Let's force them all to become Philosophical Taoists!!!

 

(Sorry. Couldn't help myself.)

[Vmarco]

[Marblehead]

[on the path]

[on the path]

Okay. Let's force everyone to give up the Gregorian calendar while we are at it.

 

Actually, I acknowledge all that you presented above and basically agree with it.

 

One problem. I think it is already too late. The Churches and Dictators of the world kept the people ignorant for far too long and recently, when humanity finally began to read and write the powerful of the world have begun a dumbing-down of the people with all their lies and half-truths.

 

Me thinks it is too late. But then, there is nothing wrong with trying to wake the people to what is really going on. Maybe someone will listen.

 

Hey, just look what Christianity did to the Roman empire.

 

What an uphill struggle!!!

[Marblehead]

What an uphill struggle!!!

 

Well, you can't say there are no opportunities to excel.

[Vmarco]

Edited August 27, 2011 by Vmarco

[The Way Is Virtue]

Edited August 27, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue