lienshan Posted August 24, 2011 Chapter 82 Expentant and then someone First causes the self-made Mother of everything. The can be a lump of earth and overflowing causes the envy-made Classic of everything. This inability to kill heaven and inability to bury earth is the inability to complete yin and yang. The "gentleman" knowing this says: (unreadable bamboo slip) Heaven and Dao value what's completed of weakness and naiveness by benefitting what's giving birth. To appreciate the hard of stabbing the strong is like to profit the soft of assisting the weak. Chapter 83 Below the soil is similar to the word earth. Above the air is similar to the word heaven. Dao is also their character; Early Dawn is their name. Why Dao follows what's duty surely rely on their name. Therefore is the duty completed and itself prolonged. That the sage follows duty does also rely on their name. Therefore is the merit completed and himself not boned. Heaven and earth are nominated side by side independently. Therefore perform their two boats in line not cultivated together. To administer heaven isn't enough because: The lowest height of west and north acts powerful. Earth and heaven are not enough: The highest low of east and south acts powerful. The moreover surplus from the lowest of the not enough from what's highest is like the moreover surplus from the highest of the not enough from what's lowest. What's a Laozi special is the structure of these two lines: To appreciate the hard of stabbing the strong is like to profit the soft of assisting the weak. The moreover surplus from the lowest of the not enough from what's highest is like the moreover surplus from the highest of the not enough from what's lowest. Laozi used this special way of philosophical argueing in many of his chapters. Put into a formula: A is to B like C is to D One of the best know examples is the last line of chapter 25: ren fa di is to di fa tian like tian fa dao is to dao fa zi ran That'll say all the "word-by-word-translators" miss most of Laozi's philosophical pointes. That's why they can't distinguish two Laozi texts from this Huang Lao text: The Great One gives birth to water and the return of water assists the Great One thus completing heaven and the heavenly return is a big assistance thus completing earth. The return of heaven and earth mutually assist thus completing light and spirit. The return of light and spirit mutually assist thus completing yin and yang. The return of yin and yang mutually assist thus completing the four seasons. The return of the four seasons mutually assist thus completing freeze and boil. The return of freeze and boil mutually assist thus completing moisture and fluid. The return of moisture and fluid mutually assist thus completing time and end. Therefore: What's time is the birth of moisture and fluid. What's moisture and fluid is the birth of freeze and boil. What's freeze and boil and what's the four seasons is the birth of yin and yang. What's yin and yang is the birth of light and spirit. What's light and spirit is the birth of heaven and earth. What's heaven and earth is the birth of the Great One. This is why the Great One conceals physical water and moves physical seasons. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 24, 2011 Where did you 'dig up' those extra two chapters? Hehehe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zerostao Posted August 24, 2011 Mh, you don't have the new updated expanded edition with bonus chapters? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted August 24, 2011 ===========Mod Team============ Let's keep the Dao De Jing chapter discussions in the sub-forum we have created for that purpose please. ==========Mod Team Out========== Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lienshan Posted August 25, 2011 Where did you 'dig up' those extra two chapters? Hehehe. They were digged up in Guodian 1993 (were buried 312 BC) but have until now been considered the last part of "the Great One gives birth to water"? I claim, that this socalled last part is in fact two chapters written by Laozi! I recognize his writing style and way of thinking; the basis of my story: The old teacher in the Guodian grave worked until he retired in the Chu capitol Ying 9 km southwards. His job had been to teach the royal children to write. He was interested in philosophy and he made his own private library (the Guodian bamboo slips) this way: He taught the royal Chu children in the royal library. He read aloud (dictated) from different books in the library and the children brushed his dictating word by word on bamboo slips. The dictating was only training and the brushed slips had as so no value, and the teacher kept them afterwards. Childish brushed characters of "the black robe" and other scripts from the royal Chu library ... and of Laozi's manuscript to Tao Teh Ching! That explaines, why there are two versions of chapter 64, where Laozi rewrote changing the term chang wei into wu wei. That explaines, why some of the chapters are full-editted literal pearls, better than the corresponding chapters of Received version, while others seem to be raw material not yet full-editted by Laozi. Like the difference between chapter 83 and chapter 82. And that explaines, why the order of the Guodian chapters isn't like the chapter order of Tao Teh Ching. Am I right or wrong? Tell me why chapter 83 isn't written by Laozi, if you think that I'm wrong? Tell me precisely what isn't "taoist philosophy" in my translation above of that chapter Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 25, 2011 Am I right or wrong? Tell me why chapter 83 isn't written by Laozi, if you think that I'm wrong? Tell me precisely what isn't "taoist philosophy" in my translation above of that chapter Fair hypothisis. Of course, you know that I am unable to speak to the validity of what you suggest as I do not read Chinese. However, I think I will stick with the 81 Chapters for now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lienshan Posted August 26, 2011 I am unable to speak to the validity of what you suggest as I do not read Chinese. I've translated the text from classical chinese into english so what's the problem? The Great One gives birth to water and the return of water assists the Great One thus completing heaven and the heavenly return is a big assistance thus completing earth. The return of heaven and earth mutually assist thus completing light and spirit. The return of light and spirit mutually assist thus completing yin and yang. The return of yin and yang mutually assist thus completing the four seasons. The return of the four seasons mutually assist thus completing freeze and boil. The return of freeze and boil mutually assist thus completing moisture and fluid. The return of moisture and fluid mutually assist thus completing time and end. Therefore: What's time is the birth of moisture and fluid. What's moisture and fluid is the birth of freeze and boil. What's freeze and boil and what's the four seasons is the birth of yin and yang. What's yin and yang is the birth of light and spirit. What's light and spirit is the birth of heaven and earth. What's heaven and earth is the birth of the Great One. This is why the Great One conceals physical water and moves physical seasons. ............................................. I've put in bold what in Da Yi Sheng Shui corresponds to the chapter 83 phrase "surplus": The moreover surplus from the lowest of the not enough from what's highest is like the moreover surplus from the highest of the not enough from what's lowest. That'll say put in short: end is like the birth of the Great One ............................................. The old teacher in the grave was according to the scholars teacher to crownprince Heng, who became Chu King Qing Xiang in 298 BC. His father King Huai became Chu king in 328 BC. The childish Guodian characters could have been brushed by a 10 years old pupil and the different childish hands brushing the Guodian texts belonged maybe to his younger brothers? That'll say the Guodian texts were probably dictated during the years 318 to 312 BC. That'll say Laozi's Tao Teh Ching manuscript was in the library of the Chu capitol Ying in 318 BC. How did it arrive there? Was the legendary gatekeeper from Ying; Or did Laozi die in Ying? If so, then he must have been either a Chu noble or have hold a high office position in Ying? He could have been the director of the library? His literary skills were in fact outstanding, despite the poor english translations, cutting his sentences into slices of 4-5 characters Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted September 12, 2011 I know this is a bit of delayed response, but I finally decided that this post doesn't necessarily belong in the Tao Te Ching section. It's an interesting thread, but what we're addressing in the TTC section are the classic texts, rather than the possible texts. If you have any issues with this, please feel free to contact me. Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
