to those who hate muslims

[on the path]

Hi Shaman Flowing Hands / otp. Blaming religion for the world's problems seems quite short sighted to me. Your words above seems strange since your own beliefs or point of view apparently involve deities or immortals, etc., and adherence to a particular point of view, which is also a form of religion. Specific religious or other strong beliefs such as atheism or various strong political viewpoints are clearly not the root cause of our world problems, although blind adherence to these sorts of belief systems to the point of needing to reject or put down and attack all else is certainly a symptom of a deeper underlying problem in people. Governments in the former communist Russia or in communist China which do not base their decisions and actions on a religious viewpoint have been involved in all sorts of atrocities and causing much harm to the environment, etc., as well, as we all know. So what is the real root of the problem?

 

It seems clear to me that human nature is at the real root of the problem. Intolerance, ignorance, hatred, and extremism is a problem that can be found all around the world, regardless of whether people are religious, atheists, or of some strong political or other strong beliefs. Shaman Flowing Hands, it appears that you fail to see that you are doing pretty much exactly here as those whom you attack above. You take the view that your religious point of view is the best and right above all other religious or non religious views, and you direct blame and intolerance towards others with different beliefs and points of view, and imply that if everyone would only convert to your particular religious point of view that the world would suddenly become all roses. You seem to believe that human nature would suddenly be nullified and the world would suddenly be filled with peace and love and tolerance and respect for all others points of view and beliefs.

 

This is no different than a fanatical religious person blaming other specific religions and atheists for the world's problems, or atheists blaming religious groups, or one fanatical political group blaming all their country's or the world's problems on other political groups, etc. etc. Again, the root of the problem is clearly people's apparent innate tendency towards intolerance, self-righteousness, hatred, greed, etc. Blaming only specific groups for these human tendencies while failing to see the same tendencies in our self and people of all different persuasions is the real root of the problem, in my opinion. Yes, different people show different degrees towards this tendency, but both the milder forms and the more extreme forms of this sort of thing seems to be found equally all around the world. We all have strong beliefs of one sort or another and we all have faults of various kinds, whether we might see it in our self or not. This is the reality.

 

If we can realize these same tendencies in our self and begin to understand why they occur, we can at least stop blaming others and start working on improving our self. We may not be able to easily solve the world's problems and human nature is still human nature, but we can at least each work on our self towards each of us becoming more tolerant and understanding and respectful towards all others in this world. I think this may well go a lot further towards easing tensions between different groups of all different persuasions around the world than the wide display of intolerance and hatred and the laying of blame on others that is now rampant around the world. By the way, many religious writings around the world seem to have this concept that we must work on improving our self and blaming and judging others is not helpful. I am not at all denying that there are some very ugly things that go on all over this world, but if we look at the big picture we can see that problem is wide spread all over the world, and it has been this way all throughout history, no matter what the specific views and beliefs were at any given point in time. The exact outward form it takes may change but human nature remains human nature. Peace, resepct, and tolerance starts within. Know thyself.

 

Hi twiv,

 

Cyber bullying is not a great thing to do. If you read my post about Immortals you will see that if anyone, I would believe in Huang Lao Xian Shi, as I have had the great honor in receiving his teachings through Master Yoon Kin Tong. Yoon Kin Tong had lots of other students as well as me, although I was his last. Flowing Hands believes in different Immortal Masters to me, do you equate that yet!!? Flowing Hands is another Shaman, I was the student of another shaman, like many people, I am very interested in shamanism, because my teachings come from a shaman directly from Huang Lao Xian shi. So get your facts right and get off my back ok!

You are entitled to your opinion just as I am, that doesn't make you more right and me wrong does it?? Or are you the new enlightened one who will solve all the worlds problems with your rendition of 'virtue'? I read your post on virtue, most interesting especially in the light of what you've been saying here. You have your point of view I have mine we will agree to differ. I don't beleive you understand what you are talking about, human perspectives comes from all areas, particularly culture and religion, as the posts earlier show religion influences our lives even if we do not want it to or whether be believe in religion or not. Perhaps you could open your eyes and see more clearly than what you have seen already. What you have stated has cultural and religious undertones that you have been taught as a child and you have not even noticed them, but just continued in a way that you thought was right. So whether you like it or not, religion touches all of our lives and influences our perspectives and causes us to think and to act in a way that if we would not have, if that religion wasn't stuffed into us when we are at school etc. by our society, by our parents etc. then we may have a different view of the world. It is the influence of human nature at its very core that needs to change, which very much includes religious perspectives in my opinion because we are surrounded by them. I am not religious in the accepted sense although I do believe that Immortals exist, I couldn't be a shaman, even though I tried once, its not for everyone. People go to the temples sometimes every week and try but don't get accepted. It is a very difficult thing to do and be so I have come to understand, after many many years of training.

 

If there are any moderators out there reading this, can you get this guy sorted he's becoming an assumptive pain in the arse!!

[The Way Is Virtue]

Hi twiv,

 

Cyber bullying is not a great thing to do. If you read my post about Immortals you will see that if anyone, I would believe in Huang Lao Xian Shi, as I have had the great honor in receiving his teachings through Master Yoon Kin Tong. Yoon Kin Tong had lots of other students as well as me, although I was his last. Flowing Hands believes in different Immortal Masters to me, do you equate that yet!!? Flowing Hands is another Shaman, I was the student of another shaman, like many people, I am very interested in shamanism, because my teachings come from a shaman directly from Huang Lao Xian shi. So get your facts right and get off my back ok!

You are entitled to your opinion just as I am, that doesn't make you more right and me wrong does it?? Or are you the new enlightened one who will solve all the worlds problems with your rendition of 'virtue'? I read your post on virtue, most interesting especially in the light of what you've been saying here. You have your point of view I have mine we will agree to differ. I don't beleive you understand what you are talking about, human perspectives comes from all areas, particularly culture and religion, as the posts earlier show religion influences our lives even if we do not want it to or whether be believe in religion or not. Perhaps you could open your eyes and see more clearly than what you have seen already. What you have stated has cultural and religious undertones that you have been taught as a child and you have not even noticed them, but just continued in a way that you thought was right. So whether you like it or not, religion touches all of our lives and influences our perspectives and causes us to think and to act in a way that if we would not have, if that religion wasn't stuffed into us when we are at school etc. by our society, by our parents etc. then we may have a different view of the world. It is the influence of human nature at its very core that needs to change, which very much includes religious perspectives in my opinion because we are surrounded by them. I am not religious in the accepted sense although I do believe that Immortals exist, I couldn't be a shaman, even though I tried once, its not for everyone. People go to the temples sometimes every week and try but don't get accepted. It is a very difficult thing to do and be so I have come to understand, after many many years of training.

 

If there are any moderators out there reading this, can you get this guy sorted he's becoming an assumptive pain in the arse!!

 

otp / Shaman Flowing Hands, I don't want to get this thread too far off track but I think it is only fair that people should be aware that you have been promoting shaman flowing hands and the shaman flowing hands website and writings and shaman flowing hands translation of the Dao De Ching here as possibly the 'most important Taoist of modern times' and of 'high import to westerners' and that sort of thing as if he was someone other than yourself, but as you know I stumbled across information that indicates pretty strongly that you and person who put up the shaman flowing hands website are actually the same person. Unless of course you can explain why the person who has been promoting shaman flowing hands in this forum and another Daoist web forum in exactly the same way happens to have the exact same first and last name and postal code as the person who registered shaman flowing hands web domain name? Those are the facts. Deny and attack if you must, but those are the facts. If there is an explanation, I haven't heard it. You seem to only want to attack instead. That says a lot.

 

The rest that I wrote regarding intolerance and human nature is my point of view and I have expressed it as my point of view. I think that what I have said regarding intolerance and human nature has some sound basis, so I think it is at least worth consideration.

 

Best wishes...

Edited August 27, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Marblehead]

Move over Taliban,...the American Christocrat's are coming.

 

V

 

That is the thing I would fear most. My country to be involved in a religious war. I fear that my country would consider me an enemy.

[Marblehead]

 

The rest that I wrote regarding intolerance and human nature is my point of view and I have expressed it as my point of view. I think that what I have said regarding intolerance and human nature has some sound basis, so I think it is at least worth consideration.

 

Best wishes...

 

No, we wouldn't want to get too far astray from the thread topic which was, from the opening post, that Muslims are not all bad people.

 

Of course, the discussion went to the discussion of religions' role in the world and the suggestion was made that perhaps there would be less conflict if there were no religions.

 

Now, true, religion is not the only cause of conflict in the world. Man's greed is a pretty strong player. Maybe greed has done more harm than has religion. Afterall, much of the control aspects of religion are based in greed.

 

The human animal is what it is. Many of us are constantly looking for way to control and take advantage of others. Until this mentality stops there will continue to be conflict. And this is not restricted to any nationality or religion. It just is.

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

 

Now, true, religion is not the only cause of conflict in the world. Man's greed is a pretty strong player. Maybe greed has done more harm than has religion. Afterall, much of the control aspects of religion are based in greed.

 

 

 

True Religion,...is an oxymoron.

 

V

[The Way Is Virtue]

No, we wouldn't want to get too far astray from the thread topic which was, from the opening post, that Muslims are not all bad people.

Of course, the discussion went to the discussion of religions' role in the world and the suggestion was made that perhaps there would be less conflict if there were no religions.

 

HI Marblehead. Yeah, I am aware of how the topic started out, but I also saw at least one person trying to take it in a different direction which is what I was responding to.

 

Now, true, religion is not the only cause of conflict in the world. Man's greed is a pretty strong player. Maybe greed has done more harm than has religion. Afterall, much of the control aspects of religion are based in greed.

 

The human animal is what it is. Many of us are constantly looking for way to control and take advantage of others. Until this mentality stops there will continue to be conflict. And this is not restricted to any nationality or religion. It just is.

 

I think we agree for the most part but I would add that I think it is not just greed and a need for control that is behind it all however. Self-righteousness, ignorance, and intolerance and hatred and fear of that which is different and other such factors play a big role as well. This certainly does seem to occur whether religion has been involved or not. It is just that because religion has sometimes played a role that it is singled out by some. Communist Russia, Communist China, and Nazi Germany are all fairly recent examples of how extreme intolerance and terrible atrocities can occur even when religion is not the main driving factor, and the rise of the Roman empire and all that went along with it is an example in the past that was not mainly driven by religion. People may tend to overlook these sorts of things when they are just looking for ways to try to rationalize their disdain for religion, but there are many examples in history where massive intolerance and atrocities have been rampant and religion hasn't been the main driving factor. Religion has always played an important role in many cultures so it is hard to completely remove it from anything in history, but it clearly has not always been the main driving factor behind intolerance and war. Anyway, I think that about sums it up for me on this topic. Tolerance and compassion starts with each and every one of us regardless of our personal beliefs and views.

Best wishes...

[The Way Is Virtue]

[Vmarco]

[Marblehead]

True Religion,...is an oxymoron.

 

V

 

Hey you!!! There was a comma after true. Don't confuse me with someone else. Hehehe.

 

 

BTW I agree with your post just prior to this one.

 

I am not tolerant of those who are intolerant not am I tolerant of those who wish to violate the rights of others.

 

But this is a difficult concept to discuss.

[Marblehead]

HI Marblehead. Yeah, I am aware of how the topic started out, but I also saw at least one person trying to take it in a different direction which is what I was responding to.

 

Yeah, I know. I just didn't want you two to get carried away because this is a worthy discussion.

 

I think we agree for the most part but I would add that I think it is not just greed and a need for control that is behind it all however. Self-righteousness, ignorance, and intolerance and hatred and fear of that which is different and other such factors play a big role as well.

...

Anyway, I think that about sums it up for me on this topic. Tolerance and compassion starts with each and every one of us regardless of our personal beliefs and views.

Best wishes...

 

Agree. There are many factors involved. All the world's problems cannot be blamed on religion. We humans have made most of our own problems.

 

Yes, tolerance is important but there are even limits to that as Vmarco pointed out above.

[Marblehead]

Hey you!!! There was a comma after true. Don't confuse me with someone else. Hehehe.

 

 

BTW I agree with your post just prior to this one.

 

I am not tolerant of those who are intolerant nor am I tolerant of those who wish to violate the rights of others.

 

But this is a difficult concept to discuss.

 

 

This was supposed to be an edit but apparently I screwed up.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Marblehead

[Vmarco]

[Marblehead]

 

Welcome to America,...One Nation,...Easily Divisible,...just add religion.

 

V

 

Well, our politicians are doing a pretty good job at dividing us as well.

 

So to add to the ending of your sentence:

 

and American politics.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Yes, tolerance is important but there are even limits to that as Vmarco pointed out above.

 

As I said in my reply to VMarco, I do not think we should ever condone intolerance and violence in its many forms. Also, I think there is a major misunderstanding behind this notion that christians and muslims, etc. are mainly extremists chomping at the bit for war. Where I think the misunderstanding is, although I think it is actually sometimes a deliberate 'misunderstanding' used by some, is when you hear things like muslins are all or mostly terrorists or Christians are all or mostly right wing extremists and this sort of thing. If the majority of christians were extremists and gung ho for war then George Bush and his many associates would never have lost so badly in the last election, it seems to me. What actually happened is the majority of people seem to have rejected George Bush's extremist approach.

 

My experience is that although it does seem that many Christians are closed minded towards other religions, the majority of Christians are not extremists and do not condone war and violence. In actual fact the majority of Christians seem to be involved a lot in charity work in the community and around the world and actually do a lot of very good work both home and abroad. The same for muslims. Muslims are estimated to make up roughly one fifth of the world's population (1.2 to 1.5 billion or so) and if the majority of them were extremists and terrorists as some people seem to think this world would have been in very deep trouble a very long time ago already. The reality is the extremists only seem to make up a smaller percentage of the population of muslims, but because the extremists' deeds often make major headline news, it may seem that the terrorists are more predominant than they actually are. When I speak of tolerance for religion or other beliefs I am not speaking of tolerance for religious extremism and terrorism, which is actually a major distortion of religion. I make a clear distinction between the majority of those who are religious or otherwise and who want to live peacefully, and religious extremists who distort religion and facts to suit their own evil purposes. There are certainly those from many backgrounds who do promote hatred and violence and in my opinion this should never ever be tolerated, but I think these people are actually in the minority by quite a bit. If they weren't in the minority I think this world would have been in shreds a long time ago already. Thankfully, at least since the last world war, the moderates have been in the majority for the most part and been able to maintain some degree of peace at least up until now anyway. I think it is important that we make the clear distinction between the minority of extremists who grossly distort religion and who promote violence and the majority of others who do not.

 

[Edit:]

I think these sorts of discussions can go on endlessly so I will drop out since I have said my piece. It is nice to have the opportunity to speak our minds but in the end what really changes? We don't have much control in this world over what other people all over the word think and how they act, but we can at least work on improving our self. That is at least something concrete that we can all work at. I am all talked out now.

 

 

Best wishes...

Edited August 27, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Marblehead]

I think these sorts of discussions can go on endlessly so I will drop out since I have said my piece. It is nice to have the opportunity to speak our minds but in the end what really changes? We don't have much control in this world over what other people all over the word think and how they act, but we can at least work on improving our self. That is at least something concrete that we can all work at. I am all talked out now.

 

 

Best wishes...

 

Yes, I pretty much understood how you view this concept that we are talking about.

 

I agree, likely the best we can do is walk our talk and hope that it removes some of the aggression from the mind of others.

 

But then if we don't speak to the issue and indicate that we think we (humanity) is headed down a bad road then everyone will think all is well.

 

We must speak if there is something to be said.

[The Way Is Virtue]

I agree, likely the best we can do is walk our talk and hope that it removes some of the aggression from the mind of others.

But then if we don't speak to the issue and indicate that we think we (humanity) is headed down a bad road then everyone will think all is well.

We must speak if there is something to be said.

 

Hi Marblehead. Yes, maybe speaking out does sometimes help at least a bit.

 

Best wishes...

[Vmarco]

[jboz]

You know, I just joined tao burns and started going through these posts. I gotta admit, I have a problem with posting with a headline like this: "For those who hate Muslims." It's really bad energy. For a site like this, I don't think the people here would hate. I think they know the difference between Muslims and radical Muslims that declare Jihads. Also, this is a person who happens to be a Muslim. The skin color or religious affiliation has no bearing on anything. It's almost as if this headline wants to "prove" Muslims are good people. That's why I'm so bothered with it. This could equally have had the headline: "For those who hate men...or those who hate foreign people...or those who hate convenience store owners." Please note that your headline presupposes people are here who hate Muslims. Is that true? Or is the person who posted this Muslim and believes the world is against him/her?

[Marblehead]

Hi Jboz,

 

Yes, the title could be misleading.

 

Yes, it is possible that there are viewers and even active members here who hate Muslims. Here in the US and in much of Europe there is much being said about Muslins and most of it is negative.

 

The video is a contradiction against this stereotypical hate in that it is showing that there are good Muslims as well.

 

As the TTC states, judge the individual according to the individual. In doing this we will find that not all Muslims are terrorists, not all Christians are bigots, not all Buddhists are empty-headed, etc.

 

I would suggest that the thread starter wanted to reflect this.

 

You know, there are many people who are going to base their opinions on what they read in the newspapers and see on TV. If all they see about Muslims is negative stuff then it is likely that they will assume a negative view of "all" Muslims.

 

We must keep an open mind and if we are going to judge we should make sure we have enough evicence to make a sound, rational judgement. If we don't know we should admit that we do not know.

[doc benway]

You know, I just joined tao burns and started going through these posts. I gotta admit, I have a problem with posting with a headline like this: "For those who hate Muslims." It's really bad energy. For a site like this, I don't think the people here would hate. I think they know the difference between Muslims and radical Muslims that declare Jihads. Also, this is a person who happens to be a Muslim. The skin color or religious affiliation has no bearing on anything. It's almost as if this headline wants to "prove" Muslims are good people. That's why I'm so bothered with it. This could equally have had the headline: "For those who hate men...or those who hate foreign people...or those who hate convenience store owners." Please note that your headline presupposes people are here who hate Muslims. Is that true? Or is the person who posted this Muslim and believes the world is against him/her?

Hi jboz,

This site has its share of intolerance and unpleasantness, unfortunately.

There are some really good folks here and some very good info.

It's an open forum, however, and therefore represents a cross section of the population.

I don't mean this to be a criticism of the OP or anyone in particular, just a general response.

It's a breath of fresh air for me anytime someone speaks from a place of civility and kindness as you are.

I hope you stick around for a while and share your views with us.

[on the path]

otp / Shaman Flowing Hands, I don't want to get this thread too far off track but I think it is only fair that people should be aware that you have been promoting shaman flowing hands and the shaman flowing hands website and writings and shaman flowing hands translation of the Dao De Ching here as possibly the 'most important Taoist of modern times' and of 'high import to westerners' and that sort of thing as if he was someone other than yourself, but as you know I stumbled across information that indicates pretty strongly that you and person who put up the shaman flowing hands website are actually the same person. Unless of course you can explain why the person who has been promoting shaman flowing hands in this forum and another Daoist web forum in exactly the same way happens to have the exact same first and last name and postal code as the person who registered shaman flowing hands web domain name? Those are the facts. Deny and attack if you must, but those are the facts. If there is an explanation, I haven't heard it. You seem to only want to attack instead. That says a lot.

 

The rest that I wrote regarding intolerance and human nature is my point of view and I have expressed it as my point of view. I think that what I have said regarding intolerance and human nature has some sound basis, so I think it is at least worth consideration.

 

Best wishes...

 

Sorry old bean, what you've said doesn't logically add up!!

 

I don't want to get into personal issues here which you seem to be determined to do now on at least four posts that I have put up, making it your private little task/vendetta to try show up some assumption you've got, really is becoming a harassment. I thought that given your post all about 'virtue' and that you cared so much about life and people that when it counts this really is all BS when it comes to anyone who you don't quite see eye to eye with or have a little chip on your shoulder about!

 

I have told you who I am and it is quite easy to register a web site via someone else and post things on a website with someone else's name as long as it is a genuine name and address. I had the original book of Flowing Hands DDJ sent to me twenty years ago. I was fascinated by the whole thing especially with my own background. I realized that people on this website may never have heard of this site and I personally feel from my experiences in the far East and with my teacher that what Flowing Hands has to say is very important to get across. It is written in this original book that religion will be the downfall of this world. If Flowing Hands has been told this by his Immortal Masters, who can see into the future, then who are we to doubt him? My Master Yoon Kin Tong was consulted many times about future events when he had invited Huang Lao Xian Shi to come and those things came true. I believe this because of the experience I have had. Perhaps you lack this experience and knowledge, but I don't.

 

Another point here is this, If you feel that I am Flowing Hands, then why are you addressing me with so much disrespect?? I would never address Master Tong as if I was some foolish idiot. Such a great Shaman as Flowing Hands should not be addressed in such a manner like you have done! Shamans are very dangerous and powerful humans, I know, I was with my master for many years. In ancient times people avoided at all cost to be rude or to be disrespectful towards them for fear of their lives. It's a good job that I'm not Flowing Hands isn't it!!

 

The DDJ in my opinion, if you take the time to really fathom it out, is telling us to go back to a natural way of living and to give up religion and be just like every other life form that exists on this planet (following the way). So I am expressing just that view. There are many, many on this forum who express exactly the same opinion but I haven't seen you badgering them on posts that they have put up like a troll!

 

Because it seems like you won't accept my truthful explanation and I am expecting more harassment in the future from you, this will be my last post on Tao Bums. A great shame because I've really enjoyed my time sharing opinions and some of my genuine teachings with others. You are such an idiot, because if I were really Flowing Hands, anyone with the slightest bit of sense, would have been overjoyed at the chance to communicate with such a genuine person, but all you've achieved is to drive them away. What have you gained from that?? As it is, you managed to drive an ordinary Kung Fu Master away with a vast experience of spiritual knowledge from a genuine Shaman Master. I didn't sign up to be harassed by someone who preaches virtue but doesn't appear to posses any!

[Vmarco]

[Everything]

Well I do believe that if you were to ask a lot of religious people from many different faiths about their attitudes towards the environment, towards their fellow beings and towards other life you may be surprised at how low their real spiritual values are in seeing life equally. Without seeing life equally how can one treasure all life and follow the natural way? How can one's actions be right if your religion thinks that animals are there for you to use and abuse? People who have no religion, care for the world and can have much better perspectives than religious people as well as having worse. But if your belief system tells you that all other life is not as valued as human life where are we going to end up? Exactly where we are now!

I believe people and religion are the problem. There are some absolutely fantastic people who are not the least religious, there are some absolutely fantastic people who are spiritual. But I really haven't met any fantastic religious people who are not prejudice against others who are not of their religion. The JW's are a case to mention. Full of silly restrictive rules and prejudices, even down to whether a man should wear a beard or not. And yet their attitudes are taken up by millions of people around the world. JW's are not supposed to mix with any other religion or non religious people, only with their own kind. It is these such attitudes that one does very easily find in all sorts of spiritual paths that are their down fall and so the natural way is lost on rules and prejudice. I think people should follow natural law and give religion the boot!!!!

I don't care about religion either. The thing that fascinates me is that the ancients knew stuff that we still can't understand. The history is not to be neglected.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Edited August 28, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue