Reverse Abdominal Breathing

[Aetherous]

 

Honestly.

[doc benway]

I am sorry to disappoint you, my answer is yes to both of your questions.

I'm not disappointed at all but I have a better understanding of your level of training and understanding.

 

What breathing pattern were you taught to use when learning how to generate Fa Jin?

Thanks

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[ChiDragon]

You can use Toshihiko Yayamas method and gather Qi between your hands form a ball and practise the MCO. Nothing to bother about abdominal breathing or reverse breathing here, but reverse Breathing is a further level of abdominal breathing.

 

When you can breath deep- you have good chance to archieve natural reverse breathing - well how you find it... well you will get respiratory problems like something is cut off your breathing while before you feel the breath is deep and reach all places in the body. If you not follow your body and change breathing or stop meditation then Sayonara. After that the reverse stay reverse as long you are calm and the things you confront, do and perceive not destabilize you.

 

Q

 

Thank you for pointing out the critical point of RAB. I am not really against RAB for skilled practitioners if they choose. IMO Like they said it makes no difference in the benefits for MCO-1. If people come out yelling and screaming recommending to use RAB without mentioning not for beginners, it was absurd.

[Aetherous]

IMO Like they said it makes no difference in the benefits for MCO-1.

 

No one actually said that...and if anyone did, they'd be wrong.

[dawei]

If people come out yelling and screaming recommending to use RAB without mentioning not for beginners, it was absurd.

If people come out yelling and screaming ANY recommendation of breathing in MCO without mentioning to get a proper teacher, is the problem. Whether one does NAB or RAB it should not just be done by reading from a book or internet. Both should have proper guidance since both have issues to be aware of. In this regard, RAB is not to be discouraged more than NAB. The proper course should be to get proper guidance and use the proper breathing for the practice. If this is followed even a beginner can learn RAB. Its coordination is harder for some and so NAB may be recommended at first but this just goes back to proper guidance.

 

And as Scotty said... there is a difference in regards to the MCO-1.

[ChiDragon]

I'm not disappointed at all but I have a better understanding of your level of training and understanding.

 

What breathing pattern were you taught to use when learning how to generate Fa Jin?

Thanks

 

I grant you that to have a good teacher to get one initiated is a must. It's really meaningless to argue having a teacher or not. The rest is how much can the student absorb and comprehend.

 

Let me use a little common sense to answer your question. Using the RAB to Fa Jin is not as effective as using NAB because all the energy were concentrated on the abdomen by muscle contraction. When one is in motion, it would be difficult to control the breathing while the energy was being used elsewhere.

 

In Nei Kung practice, the muscles are being prepared for external punishment. RAB is very good to harden the abdominal muscles; so, the internal organs can be protected and the abdomen was able to take a great impact as well. When someone is doing Fa Jin, one need to breathe as freely as one can be to control the breathing in a natural manner. Unless one is standing still, otherwise, RAB is not feasible for someone who is in constant motion.

[zerostao]

ho hum er i mean hen ha

CD " RAB is not feasible for someone who is in constant motion."

i use reverse breathing while i am playing baguazhang and i am in constant motion.

and

"When one is in motion, it would be difficult to control the breathing while the energy was being used elsewhere. "

nope , not at all. second nature.

think the caligraphy brush that never leaves the paper. effortless and smooth. art.

[ChiDragon]

ho hum er i mean hen ha

CD " RAB is not feasible for someone who is in constant motion."

i use reverse breathing while i am playing baguazhang and i am in constant motion.

and

"When one is in motion, it would be difficult to control the breathing while the energy was being used elsewhere. "

nope , not at all. second nature.

think the caligraphy brush that never leaves the paper. effortless and smooth. art.

Well, I will say RAB gives a very strong and effective blow at a strike. Indeed, RAB still restricts the breathing a little bit in a way. That was what I mean by "it was not feasible".

[doc benway]

I grant you that to have a good teacher to get one initiated is a must. It's really meaningless to argue having a teacher or not. The rest is how much can the student absorb and comprehend.

 

Let me use a little common sense to answer your question. Using the RAB to Fa Jin is not as effective as using NAB because all the energy were concentrated on the abdomen by muscle contraction. When one is in motion, it would be difficult to control the breathing while the energy was being used elsewhere.

 

In Nei Kung practice, the muscles are being prepared for external punishment. RAB is very good to harden the abdominal muscles; so, the internal organs can be protected and the abdomen was able to take a great impact as well. When someone is doing Fa Jin, one need to breathe as freely as one can be to control the breathing in a natural manner. Unless one is standing still, otherwise, RAB is not feasible for someone who is in constant motion.

You didn't answer my question.

What breathing pattern did your Shifu teach you when learning how to develop Fa Jin?

[ChiDragon]

You didn't answer my question.

What breathing pattern did your Shifu teach you when learning how to develop Fa Jin?

 

You can find my answer in the previous post in of the threads. I had stated that in my experience, RAB was not mentioned as a requirement in Tai Ji practice but breathe naturally. I think you want me to say no. However, for being breathed naturally, RAB is possible under certain circumstances. I hope that will satisfy your question.

 

PS...

I am looking at things microscopically, while you are looking at macroscopically. If you would like to continue to discuss things in this manner to kill time. I glad to be here shooting the breeze with you....

Edited August 30, 2011 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

You can find my answer in the previous post in of the threads. I had stated that in my experience, RAB was not mentioned as a requirement in Tai Ji practice but breathe naturally. I think you want me to say no. However, for being breathed naturally, RAB is possible under certain circumstances. I hope that will satisfy your question.

 

PS...

I am looking at things microscopically, while you are looking at macroscopically. If you would like to continue to discuss things in this manner to kill time. I glad to be here shooting the breeze with you....

You still haven't answered my very simple question which makes me think that you don't want to for some reason. That's fine. You don't have to. I asked to gain an understanding as to what level of training you have achieved with your Shifu.

 

Your comments about reverse abdominal breathing and Tai Ji Quan tell me that you don't understand how and why it is used (and essential) in developing martial Tai Ji Quan skills. That's fine. Not everyone has the opportunity to learn Tai Ji Quan from a teacher that understands the martial training. Just because you haven't learned something in your books or from your teacher doesn't mean the 鬼佬 don't have good teachers!

 

You really ought to spend more time studying Tai Ji Quan and Dao meditation with a Shifu before considering yourself an authority on those subjects. They are not equivalent to Qi Gong.

[ChiDragon]

You still haven't answered my very simple question which makes me think that you don't want to for some reason. That's fine. You don't have to. I asked to gain an understanding as to what level of training you have achieved with your Shifu.

 

Your comments about reverse abdominal breathing and Tai Ji Quan tell me that you don't understand how and why it is used (and essential) in developing martial Tai Ji Quan skills. That's fine. Not everyone has the opportunity to learn Tai Ji Quan from a teacher that understands the martial training. Just because you haven't learned something in your books or from your teacher doesn't mean the 鬼佬 don't have good teachers!

 

You really ought to spend more time studying Tai Ji Quan and Dao meditation with a Shifu before considering yourself an authority on those subjects. They are not equivalent to Qi Gong.

 

In that case, I have to disqualify myself to engage further discussion with such a prejudicial conclusion. Especially, the last statement will reveal how much one has learned from his teacher.

[doc benway]

Especially, the last statement will reveal how much one has learned from his teacher.

I agree.

[joeblast]

You can find my answer in the previous post in of the threads. I had stated that in my experience, RAB was not mentioned as a requirement in Tai Ji practice but breathe naturally. I think you want me to say no. However, for being breathed naturally, RAB is possible under certain circumstances. I hope that will satisfy your question.

 

PS...

I am looking at things microscopically, while you are looking at macroscopically. If you would like to continue to discuss things in this manner to kill time. I glad to be here shooting the breeze with you....

Not being taught the integrated breathwork normally means your sifu hasnt opened much of his book to you at all. Beginners are told to breathe naturally while other things are focused on, then the breath integration with motion can be done more efficiently once the basics of movement are achieved Not to personally knock you, just saying that is usually the reason a sifu will tell a student "just breathe naturally." Its a nice way of saying "we'll get to that later, that's not the focus of what we're presently working on."

 

Ironic you mention prejudice, because your posts have been prejudiced against anything beyond what you've read and experienced. The rebuttals, if anything, were prejudiced against your blinders and nothing more - rigid ideas of concepts and phenomena are a huge roadblock to progress as you walk your path. When confronted with ideas one hasnt come across before, they are best approached with an open mind - better to ask "is this possible, if yes, how so" instead of saying "this appears to be impossible" and close the book right there.

 

 

 

dawei,

With regard to paths, I believe the dual/nondual nature of flows (including the reference to the counterintuitive segments of gv & cv) manifests in the water path, although I understand it differently than you described back in post..#14. As I understand the reverse fire path is Wind, which can be utilized to cool fire but not in the same fashion as water. The water path (from my practice, understanding, reading) is nondual using both directions as in the eskimo yo-yo and then the other component is up the thrusting vessel. I've had better results with practicing that path than the water path as YJM has taught, e.g. down CV, entering at huiyin and up TV from there, it just feels more natural to me. Havent needed to utilize wind to cool fire, although perhaps that because there's another practice I was taught that utilizes that wind path, but I wont mention that here aside from just a vague reference

[ChiDragon]

Not being taught the integrated breathwork normally means your sifu hasnt opened much of his book to you at all. Beginners are told to breathe naturally while other things are focused on, then the breath integration with motion can be done more efficiently once the basics of movement are achieved Not to personally knock you, just saying that is usually the reason a sifu will tell a student "just breathe naturally." Its a nice way of saying "we'll get to that later, that's not the focus of what we're presently working on."

 

Ironic you mention prejudice, because your posts have been prejudiced against anything beyond what you've read and experienced. The rebuttals, if anything, were prejudiced against your blinders and nothing more - rigid ideas of concepts and phenomena are a huge roadblock to progress as you walk your path. When confronted with ideas one hasnt come across before, they are best approached with an open mind - better to ask "is this possible, if yes, how so" instead of saying "this appears to be impossible" and close the book right there.

 

I do appreciate you took a neutral stand. What I am tried to do is not to lump everything together that we have learned as one whole system. The are definitions and terminology in each system. They must be understood thoroughly to their basic smallest component in order to isolate them from one another. If the terms are not any different, then why call them with a different name. I grant that you all have a very broad knowledge of the martial arts. However, knowing everything in general and stay at a gross level will lead nowhere. To demonstrate one's ability of comprehension one must narrow it down to the finest level by definitions. Thus anybody can come in and throw in what one has learned by saying this is it and that is it with lots of crazy and funny names was just chaotic. IMO

 

I bet you nobody, here, can distinguish the difference between Chi King and Nei Kung. I dare someone give me a distinction between the two.

Edited August 31, 2011 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

/waves hand back and forth, slams palm on table...smile, sip tea

 

/legs fall off table

 

/on to next scene in movie

[Birch]

"Chi King and Nei Kung. I dare someone give me a distinction between the two."

 

Oh no! I will have to accept that dare. I don't mind showing myself up if it gets someone else to give the proper definition :-)

 

As far as I have understood 'Nei Kung' is purely internal (as opposed to 'Wei' anything at all, so no 'external' movement whatsoever)

 

So the first idea I have about 'Nei Kung' is that there is nothing external about it. The second thing I figure about Nei Kung is that it uses specific 'forms' that are intentionally invoked/cultivated in order to effect changes in the overall human system. As far as I can tell, the forms range from emotions, to visualisations/thought forms to leading intent with no 'form' applied per se. If I were to state the 'biggest' difference between 'Nei Kung' and 'Chi Kung' it would have to be the application of intentional forms.

 

'Chi Kung' in my current understanding may include both internal and external 'movements' and does not apply intentional forms, just awareness, but does indeed lead it, through intent into patterns of awareness.

 

And why bother doing that? Well, my current understanding is that if you don't 'force' or rather 'cultivate' patterns of awareness, you might end up missing something :-) Why? Well, I have an idea about that too but I won't get into it here because it's to do with the 'e-word'...Then there's that whole more recent stuff about neural pathways and left-right brain hemisphere balancing, but then I'd be mixing up references a bit too much :-)

[doc benway]

What I am tried to do is not to lump everything together that we have learned as one whole system.

 

 

I bet you nobody, here, can distinguish the difference between Chi King and Nei Kung. I dare someone give me a distinction between the two.

So you are not trying lump together but then you dare someone to distinguish the two?

 

 

One fundamental difference between Qi Gong and Nei Gong is how the breath is used.

Another is how the body is used.

A third is how the mind is used.

A fourth is the objective

.

.

.

and so it goes....

[dawei]

dawei,

With regard to paths, I believe the dual/nondual nature of flows (including the reference to the counterintuitive segments of gv & cv) manifests in the water path, although I understand it differently than you described back in post..#14. As I understand the reverse fire path is Wind, which can be utilized to cool fire but not in the same fashion as water. The water path (from my practice, understanding, reading) is nondual using both directions as in the eskimo yo-yo and then the other component is up the thrusting vessel. I've had better results with practicing that path than the water path as YJM has taught, e.g. down CV, entering at huiyin and up TV from there, it just feels more natural to me. Havent needed to utilize wind to cool fire, although perhaps that because there's another practice I was taught that utilizes that wind path, but I wont mention that here aside from just a vague reference

Yes... I know that YJM teaches the reverse path as "Wind"; My Medical Qigong training teaches it as "Water". I almost didn't want to post it at the time because I know of the different uses by different teachings. It's good to hear experiences as yours. Thanks for sharing and clarifying.

[dawei]

So you are not trying lump together but then you dare someone to distinguish the two?

 

 

From Day 1, he has been the Shifu of Lumping into One... that was my original objection in the beginning and to this day... well... and his denial of it along the entire game... and the bob and weave or rope-a-dope of perfection...

[Birch]

From Day 1, he has been the Shifu of Lumping into One... that was my original objection in the beginning and to this day... well... and his denial of it along the entire game... and the bob and weave or rope-a-dope of perfection...

 

----cheerleading alert -------

 

Sure, but what a lot of awesome posts have there been in response! Chi-Dragon is like an anti-shill/non-cheerleading, "yang" to the "yin" of qi-nei-gong info. IMO :-) I've been reading this forum for what seems like ages and until folks started being a bit opposed to various stuff from a practice POV it was starting to get a bit wishy-washy (IMO) Happy to see some stepping up as a result :-)

 

----cheerleading alert -------

[ChiDragon]

"Chi King and Nei Kung. I dare someone give me a distinction between the two."

 

Oh no! I will have to accept that dare. I don't mind showing myself up if it gets someone else to give the proper definition :-)

 

-K-

You inspired me with your open-mindedness, objectiveness, and the willingness to accept new ideas where they seem fit. I would like to express my unbiased approach to obtain my knowledge. I do have a habit of going to the origin of the source to get the immanent and permanent information to get to the heart of it. Things related to Chi Kung and Martial Arts, I will go to the native source. However, anything related to modern science, I will go to the western source. It is because my heart tells me that the information from the original source couldn't be less accurate than the source from the aftermath.

 

The reason I like to go the origin of the source, so, I do not have to deal with any mistranslations. Also, the words are straight from the horse's mouth. If people start telling me that I full of you know what, then I really have to start thinking about why the things they are saying were not uniform. Thus there must be an answer which has to come from somewhere to justify the uniqueness of each system. Sometimes, I had encounter the native sources do have errors due to the misunderstanding of the author and misinterpreting the original concepts. In this case, I have to use my own intuition and judgment to filter out the unwanted ideas by trial and error until I get it right.

 

Just to be fair, recently I had been reading some native source using modern science in explaining Chi Kung. Fortunately, I had read the western science book as my original source ahead of time to establish my basic foundation to detect the errors in my secondhand native source. To me, regardless of a translation into what language, there are always some thoughts are difficult to be translated accurately. Hence, if one goes to the original source will have less errors.

 

I was told many time to learn the things from a master. FYI I had talk to some masters about Chi Kung, somehow, the words came out from the mouths are all different and the stuffs I had read are different too. Well, how can I determine who is more correct than the others. Indeed, the more I read, then I will see some sort of a pattern which reveal the similarities in their words. Thus that's a kind of formulating an uniform conceptual agreement. Perhaps, this may not be an acceptable approach by some of you; but to me it gives me some kind of confidence of understanding the basic concept.

[joeblast]

just for you chidragon

 

 

GV second branch

 

 

GV third branch

[Maddie]

I've practiced RAB quite a bit in the past, but I want to make sure my theoretical understanding is sound. So from what I understand about RAB theoretically is that it not only builds qi, but also helps to store it efficiently. Is this a correct understanding? Are there any other benefits as well?