Suicide, evolutionary perspective

[Jetsun]

Most people would think this as well. How many people do you see these days really caring for someone who is suffering? Why is there still suffering?

 

It is true barely anyone cares about your suffering, most people are completely wrapped up in their own concerns, but it doesn't have to be like that always in the future so it is our responsibility now to try to do something about it for the future generations. This is the main challenge for humanity now in my view, you have to work to become mature, loving and compassionate when love isn't being given back to you and when no-one is showing you how to do it and when you can expect few rewards for your efforts, but you do it anyway. So it is an incredibly difficult challenge you can either face or reject and remain angry at the state of the world until you die having just repeated old patterns your whole life, or you can try to break them.

[Jetsun]

How is it a copout if you have zero to extremely limited capability of ever becoming successful enough to be useful? The universe would probably think it's no use!

 

Your own power has been turned in on itself, i'm certain the universe would rather you reclaimed your own power and got it moving in the right healthy direction far more than you killing yourself as it would help bring things back towards harmony, while the ripple from your suicide would just keep the patterns of disharmony going long after your death.

[Marblehead]

How is it a copout if you have zero to extremely limited capability of ever becoming successful enough to be useful? The universe would probably think it's no use!

 

Most people would think this as well. How many people do you see these days really caring for someone who is suffering? Why is there still suffering?

 

Nope. Still not buying it Non.

 

Everyone can find ways to make themselves useful to others and feel self-worth in the process.

 

Nobody told you that life was going to be easy. If they did they were lying.

 

Yes, it will take effort. And sometimes it will seem as though you are fighting a losing battle. But I assure you, life is worth living if we are not afraid to have experiences and are not afraid of making mistakes. Yeah, we make mistakes, that's part of life too.

[suninmyeyes]

It is true barely anyone cares about your suffering, most people are completely wrapped up in their own concerns, but it doesn't have to be like that always in the future so it is our responsibility now to try to do something about it for the future generations. This is the main challenge for humanity now in my view, you have to work to become mature, loving and compassionate when love isn't being given back to you and when no-one is showing you how to do it and when you can expect few rewards for your efforts, but you do it anyway. So it is an incredibly difficult challenge you can either face or reject and remain angry at the state of the world until you die having just repeated old patterns your whole life, or you can try to break them.

Yes Jetsun!Well said.

Get up ,stand up dont give up the fight..

Reclaim your birthright.

[konchog uma]

How is it a copout if you have zero to extremely limited capability of ever becoming successful enough to be useful? The universe would probably think it's no use!

 

Most people would think this as well. How many people do you see these days really caring for someone who is suffering? Why is there still suffering?

 

the useless tree is not cut down by the carpenter and achieves longevity. don't strive to be useful to others, realize your true nature and act in accord. the universe loves you whether you serve a purpose to the masses or not.

 

realizing that everyone suffers is the seed of true compassion and great altruism. for as long as there is enjoyment, there may be suffering too. from an evolutionary perspective, the purpose of suffering is quicker rate of change. if everything were blissful, why would we evolve or seek deeper levels of realization?

 

be thankful for suffering as sacred. in my own life i am thankful for my horrible sufferings because they have strengthened my resolve and practice, and my faith and love. if i lived a charmed life i would take things for granted like so many silver spoon gagging fools. fortunately for me, the reality blessed me with obstacles and sufferings so that i would learn of my own compassion and depth of character.

 

take heart non. the way of nature is unconditional giving, and this is only a 3d shadow of the higher dimensional unconditional love of the spirit. don't forget that you are loved, and persevere until you have learned the lesson that is the real reason for the suffering. bless your spirit! life isn't easy for anyone, in spite of the airs they might put on or the possessions they might flash

[Birch]

For me, suicidal thoughts usually arise as a result of indecision, apathy, and depression (themselves a result of attachment to desire). I suppose I could blame the monetary system for putting me into a position where I must pit work against desire and creating a high-stress environment...but that doesn't really solve anything and in my opinion kind of misses the point.

 

My battle with suicidal thoughts, to me, is more about my internal environment than my external environment. While the external environment may elicit an internal reaction leading to suicidal thoughts, a change in the external environment won't necessarily resolve the internal issues that lead to the suicidal reaction in the first place.

 

This is an interesting topic, since I recently began experiencing suicidal thoughts again. I blame this partially on being switched to graveyard shift and the havoc it's playing on my sleep cycles. Body no like. Living has become a chore for me, and I don't particularly enjoy doing chores. But, as -K- mentioned, everything changes. If there's one thing I can be assured of it's that this situation cannot possibly remain the same forever, due to the nature of...well...everything.

 

Of course, change isn't always positive. But there's no point in worrying about that unless it happens.

 

 

Yeah I think there are a few things that play havoc with people's systems. I still don't know anything about any 'evolutionary purpose' of suicide but I do figure that forcing yourself into work that doesn't fit your rhythms might not be a great idea. Better to find something else.

 

Anyway, one of the 'takeaways' from meditation that I'd like to share from my experience is this 'notion' where you approach the feeling (any at all, although in this case it's 'suicidal') and get an awareness of exactly what this feeling feels and where it feels and whence it feels from and all that. I've done it with quite a number of pretty awful feelings and in many cases I found that part of what was making the feeling so horrible was my avoidance of it. I felt like I was 'born' with a hole (although probably not literally) in my heart. I think homeopathy helped with that, but so did realizing that holes are also meant to see through :-)

 

Not meant to be corny. Sorry. It's just what worked for me so far :-) And so as not to dismiss or sound esoteric. So did qi-gong and therapy and this forum

[Non]

the useless tree is not cut down by the carpenter and achieves longevity. don't strive to be useful to others, realize your true nature and act in accord. the universe loves you whether you serve a purpose to the masses or not.

 

realizing that everyone suffers is the seed of true compassion and great altruism. for as long as there is enjoyment, there may be suffering too. from an evolutionary perspective, the purpose of suffering is quicker rate of change. if everything were blissful, why would we evolve or seek deeper levels of realization?

 

be thankful for suffering as sacred. in my own life i am thankful for my horrible sufferings because they have strengthened my resolve and practice, and my faith and love. if i lived a charmed life i would take things for granted like so many silver spoon gagging fools. fortunately for me, the reality blessed me with obstacles and sufferings so that i would learn of my own compassion and depth of character.

 

take heart non. the way of nature is unconditional giving, and this is only a 3d shadow of the higher dimensional unconditional love of the spirit. don't forget that you are loved, and persevere until you have learned the lesson that is the real reason for the suffering. bless your spirit! life isn't easy for anyone, in spite of the airs they might put on or the possessions they might flash

 

we suffer only because suffering exists. We suffer only because we have to. NOt becauseI want it. That doesn't mean I can't try to enjoy it but it seems there's a fine line between acceptance and "wanting" which in unclear to me.

 

 

I don't understand why we have to suffer to experience good. There are many who cling to suffering because they believe this.

 

Like I said, if it's necessary then it is. But to actively seek suffering for enjoyment, is not true suffering.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Non

[Birch]

" if it's necessary then it is."

 

It's not.

 

My 2 cts.

 

 

Nice to see you back.

[Marblehead]

" if it's necessary then it is."

 

It's not.

 

My 2 cts.

 

Nice to see you back.

 

That's worth at least ten cents.

[konchog uma]

we suffer only because suffering exists. We suffer only because we have to. NOt becauseI want it. That doesn't mean I can't try to enjoy it but it seems there's a fine line between acceptance and "wanting" which in unclear to me.

 

 

I don't understand why we have to suffer to experience good. There are many who cling to suffering because they believe this.

 

Like I said, if it's necessary then it is. But to actively seek suffering for enjoyment, is not true suffering.

 

no thats called masochism. and in my own personal lexicon, i find pain to be inevitable and constant, but suffering i define as the attachment to pain. big difference. but thats only in my own head so um... anyway

 

asking "why" anything always leads to infinite regression of more "why"s. accept that suffering happens, and if you can, take responsibility for your own suffering, which is the first step to moving beyond it in my experience.

[Birch]

What he said :-)

 

And my other 2cts. Stop with the 'why' - it's just a corruption of language to stay fixed in the 'how'. IMO/IME

[Cat Pillar]

Yeah I think there are a few things that play havoc with people's systems. I still don't know anything about any 'evolutionary purpose' of suicide but I do figure that forcing yourself into work that doesn't fit your rhythms might not be a great idea. Better to find something else.

 

Anyway, one of the 'takeaways' from meditation that I'd like to share from my experience is this 'notion' where you approach the feeling (any at all, although in this case it's 'suicidal') and get an awareness of exactly what this feeling feels and where it feels and whence it feels from and all that. I've done it with quite a number of pretty awful feelings and in many cases I found that part of what was making the feeling so horrible was my avoidance of it. I felt like I was 'born' with a hole (although probably not literally) in my heart. I think homeopathy helped with that, but so did realizing that holes are also meant to see through :-)

 

Not meant to be corny. Sorry. It's just what worked for me so far :-) And so as not to dismiss or sound esoteric. So did qi-gong and therapy and this forum

 

Didn't sound corny to me.

 

As far as the work thing goes, I admit an attachment to the paycheck. I get paid good money at my job. Fortunately, the night shift doesn't have to be a permanent thing. After 6 months, the shift differential I get becomes a permanent part of my salary, and I only have two more months to go for that. I know someone on the evening shift (which I worked before and loved) who would love to trade me because he enjoys working nights. Two more months of misery will hopefully be worth it in the long run.

 

I think my problem is I can't decide if I want to keep suffering or change. It may sound odd, but that seems to be the reality of the situation. I'm getting to the stage where all the really ugly stuff is coming out into the light, and I'm not sure I have the courage to face it all.

[Birch]

Well i suppose if it's coming up you'll face it anyway, courage or not:-) Might as well have courage.

Nothing wrong with getting paid :-)

[C T]

Hey, lighten up everyone... time for some Binduism to bring some laughs into your weekend!!

(although i think what Colin Lama said to Greta towards the end seriously rocks! Crazy wisdom haha!)

 

 

 

 

And for those who may temporarily wish to avert humor in favor of a more stoic perspective, try this:

 

[Cat Pillar]

Well i suppose if it's coming up you'll face it anyway, courage or not:-) Might as well have courage.

Nothing wrong with getting paid :-)

 

Hmm...interesting point.

[Everything]

Why do you think it could be an evolutionary mechanism? A HB9.5 (lol) was mentioning the other day in my class how she's reading about an evolutionary theory that says depression is a mechanism to keep beta males from trying to accomplish what the alphas already have, and have no use accomplishing.

 

So what more can I say to that? Alpha males don't have to be virtuous, etc. all they have to do is be dominant and pretentious and all the Gods and the Universe have their back.

 

While good and decent people get to die from horrible and suffering filled lives, only to serve the alpha pimps and gangsters who obviously outnumber everyone else.

Sorry, I was away for a while. When I read this, I found that it explains exactly how our current environment, with its monetary system and all the corruption, effects the average person. I think it is important to put an emphasis on these words from Non, and adress them.

 

What non said about depression is entirely true, but interpreted in a wrong way. If you are of high rank, and another high ranked person comes along, the battle between these two will be deadly. Nature has solved this, simply by depressing one person into submission so that he will not likely fight back and cause unnecesary destruction. Like two brothers fightings, where one eventually desides that the fight itself it useless and a waste of time, so he drops the ball and stops playing the whole game resolved around power.

The dominant person depends on the submission of others, and the submission depends on the dominance of others. You think that becoming dominant is a solution to depression, but it also gives rise to mania, which is equally out of balance. However... When the environment requires this, it is completely natural to compliment all the dominance in the world by becoming depressed. If you go from submission to manic, you will have to submit some people first, which will not be peaceful or a pleasant experience, so why do people wish to become dominant in our current society? Because the monetary system is the very thing that rewards dominance in our day and world. Who gets rewarded, libya for remaining peaceful, or the NATO who bombards libya, killing thousands of children in order to get some oil or gold, whatever it is they seek. The monetary system reveals to us that eventually everyone will want to become manic, which shall put alot of pressure on the submitted people of this world. The loving hearts, the kinds hearts, the good people, the naive, the innocent.

This is an age of consciousness, an age where love shall reveal the biggest truths and corruption of this world, simply because love is so open and vulnerable.

The truth is, we are all slaves too absurdly powerful people in this world. The depression is natural! You cannot seek to "make everyone believe that they are free, from within" and have them living a lie in order to remain happy. For how long will that last? The most enslaved of all are those who falsely believe that they are free... We should serve only the nature upon which we truely depend, like the ancients have done for as long as they lived. This is the only way of harmony and Tao.

So, what seems like depression is merely a natural submission to promote peace and balance in our world! Don't blame the natural emotions that promote peace and harmony! The most important of all this is the relationship between the "bad" and "good" the "strong" and the "weak." With our materialistic world, alot of people have delved into a ethical confusion about what is really good. I too have wondered for a long time wether or not feeling depressed, being good, submitted, desiring to suicide, is good... I thought for a while that it is simply naive and stupid, as society puts it. For in the past, all the good societies have been murdered... Why should be love and be good when that means certain death to us?

 

The end of the world, Mayan prediction, The advice giving by them and the advice given by Lao Tzu in Tao te Ching, the final battle between good and evil predicted by all religions

When you read Tao te Ching, you read how it promotes love and submission to that low place which all men dislike. When you seek ancient wisdom which has survived for thousands of years, the mayans tell us that the new age of consciousness is beginning in 2012, and that their ancients tell us to be happy, not fear or anger, yet love and remain open. Give kindness, especially to our enemies. For this revolution shall be fought, literally, by the heart alone.

With current technology, loving people shall either thrife, or shrewd dominant players will destroy everyone, including themselves in their games of power totally depended on materialistic views of our planet enforced by a monetary system and corruption all around the world.

The final battle to be fought by the human species can be found with the quest for truth and love. The signs given to us are people who suicide, the depressed. It is a sign that something has to change in order to promote a world where everyone can open up, be vulnerable, be loving and kind, while at the same time have no one take advatange these people.

 

All the religions have predicted this, and it shall be true. The "dominant" or evil people are being reward, yet will go to hell during the death of this planet, because there is no room for war, anger, revenge and all the strivings for power in a world where technology makes it possible to destroy all of nature by a push of a button. While the loving people, good people shall, shall eventually win. Because our organism will choose the way of love naturally. Our organisms are prepared to suicide for that which is love. Only opening the people towards love, peace protest, passive protest like Ghandi.

 

The nuclear bomb is proof of this last battle. Einstein predicted that the most important decision we shall ever make is to live in a constructive and cooperative planet or destructive and not so cooperative one. Even though he held himself responsible for its destructions, he knew that he could not prevent such technology from arising.

This is a revolution of consciousness, the age of co-creation will not begin unless everyone chooses to open up, be completely vulnerable to eachother and choose to love. Refuse to hate and fear, the qu 'ran advises to only fear god himself and nothing else. For he is the most mercyful of all. Why? Because if you love, people kill cannot denie their inner lack of love. They will want it, it is what connects all people. No one shall remained closed towards love. Even the most evil of all shall open up and let go of their materialistic views, give up all their materialistic attachments. Love connects all human beings.

 

Just view this video if you do not wish to watch the entire zeitgeist documentary. I hope this shall persuade you to atleast look beyond all the main stream media and do your own research on all the corruption around us and spread the word.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rayFK1Jw2M

2:24

and

7:40

Would you trust the wisdom of native american indians which have been around for a very long time or the western societies which has been around for only 200 years or so?

"When you have cut down the last tree, and poisened the last river, you will know that you cannot eat money."

 

Our current economical and political systems are all corrupt and always have been a way for corruption to naturally arise. It is very destructive to everything on our planet, including the people themselves. The growing rates of suicide is just one sign of its promotion for corruption. There have been societies in the past that did not have any recorded events of crime. Watch Zeitgeist moving forward to understand the possibilities for future societies, the perspective by a futurist that is not brainwashed by media such as Starwars that simply put cowboys into spacesuits with their toys of destruction ever present... Drastict changes shall have to be made right now, shall the people wish to grow responsibility for the rising technology.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Everything