Suicide, evolutionary perspective

[Everything]

The believes about why people suicide is relative to perspective. We can have infinite perspectives, like a social perspective, biological perspective, evolutionary perspective, dolphin perspective, comedic perspective, chocolate perspective, water perspective, economical perspective, ethical perapective, etc.

I'm going to share my personal perspective, which could be disagreed upon.

 

When you look at suicide from an evolutionary point of view, you see that suicide is an completely natural tendency for us natural human beings. When you have two potatoes, 3 men. The men that feels bad about himself will suicide to benefit the other two that feel great about them selves. For example, the men that feel great about themselves might be alot fitter and have a better chance of survival. It can then be seen as an addaptive act to the decreasing amount of available resources. The same can be said for wars that kill thousands or milions in order to make up for the lack of resources.

 

Not to mention, suicide have existed since hunters and gatherers. It is not something limited to lunatics as most like to believe. There have been societies were suicide was to be admired and societies where in suicide was as insult to the gods. Bottom line, suicide has been around for a long, very long, time. The result? Suicidal tendencies still existant within our bodies till the day of today. Completely natural and commonly triggered when alot of STRUGGLES of survival are felt. In the past, our survival depended on nature. Our trust in this nature ran parallel to the contentment of these ancients.

 

Currently the same is true for us modern people. Our survival also depends on nature and resources available for us from this nature. So how come every 32 second someone suicides(source: wikipedia)? My perception tells me that nature has changed. Nature consists of money that magically conjures food on our tables. So when trust in money is lost, the ancient struggle for survival is felt and suicidal tendencies arise.

 

Conclusion: suicide is caused mostly, if not only, by our monetary system.

 

Source of information: zeitgeist addendum (monetary system) and zeitgeist moving forward (alignment with nature).

 

Thanks for reading, feel free to watch zeitgeist documentary for more in depth knowledge of these ideas that were personally inspired by that documentary. It is free of sponsorship or commercial. Completely non profit, free to watch documentary.

 

Let the discussions begin. Or as I like to put it; the questioning of ones own believes, rather then that of someone elses. Keep it peaceful and thanks for reading.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Conclusion: suicide is caused mostly, if not only, by our monetary system.

 

I don't think I will buy that. I think it is more at it is caused by a person's valuation of self-worth in totality, not just monetary value.

 

This is why I sometimes get into heated discussion of certain Buddhist concepts that are misunderstood or are being misrepresented.

 

It is my very strong opinion that certain discussions can lead to nihilistic thinking. Nihilistic thinking can easily lead to a low valuation of self-worth and therefore to questioning of why we should keep on living.

[doc benway]

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[Marblehead]

------ Mod Team -----------

 

This topic has been moved to general discussion as it contains no elements or references specific to Taoist Discussion

 

 

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Darn! I could have pointed it that way, you know. Hehehe.

[konchog uma]

 

Conclusion: suicide is caused mostly, if not only, by our monetary system.

 

Source of information: zeitgeist addendum (monetary system) and zeitgeist moving forward (alignment with nature).

 

 

people get depressed for a variety of reasons. rich people get depressed and some attempt suicide. the cult of zeitgeist blames everything on money, which shifts personal responsibility away from the self. beware of oversimplified answers.

[Everything]

Sorry about that, I didn't notice I was redirected to taoist discussion from google. Silly me ^^

I ment to post on general

[tulku]

The believes about why people suicide is relative to perspective. We can have infinite perspectives, like a social perspective, biological perspective, evolutionary perspective, dolphin perspective, comedic perspective, chocolate perspective, water perspective, economical perspective, ethical perapective, etc.

I'm going to share my personal perspective, which could be disagreed upon.

 

When you look at suicide from an evolutionary point of view, you see that suicide is an completely natural tendency for us natural human beings. When you have two potatoes, 3 men. The men that feels bad about himself will suicide to benefit the other two that feel great about them selves. For example, the men that feel great about themselves might be alot fitter and have a better chance of survival. It can then be seen as an addaptive act to the decreasing amount of available resources. The same can be said for wars that kill thousands or milions in order to make up for the lack of resources.

 

Not to mention, suicide have existed since hunters and gatherers. It is not something limited to lunatics as most like to believe. There have been societies were suicide was to be admired and societies where in suicide was as insult to the gods. Bottom line, suicide has been around for a long, very long, time. The result? Suicidal tendencies still existant within our bodies till the day of today. Completely natural and commonly triggered when alot of STRUGGLES of survival are felt. In the past, our survival depended on nature. Our trust in this nature ran parallel to the contentment of these ancients.

 

Currently the same is true for us modern people. Our survival also depends on nature and resources available for us from this nature. So how come every 32 second someone suicides(source: wikipedia)? My perception tells me that nature has changed. Nature consists of money that magically conjures food on our tables. So when trust in money is lost, the ancient struggle for survival is felt and suicidal tendencies arise.

 

Conclusion: suicide is caused mostly, if not only, by our monetary system.

 

Source of information: zeitgeist addendum (monetary system) and zeitgeist moving forward (alignment with nature).

 

Thanks for reading, feel free to watch zeitgeist documentary for more in depth knowledge of these ideas that were personally inspired by that documentary. It is free of sponsorship or commercial. Completely non profit, free to watch documentary.

 

Let the discussions begin. Or as I like to put it; the questioning of ones own believes, rather then that of someone elses. Keep it peaceful and thanks for reading.

 

How about those soldiers who strap bombs to their chests, sneak into the enemy camp and blow themselves up, taking a whole lot more enemy troops into the next dimension with them?

 

Is that still suicide?

Edited August 24, 2011 by tulku

[Everything]

I don't think I will buy that. I think it is more at it is caused by a person's valuation of self-worth in totality, not just monetary value.

 

This is why I sometimes get into heated discussion of certain Buddhist concepts that are misunderstood or are being misrepresented.

 

It is my very strong opinion that certain discussions can lead to nihilistic thinking. Nihilistic thinking can easily lead to a low valuation of self-worth and therefore to questioning of why we should keep on living.

I agree with you, but I never said people suicide because of their low monetary value, because a low monetary value would make them happier, yet have society turn their back on him or her because he doesn't seem to share their faith in money. Then again, everything around is effected by the monetary system and its corruptions. That is what I have understood from Zeitgeist. Even the low self worth is caused by the competetiveness that is encouraged by the monetary system. That is just one out many explanations I think.

 

The monetary SYTEM is the cause of most suicide. If some other system replaces it, it might also have some form of credits for certain stuff I don't know. But the CURRENT SYSTEM behind all the money is corrupt, and it runs most of our lives for most people on this planet. And if it does not, you are certainly effected by the monetary system in HUGE ways. The money itself is a piece of paper that blinds people to the truth behind the monetary system. The monetary system is the worlds most unquestioned piece of faith that has ever existed. People always believe that money is important, that the piece of paper or number on your bank account is of any significance. Then when you ask them what their money really means they agree that it is a piece of paper that gives you the power to buy stuff thats all they know. They put value in the money not the monetary system. Why? Because people trust in the system that allows them to buy stuff. Its as simple as that. And if they didn't put faith in the system, the whole world that does trust in the monetary system blindly and is supporting it blindly will make his or her life vey hard. There are laws being made that makes it impossible for people to be self sufficient or independent. This system they trust and know nothing of, not even how huge its power is and how destructive it is to this planet. Why not put the faith of our lives and that of our children in the hands of less corrupted people by having another system replace this monetary system that creates a heaven on earth. Like a resource based economy where we serve only the laws of nature and cooperate with our real parents NATURE.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Everything

[Everything]

How about those soldiers who strap bombs to their chests, sneak into the enemy camp and blow themselves up, taking a whole lot more enemy troops into the next dimension with them?

 

Is that still suicide?

Yes, that is also suicide in my view. And it too can be retraced to the monetary system that is the cause of most terrorist attacks.

 

Do you know much money is spent on fighting "terrorists" and "bad enemies" that are not even present. Did you know how much more "bad people" these acts of war enforced by the monetary system creates? Did you know that the money put in science is nothig compared to the money put into killing other people? Did you know that it is beneficial for our current monetary system that have more mentally and physically ill people on the planet as opposed to having them all cured, which would collapse the health care system and destroy economies. Tell me then, which is more evil. The sick people or the monetary system that is the cause of their illness and then refuses to cure them. The terrorists born out of acts of war with its foundation completely in the monetary system, or the monetary system?

Edited August 24, 2011 by Everything

[Everything]

people get depressed for a variety of reasons. rich people get depressed and some attempt suicide. the cult of zeitgeist blames everything on money, which shifts personal responsibility away from the self. beware of oversimplified answers.

The response to marblehead applies equally to you.

 

I understand what you mean, but I do not blame money. I blame the monetary system, the thing that forces us to live out of our nature. The monetary system causes most of the stress that can be regarded as a feeling of struggle for survival. This nature within us is ancient but not gone from our biological make up.

 

The zeitgeist movement is not a cult, it is movement that support the Venus Project. Have you seen zeitgeist addendum?

[Everything]

I do want people to make up their own minds about what the monetary system actually means to them, these are my opinions and please do not consider them to be truth for everyone. Some people actually like the "corruption" that comes with the monetary system.

 

But if no one knows what the monetary system really means, then I advice you to educate yourself about that. If you know what the monetary system is all about and you think the system is good and not the cause of most suicide, then I would love to hear from you.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

... the thing(s) that forces us to live out of our nature.

 

I'll buy that!

[Everything]

I'll buy that!

I'm sorry, its free

[Jetsun]

On a wider scale the monetary system may be uniting the world far more effectively than anything else ever has, for example it's counter productive for there to be large wars now between the major powers, like China and the US can't have a war without both sides being crippled and European countries can't really kill each other any more. There may be many downsides and imbalances but if if prevents the sorts of wars which decimated the world in previous centuries then it has it's up side as I'm sure the amount of suicides it may cause is incomparable to the casualites of world wars. We just have to hope the system doesn't completely collapse.

[Birch]

Finally we get to talk ca$h ;-)

 

One of the best analogies I've read in a long time is to be found in the excellent book "The Value of Nothing".

 

On suicide. I don't see it as an evolutionary advantage, rather a sad reaction to too much pain without the realisation that it will pass and everything changes. I liked GIH's take on what to do in the face of it. It's on general forum.

[Marblehead]

I'm sorry, its free

 

No sorry. I like free stuff.

[Everything]

Finally we get to talk ca$h ;-)

 

One of the best analogies I've read in a long time is to be found in the excellent book "The Value of Nothing".

 

On suicide. I don't see it as an evolutionary advantage, rather a sad reaction to too much pain without the realisation that it will pass and everything changes. I liked GIH's take on what to do in the face of it. It's on general forum.

Who is the author of that book and what does GIH mean? Could you link the topic?

 

The evolutionary perspective simply means that everything that survived must have had an evolutionary benefit to some degree in the past, or it would have extinct. For example, when we do not drink water for a long time we become thirsty because in the past you would die if you did not drink water. Thus, the sensation of thirst would increase your chances of finding water and drinking.

 

The same thing I applied to suicide. There must be some reason that it exists and has existed for so long. There is definetely some emotion and urge for suicide, self hurt, self neglect, self abuse. Alot of people hate them selves and cannot even look into the mirror. It seems like there are certain triggers for suicidal tendencies relative to the perception of the environment. Sure, sometimes we do not perceive what is really out there, but that can be equally blamed on the bad media and community messages which can be blamed on the monetary system aswell.

Especially kids, who get emotionally upset very quickly might think about suicide. They are made believe that they NEED toys in order to be happy. This actually happens and they tend to blur out thoughts about suicide when they don't get toys. The parents are not to blame here, but the brainwash from the media, of which the parents have no knowledge of.

The same can be said for all the anger in the world. I'm saying that the anger is naturall and completely normal for us natural human beings. It is the environment that has become unnatural and not in tune with our inner nature and this in turn causing all the "mental disorders" labels with a bad connotation. If you study psychology enough you will understand that mental disorders are simply natural. It is all a survival mechanism, to protect you. We cannot slap a man and and resent him for becoming angry at us for doing so. Sure at this unnatural environment we can, but if you take into account the milions of generations before us that has not lived that way. We cannot say to another person to stop falling in love with us. Why? Because it is simply too much to ask for. Surely it would be great if the whole world became aware of their inner nature and how it effects them so that they might addept more flexibly, but thats not going to happen anytime soon. I think...

 

I've known people who lived completely natural, growing own food, living in small group, walking to get water, in freedom. These people totally got psychotic when they moved into the city. When you see crazy drug addicts on the street, it is always good to know that they had an entire life before that. It is good to know who we should really blame for all the crimes as well. Is the murderer really responsible for killing someone out of his own agression, or are his parents responsible for raping him at a young age, or is the hostile environment we live in to blame for all of this?

 

Sure, your perspective is also a good perspective. But is it a lasting perspective, or does it change the moment your life becomes a living hell? We cannot give people a fluctuating truth/nontruth. When things begin to really suck, you will want to suicide, for death will seem as the most peaceful thing, that is what people say when they do not lie. It is simply the way it is. Surely, a happy person might think it to be a sad solution to temporary problems, but a sad person might also think it to be a happy and peaceful solution to permanent problems. See where I'm getting at with this? Sometimes we cannot talk emotions out of the person, because we cannot change milions of years of evolution. We rather have to change the environment, make it more positive for human beings to live in cooperatively and happy.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Everything

[konchog uma]

The response to marblehead applies equally to you.

 

I understand what you mean, but I do not blame money. I blame the monetary system, the thing that forces us to live out of our nature. The monetary system causes most of the stress that can be regarded as a feeling of struggle for survival. This nature within us is ancient but not gone from our biological make up.

 

The zeitgeist movement is not a cult, it is movement that support the Venus Project. Have you seen zeitgeist addendum?

 

did you know that the federal reserve isn't part of the federal body? it's an offshore institution that taxes the u.s. goverment on each dollar. money is essentially a debter's instrument.

 

all the same, i didn't mean to knock the people who learn from zeitgeist. i love the venus project. i think jacques fresco is a genius. i just think that the zeitgeist series is oversimplified, and has an attitude in its presentation that i don't like. so that probably came across in my comment to you.

 

its just personal preference, im not trying to convince you that i'm right. and i forget which zeitgeist i have seen and which i haven't. i think there are 3 and ive seen 2, and im not sure which one addendum is

[Birch]

GIH = the TTB user 'Gold is Heavy' and I can't find the thread but I'm sure you can do a search or maybe GIH will come back with some more perspectives on it.

 

The book is also searchable online (unless you don't have access to search engines for some reason?)

 

I found your ideas interesting but 'There must be some reason that it exists' is IMO pointing more to a 'how' than a 'why' to explain suicide. Reasons/causality are/is IMO/IME quite some more complicated. Or maybe it isn't and GIH's suggestion to consider yourself dead and get on with living is really the most interesting one (and in fact IMO/IME very much at the heart of much cultivation practice:-))

 

I'm pretty interested in the 'it's there and so must have evolved 'naturally' and must therefore be useful' story. That is an interesting topic all by itself.

 

Physical death can be witnessed. Does that mean the death of the individual? Can we say that this is the 'naturally' and 'evolved' state of affairs? Does everything physically die?

 

There was another post by TaoMeow about spontaneous abortions and their apparent increase. Does that count as 'suicide'? The 'decision' not to incarnate?

 

Sorry, too many questions :-) I don't know any answers.

[Non]

http://www.takeninhand.com/when.rape.is.a.gift

http://www.takeninhand.com/node/328

http://www.halfsigma.com/2007/01/alpha_beta_and_.html

 

just some articles I found googling.

[Birch]

Wow, thread-killing post Non! You're back with more of the same? Those sites are sh*te. IMO of course

[Cat Pillar]

For me, suicidal thoughts usually arise as a result of indecision, apathy, and depression (themselves a result of attachment to desire). I suppose I could blame the monetary system for putting me into a position where I must pit work against desire and creating a high-stress environment...but that doesn't really solve anything and in my opinion kind of misses the point.

 

My battle with suicidal thoughts, to me, is more about my internal environment than my external environment. While the external environment may elicit an internal reaction leading to suicidal thoughts, a change in the external environment won't necessarily resolve the internal issues that lead to the suicidal reaction in the first place.

 

This is an interesting topic, since I recently began experiencing suicidal thoughts again. I blame this partially on being switched to graveyard shift and the havoc it's playing on my sleep cycles. Body no like. Living has become a chore for me, and I don't particularly enjoy doing chores. But, as -K- mentioned, everything changes. If there's one thing I can be assured of it's that this situation cannot possibly remain the same forever, due to the nature of...well...everything.

 

Of course, change isn't always positive. But there's no point in worrying about that unless it happens.

[Non]

I always think of suicide as simple being better for everyone around me.

 

I seem less concerned with how I feel, and think more about how my suicide may affect society. Sometimes I feel as if I have a moral responsibility to commit suicide.

 

Some even might say it's an evolutionary mechanism. Cells self destruct when there is a problem during cell division. Most of the time I feel suicidal not of my own deepest desire at the very least.

 

Why do you think it could be an evolutionary mechanism? A HB9.5 (lol) was mentioning the other day in my class how she's reading about an evolutionary theory that says depression is a mechanism to keep beta males from trying to accomplish what the alphas already have, and have no use accomplishing.

 

So what more can I say to that? Alpha males don't have to be virtuous, etc. all they have to do is be dominant and pretentious and all the Gods and the Universe have their back.

 

While good and decent people get to die from horrible and suffering filled lives, only to serve the alpha pimps and gangsters who obviously outnumber everyone else.

 

When I say alpha, I don't mean men simply "better". Alpha in this society simply means more dominant. So if a "BG" (bad guy) is dominant he is alpha. Is it just the nature of the universe, that people HAVE to be aggressive bad guys/girls to survive in this society? Heck alphas can be anywhere in society. In taoist temples, in buddhist temples. They all have their bullies no matter how supposedly virtuous they are.

 

Maybe it is just nature. Nature opresses the already weak. Doesn't make sense. Or strength always comes with lack of compassion. The "good" are always weak, etc.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Non

[Marblehead]

I always think of suicide as simple being better for everyone around me.

 

I seem less concerned with how I feel, and think more about how my suicide may affect society. Sometimes I feel as if I have a moral responsibility to commit suicide.

 

Some even might say it's an evolutionary mechanism.

 

Naw. It's a cop-out. Fear or lack of desire to deal with your personal reality. Get tough and fight what is opposing you. (You will probably find that you are what is opposing you.)

 

Get you pea-shooter out and start shooting spit-balls at anyone who gets in your way of living.

[Non]

Naw. It's a cop-out. Fear or lack of desire to deal with your personal reality. Get tough and fight what is opposing you. (You will probably find that you are what is opposing you.)

 

Get you pea-shooter out and start shooting spit-balls at anyone who gets in your way of living.

 

How is it a copout if you have zero to extremely limited capability of ever becoming successful enough to be useful? The universe would probably think it's no use!

 

Most people would think this as well. How many people do you see these days really caring for someone who is suffering? Why is there still suffering?

Edited August 25, 2011 by Non