Reverse Abdominal Breathing

[ChiDragon]

ok, i reckon that you are right about being in a conversation.(conversation being a 2 way thing where one listens to(and considers) the experience of those in that conversation) but if you were in a conversation on this thread, you would be conversing with folks who do run their mco. and ones who are sharing from their experience. and trying to share some insight to you so it would not be so much of a mystery to you.

 

Yes, people can talk about it all day long. However, I never heard what kind of result they have accomplished.

 

One must have a good foundation with the basic knowledge and held as a standard to compare and evaluate what others are saying. If everybody saying something differently and unsure about the same thing, something must had gone wrong.

 

I am sensing lots of people just repeating what they were told and read without digesting the material; and start a conversation like an expert(including me..???).

Edited August 25, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I'd like to add a note about the muscle control that seems to come with MCO.

Prior, I'd never tried flexing any of the muscles around the sacral area. Now I can, and with some amount of precision. I think that this also speaks to something to be discovered about MCO. I've read people can develop Iron Shirt from it. But I figure you'd have to do it with attention pretty much all day to get that?

 

People can write anything, I would consider what they are saying with caution and an open mind. IMO Anything on paper is not law you know. One must consider who said it and what has been said. How much truth can one get out of it...???

 

PS...

I know I will get some backfire from my signature. Go ahead and fire away...

[realfastcat]

[dawei]

I'd like to add a note about the muscle control that seems to come with MCO.

Prior, I'd never tried flexing any of the muscles around the sacral area. Now I can, and with some amount of precision. I think that this also speaks to something to be discovered about MCO.

I think this is a good point. I recall once wondering how well my Huiyin was truly moving (or responding to) my feeling of flexing. So I went to the source and felt it's movement while doing the breathing. To my surprise, I found that there were times when I was flexing but there was really no movement going on. This was a great lesson to discover; flexing is not necessary moving the area. The unison of the breathing and the movement is important and they support each other well.

 

I often do NAB in the fire cycle to 'turn the Qi' (some call it drumming and beating or some a turbine); After that, I stop its turning; condense it and drop it into the perineum and immediately do RAB in the fire cycle.

[ChiDragon]

Also known as the "Taoist Breathing" or "Pre-Birth Breathing". The stomach contracts as we breathe in, and expands as we breathe out. It is the reverse of the Normal Breathing. It is the breathing method we use before birth, when we are still in the fetus.

 

Breathing in the Womb

Babies do not actually breathe in the womb---at least, not in the usual sense. Fetal lungs are not fully functional, and are not even able to fully expand, until after birth. During the later stages of gestation, the fetus may "practice" breathing by inhaling and exhaling amniotic fluid. The fetal lungs do not process the amniotic fluid, the way fully formed lungs process air, but experts believe this "breathing" is important to fetal lung development. The fetus gets all of its oxygen and nutrients through the placenta and umbilical cord---a process called fetal circulation.

 

Ref link: Fetus Breathing in the womb

Edited August 25, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

People talks a lot about the MCO, does anybody know why it was performed and what it was trying to accomplish...???

[realfastcat]

People talks a lot about the MCO, does anybody know why it was performed and what it was trying to accomplish...???

The first step of practicing Internal Elixir Qigong has been known as Microcosmic Meditation. After completing Microcosmic meditaion, a practitioner will learn Grand Circulation or Macrocosmic Meditation. The purpose of Grand Circulation is to re-open the Heaven Eye to unite the natural spirit and human spirit. This is the ultimate goal of spiritual enlightenment in both Taoism and Buddhism.

[ChiDragon]

The first step of practicing Internal Elixir Qigong has been known as Microcosmic Meditation. After completing Microcosmic meditaion, a practitioner will learn Grand Circulation or Macrocosmic Meditation. The purpose of Grand Circulation is to re-open the Heaven Eye to unite the natural spirit and human spirit. This is the ultimate goal of spiritual enlightenment in both Taoism and Buddhism.

 

Thank you...!!!

How do you know when the Microcosmic Meditation was accomplished...???

[joeblast]

No, It doesn't say because it only flows one way. Actually, there are two meridians, the one in the center of the front of the body is called 任脈(Conception Vessel); and the one in the center of the back is called 督脈(Governor Vessel). The idea was try to have them connected or united together by doing the MCO procedure. I know the description of this procedure but I never really understand what they are saying. But listening to the people who practice it, it seems to me they didn't understand it neither. It was always a mystery to me.

Refer to deadman's manual - note an internal branch of CV arises in the pelvic cavity and ascends along the spine, aside from the external line of CV most of us are familiar with. Also, the second branch of the GV originates in the lower abdomen, winds aroudn the ext genitalia, ascends to the umbilicus, passes through the heart...

 

They are not one-direction only. So the end result is something like this:

 

 

Inseparable. This is why people misunderstand it, because "GV goes up the back and CV down the front."

 

 

Breathing in the Womb

Babies do not actually breathe in the womb---at least, not in the usual sense. Fetal lungs are not fully functional, and are not even able to fully expand, until after birth. During the later stages of gestation, the fetus may "practice" breathing by inhaling and exhaling amniotic fluid. The fetal lungs do not process the amniotic fluid, the way fully formed lungs process air, but experts believe this "breathing" is important to fetal lung development. The fetus gets all of its oxygen and nutrients through the placenta and umbilical cord---a process called fetal circulation.

That's a limited scope - in "fetal breathing" the fetus facilitates blood flow through the umbilicus via abdominal motion - hence the term "embryonic breathing" that is oft the prerequisite to things like the MCO. The context of that article treats breath as congruent to air.

[ChiDragon]

I see the wordings are full of confusion. Let's not go into a lengthy discussion in this thread.

[Birch]

So here is not the place to discuss golden-light-filled OBE's accompanied with spontaneous ecstasy and flying 'dreams' during sleep paralysis then :-p?

 

I mentioned the muscle issues because prior to MCO, these things were simply not part of my conscious awareness. How they became so - and over what period of time and practice 'regimen' is worth discussing IMO. It's a discussion forum

 

And paradoxically, the sharing currently going on seems to be doing more (for me) to enhance understanding of this practice than several previous threads on the subject

 

Glad you are here Chi Dragon to give your POV!

[joeblast]

Well, I don't believe Chunyi Lin directs his attention to his dantian all the time and if he does RAB all the time, I don't see why Dennis Lewis would claim it being "extremely important when undertaking reverse breathing to be clear about where one puts one's attention."

Chunyi Lin isnt your average bear, and he's put in sufficient effort that he doesnt need to give harmonious motion much active 'air-time' from his awareness. A lot of it is training muscle memory, to begin with. I personally advocate devoting a measure of times dedicated to building muscle memory through rote repetition - with your awareness focused on what it is that you are doing - because if you're just going through the motions then you are deriving but a fraction of the benefit.

 

*That* is why you need to be clear about where your awareness is focused. Not placing enough importance on it leads to not picking up on bad habits as they appear and such. The awareness component is every bit as important as the 'correct physical motion' - if only we understood that as kids learning things growing up Without placing the emphasis (at least for a time) on the proper motion, you're not providing ample...space....from which the shift in awareness can take place - from the effort-ed to the effort-less.

Natural abdominal breathing is taught first because it is the better way to teach proprioception - and that enhanced proprioception is an absolute requirement when the efficiency (energetic, cardiovascular, what have you) of your breath begins to make significant "bandwith upgrades" to the infrastructure. Like a child learning to walk, learning to do the reverse breath motions will usually take some time and effort before proficiency is gained and the motions begin to feel...natural, no pun intended If you need to switch, take a few moments/breaths with no particular focus, and then slowly begin the motion from the psoas/diaphragm overlap, just like with natural breathing the starting point is the same, but the ensuing motion isnt.

 

 

ChiDragon, conversations ebb and flow, and with "many topics" veritably and inextricably intertwined, its tough to confine oneself to a particular subsection of a given topic. I see no reason to avoid talking because some confusion exists; imho that is the opposite of appropriate action - why leave the confusion be when a light can be shined on it, particulars clarified? Often our own ideas and positions become clarified, even just by the iteration!

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon, conversations ebb and flow, and with "many topics" veritably and inextricably intertwined, its tough to confine oneself to a particular subsection of a given topic. I see no reason to avoid talking because some confusion exists; imho that is the opposite of appropriate action - why leave the confusion be when a light can be shined on it, particulars clarified? Often our own ideas and positions become clarified, even just by the iteration!

 

 

This was really threw me off. I had never seen anything like it.

Refer to deadman's manual - note an internal branch of CV arises in the pelvic cavity and ascends along the spine, aside from the external line of CV most of us are familiar with. Also, the second branch of the GV originates in the lower abdomen, winds aroudn the ext genitalia, ascends to the umbilicus, passes through the heart...

 

Here are the diagrams for the CV and GV meridians. I don't see anything as the way you have described.

 

Ref link: CV & GV Meridians

Edited August 29, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

This was really threw me off. I had never seen anything like it.

Why?

 

You said you have practice Qigong for 30 years... but you have never heard such things as this??? Oh, I forget... Qi is chaotic; MCO is a mystery; Shen is ignored...

 

I hope you can understand what is going on here.... or are you the last to know?

[ChiDragon]

Why?

 

You said you have practice Qigong for 30 years... but you have never heard such things as this??? Oh, I forget... Qi is chaotic; MCO is a mystery; Shen is ignored...

 

I hope you can understand what is going on here.... or are you the last to know?

 

Hey, you have a tendency to go along with anything and it doesn't have to be logical neither.

Edited August 29, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Eto]

joeblast: Thanks for your reply!

 

Damn, this site is a gold mine of information

[dawei]

Hey, you have a tendency to go along with anything and it doesn't have to be logical neither.

Imagine running the MCO in another person; you have to know which path and where to root it (it's not always in the LDT). Logic can be a barrier with such things.

[joeblast]

This was really threw me off. I had never seen anything like it.

 

 

Here are the diagrams for the CV and GV meridians. I don't see anything as the way you have described.

 

Ref link: CV & GV Meridians

You are also not looking at the source I specified I havent seen much of these particulars elsewhere, not that I've looked exhaustively...

 

http://www.acupuncture.com.au/education/meridians/ren-meridian.html

 

I cant recommend Deadman's manual enough if you're interesting in these particulars - it really gives you a good understanding of primary pathways vs secondary vs sinew path, etc.

 

 

 

joeblast: Thanks for your reply!

 

Damn, this site is a gold mine of information

you're very welcome _/\_

 

this place suuuure is

[ChiDragon]

You are also not looking at the source I specified I havent seen much of these particulars elsewhere, not that I've looked exhaustively...

 

http://www.acupuncture.com.au/education/meridians/ren-meridian.html

 

I cant recommend Deadman's manual enough if you're interesting in these particulars - it really gives you a good understanding of primary pathways vs secondary vs sinew path, etc.

 

Refer to deadman's manual - note

1. an internal branch of CV arises in the pelvic cavity and ascends along the spine, aside from the external line of CV most of us are familiar with.

 

2.Also, the second branch of the GV originates in the lower abdomen, winds aroudn the ext genitalia, ascends to the umbilicus, passes through the heart...

 

I don't see the things in bold are shown in the diagram.

[GreytoWhite]

2. In Tai Ji Quan, RB was never mentioned in the practice. As I mention this before, RB is not a Taoist breathing method. Tai Ji Quan was developed by a Taoist. The Shaolin monks and Kung Fu artists were using this method a lot to protect their internal organs.

 

Quoi?

 

Damn CD mind passing some of that reefer this way?

[dawei]

Quoi?

 

Damn CD mind passing some of that reefer this way?

He does not share so easily but he tries to tell you what your missing

[doc benway]

In Tai Ji Quan, RB was never mentioned in the practice.

 

Do you mean to say that your Tai Ji Quan Shifu never mentioned the practice?

Or do you mean that you have not come across it in your reading?

[joeblast]

I don't see the things in bold are shown in the diagram.

http://www.amazon.com/Manual-Acupuncture-Peter-Deadman/dp/0951054651/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314670675&sr=8-1

here you go, man *thumbsup* there you can see the diagram! I can only post up so much freebie of that, as others have made agreements to show certain portions. if there's others locations of it, I dont know, but there's the whole knot of the tcm take.

 

as to how much of it shines forth in practice and in daily life, well...there's ten thousand and some million little subtleties. are you disagreeing based on your practice telling you this is not so? you can say very similar things as what you are saying without sounding quite so definitive and thereby a little more...gracious?

 

/\

[ChiDragon]

Do you mean to say that your Tai Ji Quan Shifu never mentioned the practice?

Or do you mean that you have not come across it in your reading?

 

I am sorry to disappoint you, my answer is yes to both of your questions.

Edited August 30, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Ref link: MCO-1

 

Q: 请问练习小周天时是否一定要是逆腹式呼吸？用腹式呼吸可以练习小周天吗？

Q: May I ask must I use reverse abdominal breathing for practicing MCO-1? Can I use abdominal breathing to practice MCO-1?

A: 大小周天，一般指内丹术功法，“练精化气”、“练气化神”，“练神还虚”三步功法，总称为内丹术。大小周天是其中的一、二步功法。周天功经过几千年的流传，又经过多少练功家的整理提高，已明确是使经气在身体内按经络路线循环、周转。小周天（练精化气）就是指内气从下丹田开始，循督脉而上，顺任脉而下，过三关沟通任督。心肾相交，水火既济，使精气充实起来，就可以达到防病祛病的目的。小周天，又叫子午周天。 大周天（练气化神）是在小周天的基础上进一步练奇经八脉、十二经脉全部通调，使神和气密切结合，意气相随，内气可以通达全身，真气充盈，则心宽体健。大周天，又叫卯 酉周天。 “子午”“卯酉”的含义是：子为北，午为南，好比人身体的前后，而前后的主要经脉是任督，任督相通为小周天；卯为东， 酉为西，好比人体左右四肢，而左右四肢为十二正经起始点，十二正经通为大周天。 小周天，练功时采取卧式或坐式，意守丹田，自然呼吸，或腹式呼吸，当内气在丹田发动后，丹田部位一般会产生热气流的感觉，这时用意默默地想着它，随着它，这股热流的感觉就会从丹田部位往下伸至会阴穴，再向后流经尾闾穴，循督脉向上，经夹脊、玉枕到百会穴。然后行至下丹田，如此循任督经络之周天循环，就是小周天功法。

 

A: MCO-1, to practice, it can be laying or sitting down, focus on the Dan Tian, breathe naturally or abdominal breathing(shown in bold).

Edited August 30, 2011 by ChiDragon