Reverse Abdominal Breathing

[ChiDragon]

Both NAB and RAB will massage your internal organs. The qi is never store anywhere, the RAB is only tighten up the abdominal muscle to protect the internal organs during a combat situation. For example, you can see the Chi Kung performers tightened the abdominal muscles to take a stick blow to the abdomen. When the abdominal muscles and other muscles are tightened, they act like a shield for the whole body. That is why it was called the iron shirt.

Edited May 10, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

Both NAB and RAB will massage your internal organs. The qi is never store anywhere, the RAB is only tighten up the abdominal muscle to protect the internal organs during a combat situation. For example, you can see the Chi Kung performers tightened the abdominal muscles to take a stick blow to the abdomen. When the abdominal muscles and other muscles are tightened, they act like a shield for the whole body. That is why it was called the iron shirt.

Oh, its been a while since I read the book but I could have sworn Dr. Yang said it stores qi too.

[ChiDragon]

Anybody can said anything. It is up to the reader to accept it or not. I do understand how my body works by some reliable sources, but not just by going what I had been told. Perhaps, you may understand how the body works based on somebody else's understanding. I know the body energy will be diminished in seconds when it was not used. The kind of body energy I am talking about is adenosine triphosphate(ATP).

[Maddie]

Anybody can said anything. It is up to the reader to accept it or not. I do understand how my body works by some reliable sources, but not just by going what I had been told. Perhaps, you may understand how the body works based on somebody else's understanding. I know the body energy will be diminished in seconds when it was not used. The kind of body energy I am talking about is adenosine triphosphate(ATP).

I believe ATP would be a sort of jing.

[ChiDragon]

If you read about it online, just google "ATP", it may change your mind about it for being "jing"

[Maddie]

If you read about it online, just google "ATP", it may change your mind about it for being "jing"

lol I'm very familiar with what ATP is, I am in med school after all ;-)

[Wu Ming Jen]

Blow up a balloon (EXHALE) the belly naturally expands, This is reverse breathing ,bringing the maximum force out from the body, exhale, belly and energy expands, emit energy, move something heavy forward . Inhale lift something heavy, swallow energy landing on the body, belly contracts lift, rise, contract and so on. How to mix prenatal and postnatal energy is ALSO RBM.

 

When we are babies we breath from the belly and move from (center) the lower dan tien. As we get older the center moves to chest level and we chest breath. The last breath is from the mouth. Reverse this process bring center and breathing back to the lower location this is called going the other way.

 

Buddhist breathing has its place as well depends on what inaction / intention one is doing. natural breathing to me is with the lungs, chest level. My natural breathing is now RBM. The sage breaths from his heals, the whole body is involved in breathing.

 

I trust anything Master Yang Jwing Ming teaches I know him long time, his information is a treasure to all modern martial artist.

[ChiDragon]

lol I'm very familiar with what ATP is, I am in med school after all ;-)

 

If so, I wouldn't say that ATP as JIng. Do you want to give it second try.......???

Edited May 10, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

 

If so, I wouldn't sayl ATP as JIng. Do you want to give it second try.......???

well since ATP is coming from the western as opposed to eastern point of view pinning it down can be a bit ambiguous, but at the very least I'll give my rationale for classifying ATP as jing. If you make the distinction of jing being electrochemical potential energy and qi being electromagnetic energy then you would have to consider ATP as jing. I would see the qi coming from the ATP going through the electron transfer chain and then giving off that electron in the process of turning into ADP. I would venture to say the qi is produced when that electron is given off. At least that's may take on it.

[joeblast]

I've practiced RAB quite a bit in the past, but I want to make sure my theoretical understanding is sound. So from what I understand about RAB theoretically is that it not only builds qi, but also helps to store it efficiently. Is this a correct understanding? Are there any other benefits as well?

if you examine the yinyang dynamics of RAB vs NAB, a contraction yang, relaxation yin - NAB contains a good balance of the two, very harmonious - so there are yin phases going at the same time as yang phases. RAB is different in that all of the yang phases happen on inhale, yin phases all on exhale. So if you graph out a bunch of sine waves, there's a bunch that overlap for NAB, and for RAB the amplitudes all align constructively, thus the high amplitude potential from the reverse breath.

 

that's why spending some anapana time working on the timing of breath is important, it allows you to more efficiently combine the amplitudes, cultivate the phase coherence of the mechanisms.

 

"storing efficiently" is dependent on how well you can enter complete and utter stillness

[ChiDragon]

well since ATP is coming from the western as opposed to eastern point of view pinning it down can be a bit ambiguous, but at the very least I'll give my rationale for classifying ATP as jing. If you make the distinction of jing being electrochemical potential energy and qi being electromagnetic energy then you would have to consider ATP as jing. I would see the qi coming from the ATP going through the electron transfer chain and then giving off that electron in the process of turning into ADP. I would venture to say the qi is produced when that electron is given off. At least that's may take on it.

 

How can ATP is coming from the western as opposed to eastern point of view pinning it down can be a bit ambiguous...??? The western view of ATP was described down to a microscopic level. ATP was described as a form of biochemical energy which was generated by decomposing the glucose by the oxygen in the muscle cells; and only lasted for few second if it was not utilized. The ATP energy is not a form of substance.

 

In TCM, Jing is an essence which is the basic unite of the body. The basic unite of the body is the pre -natal Jing. The vitalization of pre-natal Jing must be maintained by post-natal Jing. In western science, the basic unite of the body is the body cell. The vitalization of the body cells is also maintained by the glucose and the oxygen. Hence, I would say that a "pre-natal Jing" is analogous to a "body cell". Since ATP is not a substance, therefore, it cannot be equivalent to a body cell or Jing.

 

There is another contradiction, the ATP was generated within the body cells by "Cell Respiration". Therefore, one may not and cannot conclude by stating that the ATP is analogous to "pre-natal Jing" or "body cell".

 

 

 

Added to edit:

Replace "pre" with "post" for the natal jing.

Edited May 10, 2013 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

Since ATP is not a substance, therefore, it cannot be equivalent to a body cell or Jing.

 

I lol'd I think you got your head stuck in your...book again.

[ChiDragon]

I lol'd I think you got your head stuck in your...book again.

My books give me better reasons. What kind of reasons can you give me....???

[Maddie]

 

Since ATP is not a substance,

 

 

 

Really?

[ChiDragon]

Really?

Yessssssssssssssss. Unless you can stated otherwise.

[Maddie]

Yessssssssssssssss. Unless you can stated otherwise.

 

 

 

 

sub·stance (sbstns)

n.

1.

a. That which has mass and occupies space; matter.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/substance

 

 

 

ATP consists of adenosine — composed of an adenine ring and a ribose sugar — and three phosphate groups (triphosphate). The phosphoryl groups, starting with the group closest to the ribose, are referred to as the alpha (α), beta (β), and gamma (γ) phosphates. Consequently, it is closely related to the adenosine nucleotide, a monomer of RNA. ATP is highly soluble in water and is quite stable in solutions between pH 6.8–7.4, but is rapidly hydrolysed at extreme pH. Consequently, ATP is best stored as an anhydrous salt.^[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate

 

ATP is a molecule made which in turn is made of atoms, which have weight and take up space so fit the definition of substance.

[joeblast]

Really?

yeah, he tried asserting that the diaphragm lifted during reverse breathing inhale some time ago, too *shrugs*

Edited May 10, 2013 by joeblast

[ChiDragon]

The total quantity of ATP in the human body is about 0.2 mole. The majority of ATP is not usually synthesised de novo, but is generated from ADP by the aforementioned processes. Thus, at any given time, the total amount of ATP + ADP remains fairly constant.

The energy used by human cells requires the hydrolysis of 100 to 150 moles of ATP daily, which is around 50 to 75 kg. A human will typically use up his or her body weight of ATP over the course of the day.^[33] This means that each ATP molecule is recycled 500 to 750 times during a single day (100 / 0.2 = 500). ATP cannot be stored, hence its consumption closely follows its synthesis. However a total of around 5g of ATP is used by cell processes at any time in the body.

 

ATP recycling

 

Anyway, ATP cannot be stored as oppose to "pre-natal Jing" which is always there in a preexisted condition. This is the point I was trying to make. I repeat, based on this fact, ATP is not the Jing as you thought it might be.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

yeah, he tried asserting that the diaphragm lifted during reverse breathing inhale some time ago, too *shrugs*

 

I'll say you have a poor memory.

 

Please get the fact straight and handle the discussion in a non-gossip manner.

[Maddie]

 

Anyway, ATP cannot be stored as oppose to "pre-natal Jing" which is always there in a preexisted condition. This is the point I was trying to make. I repeat, based on this fact, ATP is not the Jing as you thought it might be.

 

 

 

I believe ATP would be a sort of jing.

 

Never said it was pre-natal jing, just some kind of jing.

[ChiDragon]

Never said it was pre-natal jing, just some kind of jing.

 

Yes, you didn't. The TCM only mentioned two kinds of Jing, the pre-natal Jing and post-natal Jing and no other Jing as you had preferred as some kind of Jing.

 

Since no other Jing was mentioned in the TCM, and it was stated that the Jing was transformed into qi, then, the "Jing" mentioned here has to be referred to as the "pre-natal Jing" from our parents. Even tough, one may assume that the Jing from other organs but it is still the essential unite of the body. Again, it is still aiming back to the body cell as the smallest unite of the body.

 

 

 

 

 

PS.....

I must admit that I made a mistake, in the above posts, actually what I meant about Jing should be "post-natal" instead of "pre-natal". I will cross it out to make the correction.

 

Sorry, I was correct in the first place. I have made the correction once more.

Edited May 10, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Apech]

I usually start with normal abdominal breathing to establish a rhythm (it feels more natural and relaxed) then switch to reverse ... sometimes this happens without me doing anything ... just of itself ... get good energy movements.

[joeblast]

 

Anyway, ATP cannot be stored as oppose to "pre-natal Jing" which is always there in a preexisted condition. This is the point I was trying to make. I repeat, based on this fact, ATP is not the Jing as you thought it might be.

what the heck are you talking about, it cant be stored. what's the existence all over the body of it? just because the process is dynamic and fluid doesnt mean there is no "storage" - different substances have different shelf lives and the "method of storage" complies.

 

 

I'll say you have a poor memory.

 

Please get the fact straight and handle the discussion in a non-gossip manner.

hah, are you forgetting there's a history here to go back to? dont make me go find it - I only remember because of how preposterous it sounded. of course you can hide behind the language barrier when it is convenient for you to have to backtrack, but...I digress.

[ChiDragon]

what the heck are you talking about, it cant be stored. what's the existence all over the body of it? just because the process is dynamic and fluid doesnt mean there is no "storage" - different substances have different shelf lives and the "method of storage" complies.

 

 

Please go back to Post #93 and read the part about ATP recycling.

Edited May 10, 2013 by ChiDragon

[silent thunder]

Wow do I love this place! Deep bow of gratitude to you all.

 

The forms I use daily, both use RAB and NAB:

Relaxation set, static set, energy ball stance and some energy moving stances use NAB.

While dynamic forms RAB is used.

 

We run energy in both directions, oscillating as the form progresses.

In one form, we start at DT, inhale and run up the Ren channel to the Bai Hui, exhaling down the Du Channel ending again at DT.

This continues for a few cycles and then we change course, inhaling and running energy up the Du to the Bai Hui, exhaling down the Ren channel ending at DT.

 

As I understand it, the use of running up the Ren Channel and down the Du channel, (which was described as going in reverse) is a bit like pushing your hand against the current in a river and is very useful for clearing blockages and opening the channels.

 

A bit like priming a pump before unleashing the joy-fury of my attention-directed, uber love, energy-powa!