Immortals (Xian Shi)

[Imperial]

Hm. . . I do understand what you mean. But if a person that is able to control his energy, doesn't that mean he can also morph at will to whatever he wants to be?

[Aetherous]

There are tales of shapeshifters. I think controlling energy (the form that consciousness takes, or rides upon) is easy, you can just imagine you're holding a qi ball in your hand and it is so. Done! But uniting body with mind and spirit, uniting all energy bodies, and being able to fold back up into the Tao (by letting go so much into your natural state), and then getting control to the point that you could morph your physical body from human to any animal of your choosing, safely, for instance...that's waaaaay out of my league. I don't know.

Edited November 28, 2012 by turtle shell

[Wells]

Who is giving the speech in the video?

He is delivering wrong ideas.

Because in theory of Daoism, body is nothing, it can not going up to the heaven with the spirit.

 

Thats THE big question and should be properly discussed here!

 

"Spirit immortals are earth immortals who have continued their cultivation in the earthly realm. They have connected all the parts of their body; they have used lead to replenish mercury; they can channel the refined generative energy to the top of the head; and they can transform the jade nectar into the elixir. Their bodily form has been transmuted into vapor; the five vapors have reverted back into the one primordial vapor and the three yang essences have gathered at the top of the head. When their cultivation is complete, the mundane body is transformed into the subtle body. Their yin residues are purged and they are completely filled with pure yang. A body emerges from the subtle body as they shed their mundane substance and ascend to the immortal lands. Entering the realm of the sacred, they return to the three mountains and leave the dust of the world forever."

"Here the immortal states are actually divided into five levels, named Gui-xian 鬼仙 (the Ghost Immortal), Ren-xian 人仙 (the Human Immortal), De-xian (the Earth Immortal), Shen-xian 神仙 (the Spirit Immortal) and Tien-xian 天仙 (the Heaven Immortal). The achievement of De-xian, Shen-xian and Tien-xian is entirely based on the level of practices toward the yang. But the most important point we have to concern is that those practices will transform the body into various states of immortality.

 

The book Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji lists five classes of immortals:

 

Guǐxiān ("Ghost Immortal"): A person who cultivates too much yin energy. These immortals are likened to Vampires because they drain the life essence of the living, much like the fox spirit. Ghost immortals do not leave the realm of ghosts.

 

Rénxiān ("Human Immortal"): Humans have an equal balance of yin and yang energies, so they have the potential of becoming either a ghost or immortal. Although they continue to hunger and thirst and require clothing and shelter like a normal human, these immortals do not suffer from aging or sickness. Human immortals do not leave the realm of humans. [21] There are many sub-classes of human immortals.

 

Dìxiān ("Earth Immortal"): When the yin is transformed into the pure yang, a true immortal body will emerge that does not need food, drink, clothing or shelter and is not effected by hot or cold temperatures. Earth immortals do not leave the realm of earth. These immortals are forced to stay on earth until they shed their human form.

 

Shénxiān ("Spirit Immortal"): The immortal body of the earthbound class will eventually change into vapor through further practice. They have supernatural powers and can take on the shape of any object. These immortals must remain on earth acquiring merit by teaching mankind about the Tao. Spirit immortals do not leave the realm of spirits. Once enough merit is accumulated, they are called to heaven by a celestial decree.

 

Tiānxiān ("Celestial Immortal") – Spirit immortals who are summoned to heaven are given the minor office of water realm judge. Over time, they are promoted to oversee the earth realm and finally become administrators of the celestial realm. These immortals have the power to travel back and forth between the earthly and celestial realms."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAnpFHU87Og

 

Let me quote Waysun Liao in his great new book "Tao: The Way Of God":

But the highest level some of the old masters achieved is what they called "daytime ascending". They could raise their energy so high that they could dissolve even their bodies into pure energy and just vanish and turn into a "saint".

 

It's the most highest level of immortality and the way to achieve it is to raise the Frequenzy and the Amplitude of your Chi (= your Energy Wave Function) until the matter of your body dissolves into pure energy and then you can take it with you.

 

When regarding the evidence it seems to me that achieving immortality while being alive and actually transforming the material body into energy and staying forever in this energy-body was and is THE ultimate goal of Taoist Alchemy all along!

And the popular more known books and texts which describe the complicated way of creating a body of energy in your tantien, then transporting it outside of yourself and transferring your consciousness into it sounds in contrast to that like a lesser way or even like a fantasy to me!

Btw, as far as I know, only the Wu-Liu Pai school (many of the popular Eva Wong's books are about the theories of that school!) and that branch-school of them (I don't know the name anymore) which theories were written about in Charles Luk's book "Taoist Yoga" are the schools which follow that "Creating Shen-baby and transferring consciousness into it"-goal.

I even read that this first Shen-baby (when it's already outside of you but still connected to you) is in fact YIN and has to give birth to ANOTHER Shen-baby and that this second and final Shen-Baby would be YANG and that you had to trasfer your consciousness into that second Shen-Baby! I also saw the corresponding old pictures to that aspect of the theory!

Most importently, the Wu-Liu Pai school is as a matter of fact NOT PURELY TAOIST (according to their own website!), they created their own practices and theories out of "the best stuff" of Taoist and BUDDHIST informations! So the goal of creating a "Shen Baby" is maybe NOT Taoist and never was!

Edited November 28, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

Please enjoy this PDF. file of an essay of 12 pages written by Dennis Willmont, a great and clear overview about the roots in the theory of Taoism and in it's resulting practice, Taichi!

I HIGHLY recommend reading it if you want to understand the apparent true beginnings and origins of the Taoist worlview and the resulting consequences for the practical way of life of the Taoist,

if he wants to achieve IMMORTALITY!

Ritual, Sacrifice and Alchemy in Taijiquan.pdf

Edited November 28, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

So, according to this essay Taoist Alchemy is about re-fusing your Mind with your Life to stabilize them, so they don't leak away. This results in immortality.

In this context, Mind goes up and is in this context seen as "fire", "shen" and "yang", Life goes down and is in this context considered as "water", "jing" and "yin".

Both are leaking out of their body because of this, or better: Life leaks out and Mind burns up (for this analogy!).

When you refuse them to your Original Chi, the result is "TAICHI", fused Yin & Yang and in fact beyond Yin & Yang! This Original Chi (=Yuan Chi) is in this analogy also labeled as "steam". THAT'S the true analogy of the Yin/Yang-symbol, in fact only westeners call it so, it's real meaning is Taichi-symbol. You see, through the fusion, the Mind becomes in fact transformed by the Life and the Life becomes transformed by the Mind! That's the reasons for the DOTS in the symbol! It's NO MORE simply Yin and Yang! Through the fusion to "Taichi", Yin has got properties of the Yang and the Yin has got properties of the Yang!

Edited November 28, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

So, the simple method to reach all the levels and even the highest level in Taoist Alchemy is to infuse more and more Mind Energy into your Life Energy, fusing them more and more to one energy, increasing more and more the Power Level (Frequenzy & Amplitude) of this energy until this field or standing wave of energy even transforms the matter of your body into pure energy.

What does that mean? Well, in the end you don't only fuse your Mind with your Life, you even fuse the resulting energy of your Mind+Life with the MATTER of your BODY to ONE enlightened, powerful and immortal ENERGY BEING!

Edited November 28, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Thunder_Gooch]

-Raises hand-

I have a question. O:

 

Assuming if an individual converted all his energy into Yang and attained the highest level of immortality, how will they be able to come back down to this world? If their consciousness are in their energy, how are they able to see, feel, and do the rest of the senses? Since their body is already converted into energy, they won't have the physical parts that a normal human does, like necessary human organs, and nerves. etc. What are you guy's thoughts on this?

 

 

We actually have two spirits, the yin spirit which is made of energy similar to gravity, and a yang spirit which is made of energy similar to sunlight.

 

At death the yang spirit (our conscious mind) scatters back into the environment. Our yang spirit gives us willpower, emotion, desire, ego, self, passion, etc.

 

What remains is the yin spirit (unconscious mind) which has no willpower to do anything,no concept of emotion, just a passive observing mind.

 

If both spirits are developed to their maximum potential, and fused as one before death, then a physical spirit will remain.

 

The yang energy when flowing through a dense field of yin can interact with the environment.

 

The spirit can manifest as if it were a physical body if it chooses.

 

To the best of my understanding it isn't possible to become pure yang, as yang energy scatters without a container. The yin spirit can contain the yang spirit to prevent this if both are fully developed and fused as one prior to death.

 

When most people die they become a yin only spirit, so this fusion must occur before death.

 

It is my understanding that this spirit is indeed still a biological entity.

Edited November 28, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Jetsun]

By far one of the best threads ever

 

What do you guys think brings forth spiritual Immortality? There are so many different views on the matter. Theres the Mantak Chia view, that you must come up with an immortal embryo, on the other hand Michael said in his workshop that when your energy body reaches Dao and merges with it or something like that, then you become Immortal. And now I've read people saying basically that enlightenment = also Immortality.

 

Do you believe that Immortality could simply be a natural outcome of any basic practice taken to a level high enough?

 

Its Jedi vs the Sith, the Jedi are not afraid to die as they merge with the force whereas the Sith are terrified to die so they practice immortality. So are you on the light side more towards the Buddhist outlook or on the Taoist dark side :wink:

[Wells]

...

 

Well, as I already pointed out to you before (but you didn't react):

Taichi Masters achieve distance power (=the ability to transfer power through space (or at least air!) without touching the opponent), WITHOUT ever having meditated with their butts to the ground or with their butts attached to a grounded wire to "suck in" "Yin"-Chi.

 

For example:

Waysun Liao demonstrates Fa-Shen (Distance Power) first-hand to thetaobums-member forestofsouls:

http://thetaobums.co...__1

 

What we did was we all gathered in a circle. Master Liao had us put our hands out in the tai chi ball stance, which is standing shoulder width apart, with our palms facing one another, perpendicular to the floor. Sort of like holding a beach ball in front of you. He placed his hands around my hands, without touching. Then he said, let me know when you feel something.

 

Mind you, I was a chi skeptic at this time. I could feel vague light buzzings, but nothing substantial.

 

What I did was try to keep an open, empty mind and a relaxed body. I was curious, but quite sceptical. What happened was it felt like suddenly I was hooked up to a power generator. When I was younger, I once grabbed a refrigerator that wasn't fully grounded, and was mildly electocuted. It was similar, but it felt good. It started out vague, then I felt a lot of pressure as though I was submerged under water. I said nothing, and the feelings got very strong. Then the pressure gave way and it felt like liquid electicity was flowing throughout my body, and it felt as real and vivid as an oak table. I also felt my lower dan tien and upper dan tien swelling and opening, and it was ecstatic. It also felt like there was a fine electrical wire connecting the two dan tiens. I felt giddy and high, and couldn't stop smiling. It also felt there was an actual ball between my hands.

 

The main thought I had was "Oh my God I can't beleive this is real!"

 

Master Liao said that the object was to cultivate oneself so that one could feel that way without a master "charging you up".

 

In Mo Pai theory, this should be IMPOSSIBLE, because you allegedly need a high level of earth chi (it's EARTH CHI btw.! It's only "Yin" in comparison to the correspondent Heaven Chi!).

In Mo Pai theory, you can only "intake" enough Earth Chi by meditating with your butt connected to the ground or to a grounding metal object.

 

So how can these Taichi Masters have distance power without having fulfilled that premise?

And, more important, are they all at or beyond Level 4 Mo Pai, because in Mo Pai theory you get distance power on that level?

[Wells]

Its Jedi vs the Sith, the Jedi are not afraid to die as they merge with the force whereas the Sith are terrified to die so they practice immortality. So are you on the light side more towards the Buddhist outlook or on the Taoist dark side :wink:

Really? Dude, you are losing energy ALL THE TIME to "The Force" in Taoist Theory! This energy flows out of you all day long. Are you still in touch with this energy? Is it still a part of you? No, it's lost to you forever and it's no more connected to you or a part of you! And what will happen to you when you die (according to Waysun Liao's book "Tao: The Way Of God") is that you simply lose the last tiny bit of your energy to "The Force". You just simply fade away. You don't get "the whole ocean", as you might think!

What you really are is your "matrix" or "mental structure" or "consciousness". This structure or consciousness is build and sustained by your energy. When there is no more energy to sustain it, the structure fades away.

It's only physics, as everything else in the universe!

[Wells]

...

 

So, what happens in fact in Mo Pai practice when you fuse the alleged ball of compressed "Yang Chi" with a ball of gathered "Yin Chi" and force them both into Tantien?

Well, without a doubt you get a much more dense and compressed ball of energy as you had before in your Tantien as the result! What does "density" in terms of energy as a wave phenomenon mean? Well, it's the "frequenzy" of the energy waves! So the frequenzy increases of the energy in tantien. But also, because the amount of energy also increases (the amount of energy = amount of energy of 1 ball + amount of energy of another ball), the "amplitude" of the energy wave phenomenon in your tantien increases too.

 

So, the difference between a Mo Pai Guy able or unable to perform distance power is simply the level of the "Frequenzy" (="Density") and the level of "Amplitude" (="Mass") of his energy in his Tantien.

 

This fits also the theory of (Temple Style) Taichi.

 

=> No "Earth Chi" nessecary for distance power!

 

MPG, please watch John Chang's arm shake immensely when he sets that paper on fire in the video and you see clearly that his "Mo Pai" chi is a wave phenomenon as everything else in the universe!

Edited November 28, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Jetsun]

 

Really? Dude, you are losing energy ALL THE TIME to "The Force" in Taoist Theory! This energy flows out of you all day long. Are you still in touch with this energy? Is it still a part of you? No, it's lost to you forever and it's no more connected to you or a part of you! And what will happen to you when you die (according to Waysun Liao's book "Tao: The Way Of God") is that you simply lose the last tiny bit of your energy to "The Force". You just simply fade away. You don't get "the whole ocean", as you might think!

What you really are is your "matrix" or "mental structure" or "consciousness". This structure or consciousness is build and sustained by your energy. When there is no more energy to sustain it, the structure fades away.

It's only physics, as everything else in the universe!

 

Is that a common Taoist interpretation? I thought they were obsessed with maintaining some of their energy or some sort of being after death.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Dorian,

 

I like you and I don't want to be rude or disrespectful to you, but I've seen no good evidence of any tai chi master anywhere near John Chang's level of development. I've only heard rumors of rumors.

 

To the best of my knowledge there are a small handful of people alive on earth close to or above his level of development. It is meditation that allowed them to collect and store this energy not active physical movements.

 

If Tai Chi is your thing that's great. I am just not sold on it.

 

Every video of a tai chi master looks like this to me,

 

 

Until I see some scientists investigate one of them, I see no reason to revisit their practice.

 

 

Well, as I already pointed out to you before (but you didn't react):

Taichi Masters achieve distance power (=the ability to transfer power through space (or at least air!) without touching the opponent), WITHOUT ever having meditated with their butts to the ground or with their butts attached to a grounded wire to "suck in" "Yin"-Chi.

 

For example:

Waysun Liao demonstrates Fa-Shen (Distance Power) first-hand to thetaobums-member forestofsouls:

http://thetaobums.co...__1

 

 

 

In Mo Pai theory, this should be IMPOSSIBLE, because you allegedly need a high level of earth chi (it's EARTH CHI btw.! It's only "Yin" in comparison to the correspondent Heaven Chi!).

In Mo Pai theory, you can only "intake" enough Earth Chi by meditating with your butt connected to the ground or to a grounding metal object.

 

So how can these Taichi Masters have distance power without having fulfilled that premise?

And, more important, are they all at or beyond Level 4 Mo Pai, because in Mo Pai theory you get distance power on that level?

Edited November 28, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Wells]

Is that a common Taoist interpretation? I thought they were obsessed with maintaining some of their energy or some sort of being after death.

 

What is common in all pure taoist philosophies (I mean the original chinese philosophies WITHOUT later buddhist influences):

 

1. your self falls apart, no individual immortal soul survives death or reincarnates!

2. however, the energies (chi) that were building you will be recycled to build up other creatures, but in the same sense as the molecules that built up your body will be recycled to build up other beings! The constant consciousness that is created now during your life through your energies will be lost forever and not be a part of these creatures that will be built up through the recycling of your energies!

 

Why do you think a whole society was possessed by the idea to fuse the parts of their being to an "individual" (=non-divisible) and therefore immortal being?

[Thunder_Gooch]

So, what happens in fact in Mo Pai practice when you fuse the alleged ball of compressed "Yang Chi" with a ball of gathered "Yin Chi" and force them both into Tantien?

Well, without a doubt you get a much more dense and compressed ball of energy as you had before in your Tantien as the result! What does "density" in terms of energy as a wave phenomenon mean? Well, it's the "frequenzy" of the energy waves! So the frequenzy increases of the energy in tantien. But also, because the amount of energy also increases (the amount of energy = amount of energy of 1 ball + amount of energy of another ball), the "amplitude" of the energy wave phenomenon in your tantien increases too.

 

So, the difference between a Mo Pai Guy able or unable to perform distance power is simply the level of the "Frequenzy" (="Density") and the level of "Amplitude" (="Mass") of his energy in his Tantien.

 

This fits also the theory of (Temple Style) Taichi.

 

=> No "Earth Chi" nessecary for distance power!

 

MPG, please watch John Chang's arm shake immensely when he sets that paper on fire in the video and you see clearly that his "Mo Pai" chi is a wave phenomenon as everything else in the universe!

 

It is my understanding that yang energy is what animates our physical bodies, our lifeforce energy.

 

It cannot leave the body without a conduit like a metal wire, or physical contact. A dense field of yin energy can serve as a conduit, or if yin and yang energy have been fused as one they can leave the body as well.

 

 

In this video chang is creating a dense yin field which serves as a conduit for Jim's yang energy to leave his body.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Its Jedi vs the Sith, the Jedi are not afraid to die as they merge with the force whereas the Sith are terrified to die so they practice immortality. So are you on the light side more towards the Buddhist outlook or on the Taoist dark side :wink:

 

Jetsun,

 

I think there are more options than those two. If there were a method of killing my soul so that I achieved eternal nonexistence, and thus ended rebirth in that manner. I would indeed take it.

 

I seek to fuse my yin and yang spirits not to stop death but to stop being reborn.

 

I am not terrified of dying, I am just highly motivated to get off this ride.

 

Buddhists that I've met for the most part don't even believe in rebirth, those that do see no problem with being reborn.

[Jetsun]

 

 

Jetsun,

 

I think there are more options than those two. If there were a method of killing my soul so that I achieved eternal nonexistence, and thus ended rebirth in that manner. I would indeed take it.

 

I seek to fuse my yin and yang spirits not to stop death but to stop being reborn.

 

I am not terrified of dying, I am just highly motivated to get off this ride.

 

Buddhists that I've met for the most part don't even believe in rebirth, those that do see no problem with being reborn.

 

Yeah rebirth may be what all of us who have neither achieved enlightenment or immortaliy or created a subtle body go through. I have no memory of rebirth but it makes sense that the subtle matter of our minds have to go somewhere, maybe if we collect it together we can direct it to where we want.

 

I often wonder if a lot of Buddhist ideas might actually just be belief systems introduced to help people relax, if you think you have multiple lives you can relax a lot more easily in your meditation which allows for a lot more progress, whereas the belief that you only have a short time can create anxiety in the mind and tension in the body which can block progress.

[Wells]

Dorian,

I like you and I don't want to be rude or disrespectful to you, but I've seen no good evidence of any tai chi master anywhere near John Chang's level of development. I've only heard rumors of rumors.

MPG,

I like you too and your scientific non-B.S. approach to Nei Kung.

 

Well, John Chang setting the paper on fire and shocking people in his video is certainly the "levelling staff" that we all can accept as a given to estimate his power level.

I don't know about you, but I am not quite sure about the stories I read about him being able to let the trunk of a tree explode!

 

The best evidence I have gathered so far about the power of Taichi Masters I have already posted in the "strong energy cultivation" thread!

 

We have several people here on thetaobums who had first-hand and direct experience with the power of Temple Style Taichi Masters.

 

forestofsouls' experience with Waysun Liao, as I already posted above was interesting to show distance power but surely not impressive if you are only impressed by transferring strong kinetic or electromagnetic forces (vibration as movement or heat) into matter/masses with scientifically observable effects.

 

However, other people here have also had more impressive encounters (concerning metaphysical martial-arts application) with students of Waysun Liao.

 

Gary J. Clyman was a student of several master instructors of Liao:

Quote: Dorian Black

My friend and Thetaobums-member LittlePie took part in Gary Clyman's „Personal Power Training“ and tested Gary's Jing: Gary touched him slightly on the shoulder and LittlePie went down like "hit by a sledge-hammer". Gary told him that he only used ONE vibration and that he could have used HUNDREDS if he wanted to.

 

h.uriahr visited Waysun Liao's student and now Temple style master Ron Hoffman for personal training and got some impressive demonstration of his internal power! I quote from h.uriahr's blog:

http://thepathlesstr...83.blogspot.de/

He also gave me my first fa jing experience. It was as if I was in a car wreck. My mind went blank, my ears rang and felt like they imploded, and the explosion at the end of the push form was as if I was slammed with a brick in my chest followed by a firecracker that went off in my chest cavity. It was the first time in my life that I was fearful of a 63 yr old man lol!

 

Sound's quite impressive in regard of his Power Level, doesn't it?

 

 

To the best of my knowledge there are a small handful of people alive on earth close to or above his level of development.

I guess so too.

 

 

If Tai Chi is your thing that's great. I am just not sold on it.

I practice Gary's Nei Kung because I am sure that it t has the potential to bring me to ANY level, even beyond John Chang.

From what I hear and read I think it's possible that Waysun Liao is on a MUCH higher level as John Chang and that he can access outside energy fields (the "TAO") directly.

 

Every video of a tai chi master looks like this to me,

 

Until I see some scientists investigate one of them, I see no reason to revisit their practice.

 

Lol, that's no Taichi Master!

 

I would like to post a video on youtube ("Fajin Demo Sept 2009") with Michael Phillips, but after posting it here on thetaobums several times, it's now suddenly "private" on youtube!

Edited November 28, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

It is meditation that allowed them to collect and store this energy not active physical movements.

 

I know the Mo Pai level 1 meditation exercise.

Aside from the emphasis to sit on the ground in Mo Pai the exercise is equivalent to the "level 1" exercises in many systems, foremost Taoist Alchemy systems.

 

I think it's interesting that the theory what the exercise is actually doing differs extremely in these systems!

 

In many taoist systems this exercise is done for the purpose to infuse your mental energy into your life energy to fuse them to an amalgam-energy that begins to vibrate in your abdomen!

 

So, I don't doubt that the Mo Pai system works, but if I where you I wouldn't take the theory of it you read about as an axiomatic given fact!

 

What's more likely: that your concentration on your tantien pulls in outside energies from heaven and earth into the tantien into your body or that energies that are already present in your body just react in some way?

 

How shall it be able to control and order outside energies to flow into your body with a powerless level 0 mind? Via the law of attraction? I don't attack your intelligence in any way, MPG, I just want you not to just believe something because Kosta and Jim wrote it in some book and take it as an axiomatic given, that's all! You should use your intelligence to check those statements more, at least imo.

 

I strongly tend to the theory about working with energies you already have inside of your body, but I'm still open to the theory of "sucking in" outside energies because I don't know the truth and very highly likely never will. But this or with what theory in mind you make certain exercises won't change it's effect, that I'm sure of.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Thunder_Gooch]

I know the Mo Pai level 1 meditation exercise.

Aside from the emphasis to sit on the ground in Mo Pai the exercise is equivalent to the "level 1" exercises in many systems, foremost Taoist Alchemy systems.

 

I think it's interesting that the theory what the exercise is actually doing differs extremely in these systems!

 

In many taoist systems this exercise is done for the purpose to infuse your mental energy into your life energy to fuse them to an amalgam-energy that begins to vibrate in your abdomen!

 

So, I don't doubt that the Mo Pai system works, but if I where you I wouldn't take the theory of it you read about as an axiomatic given fact!

 

What's more likely: that your concentration on your tantien pulls in outside energies from heaven and earth into the tantien into your body or that energies that are already present in your body just react in some way?

 

How shall it be able to control and order outside energies to flow into your body with a powerless level 0 mind? Via the law of attraction? I don't attack your intelligence in any way, MPG, I just want you not to just believe something because Kosta and Jim wrote it in some book and take it as an axiomatic given, that's all! You should use your intelligence to check those statements more, at least imo.

 

I strongly tend to the theory about working with energies you already have inside of your body, but I'm still open to the theory of "sucking in" outside energies because I don't know the truth and very highly likely never will. But this or with what theory in mind you make certain exercises won't change it's effect, that I'm sure of.

 

 

All I can say is that I know what it feels like to work with chi in a deep trance state connected to the earth, and I know what it feels like to try to work with it in an active state of non meditation.

 

The two are worlds apart, perhaps galaxies apart.

 

If you are overflowing with chi perhaps in an active state you can have some degree more control over it, but it isn't the same.

 

That deep stillness of deep trance meditation is the only state I can honestly say that I know chi can be felt and worked with.

Edited November 28, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Wells]

All I can say is that I know what it feels like to work with chi in a deep trance state connected to the earth, and I know what it feels like to try to work with it in an active state of non meditation.

 

The two are worlds apart, perhaps galaxies apart.

 

If you are overflowing with chi perhaps in an active state you can have some degree more control over it, but it isn't the same.

 

That deep stillness of deep trance meditation is the only state I can honestly say that I know chi can be felt and worked with.

 

I agree with you that it's surely much more easy to come into a state of mind where you can successfully "block out" all exterior signals of the senses when you are sitting or lying down than in standing postures or even standing and moving!

 

I also agree with you that such a state of mind is absolutely nessecary to be able to work successfully with energy in any kind.

 

But I don't know what you mean with "trance". In Gary's Mind Light Nei Kung, you try to concentrate and focus as strongly as possible on sensing chi and trying to influence it via suggestion. You try to feel what the chi shall do and therefore to influence it to follow your suggestions. Also, you use your focused attention like a cursor in your body to affect the chi to flow from point A to B or assemble on certain points or follow specific routes or directly accelerate it's speed of flow and frequenzy.

 

As far as I understand the terms "meditation" and "concentration" as tested in science, in concentration one part of the brain is extremely active while the rest of the cerebrum more or less "sleeps", while in meditation many parts of the cerebrum are active, but in fast alternating sequential arrangement or most of the cerebrum sleeps without any part of it that is linked with conscious activity is extremely active!

 

So Mo Pai level 1 is actually according to this definition "concentration" and not at all "meditation".

So what do you mean with "trance"? For me this word more or less is equivalent with meditation and hypnose, that means your consciousness rather sleeping and you being exposed to suggestion.

[Wells]

Results of my training so far:

 

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I can only talk from my personal POW. When I trained with Gary's Nei Kung only for a short time, I woke up at night and felt one vibration jump between the bones of my left and of my right leg jumping back and forth and felt the microcosmic orbit or a vibration in my backbone jump up and down and actually felt it bumping against the crown point of my head. The vibration was quite hard, sharp and quick. I stood up and it all was still there. I heard a loud hum in my head also. It was around 2 at night, I stood up and emailed Gary because I was a little concerned. Gary wrote back IN 30 SECONDS (!!!) and told me that that's all normal, he had that too and I shouldn't be concerned and simply go on training!

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I trained 5,5 hours with Gary's Nei Kung and then straight went to bed before that experience. I sucked all the vibration I created into tan tien, there was no vibration left in my body. The vibration I created was NOWHERE as strong or fast as the vibration that suddenly flew around in my body that night.

My opinion is that it was actually my Yuan Chi that came out on it's own and doing something in my system, maybe clearing my channels or god knows what. It had to be a conscious energy because it did it on it's own! It mirrored the vibration I created but was 100 times stronger! Also the routes it flowed mirrored the routes I used in training. I guess I stimulated my Yuan Chi by feeding it with the vibration I created.

The experience didn't repeat itself until now but I hope it will happen again soon.

In Mind Light Nei Kung there are priciples included in the exercises that boost the frequenzy of the condensed energy higher and higher and I don't think that this is possible with condensing alone!

If you want to get an idea of what I am talking, read Waysun Liao's Taichi Classics. He describes briefly what you have to do after the condensing (or with it) to further increase the frequenzy "until the waves collide and break the barrier of time". But he certainly doesn't say HOW to do that. However, you learn it in detail with Gary's Mind Light Nei Kung!

 

kind regards

 

So this approach of Gary's training seems to influence my chi pretty strongly!

[Isimsiz Biri]

All I can say is that I know what it feels like to work with chi in a deep trance state connected to the earth, and I know what it feels like to try to work with it in an active state of non meditation.

The two are worlds apart, perhaps galaxies apart.

If you are overflowing with chi perhaps in an active state you can have some degree more control over it, but it isn't the same.

That deep stillness of deep trance meditation is the only state I can honestly say that I know chi can be felt and worked with.

 

Dear More Pie Guy,

 

My recommendation is that do not spend your time with Dorian Black. According to him, Gary J. Clyman has higher powers than Chang Shifu.

 

Best Regards,

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

So Mo Pai level 1 is actually according to this definition "concentration" and not at all "meditation".

So what do you mean with "trance"? For me this word more or less is equivalent with meditation and hypnose, that means your consciousness rather sleeping and you being exposed to suggestion.

 

Concentration is only 1/2 the equation, and it is useless without achieving a deep trance state.

 

 

 

“What is Level One exactly?” I asked. “You’ve shown me the training method, but we’ve never talked about what I’m supposed to be doing,” “In Level One you fill up your dantien with yang ch’i. You must be in actual meditation to achieve this, and it is time dependent.

 

Danaos, Kosta The Magus of Java: Teachings of an Authentic Taoist Immortal (p. 39).

 

 

 

 

 

“You know how in meditation we slow down our breathing and our pulse? It’s because we move more and more into our yin consciousness.”

 

The Magus of Java (p. 52):

 

 

 

 

 

 

“What is actual meditation like?” I asked.

 

“There are no thoughts and there is no sense of time. If you are thinking, you are not in meditation. If you are aware of yourself, you are also not in meditation. You must become like a baby in the womb, there and yet not there. Meditation is like the borderline between sleep and waking, between consciousness and unconsciousness.”

 

“Very difficult.”

 

“Not so difficult, Kosta. You stayed in meditation for long periods when you were an embryo and a baby, and you pass through it now each time you drift off to sleep. You just have to remember how.”

 

Danaos, Kosta The Magus of Java (p. 82).

[Wells]

...

 

Thank you for the clarification and correspondent quotes!