Immortals (Xian Shi)

[on the path]

This dude?

 

Yes this is the Immortal.

One can see him sometimes with a dragon!!

[Path]

On various posts I have explained that I am the student of a traditional Shaman, Master Yoon Kin Tong. Master Tong is the student of Huang Lao Xian Shi (Old Yellow Immortal Master). If there are any Chinese members on this forum they may know of the Immortal Master. The history of Huang Lao is that he was a shaman and lived around 125 AD. He was a famous exorcist, swordsman, healer and martial artist. His temples are not really found in China itself (probably destroyed during the cultural revolution), but are found in Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore and wherever Chinese people have settled. He is sometimes linked with the Monkey God and Lao Tzu. Having received the teachings from Master Tong, he taught me Huang Lao's sword form and various other things, I have not heard from Master Tong for some time, as I am so to speak, 'come down the mountain'. To a lot of native Chinese these things are common, but to western people its seems extraordinary.

 

The pursuit of spiritual Immortality and belief in Immortals and spirits is so strongly intertwined with all sorts of Daoist practices that this subject I feel should not be ignored. So without any rude or stupid replies please, (the Immortals may be looking!!!) I would be most interested in your thoughts on the whole subject in and around it and would like to hear from anyone who believes in any other Immortals.

 

Marblehead need not reply due to his blood pressure!!!!

 

I do not believe, because I know they exist, and I am aware of them. Due to the ideas some adopted these days, they will not know. P.M. me, I have memories from beyond. Drawing out the old crowd?

Or if you have permission from the elders, interact with me on the other side.

[doc benway]

I was talking about this sort of thing with my training partner today.

I think there are several ways to approach the original question about immortals.

Like in any religion, there are those who take the subject matter literally and those who take it figuratively, allegorically, mythically, and so on.

 

So there are those that believe the Red Sea literally parted like in the Charlton Heston movie and there are those that believe that wine turns into Jesus' blood and bread into his flesh when its consumed. Some believe that shapeshifting entails literally physically transforming into an animal. Some believe in virgins waiting for them in heaven. Others look for scientific explanations or symbolism in such concepts. I find it fascinating that there are those who turn up their nose and scoff at such beliefs in others' traditions but are completely comfortable living in a universe of gratuitous dogma in their own, chosen tradition.

 

So is the question - do you believe literally that there are humans who live on forever as the human being they were when they were born, riding dragons and so on?

 

Personally, I try to avoid belief. Belief means that I accept an explanation for something in the absence of direct experience or evidence. Why bother? For me, I prefer to know or not know. And I have no personal experience of people living beyond 110 years old or so and I've never seen a dragon.

 

On the other hand, through my meditation practice I've made certain personal discoveries about the nature of immortality that are very real and obvious to me. Things that I just know deep down in my bones and heart through direct insight. And it has nothing to do with humans living beyond 130 years.

 

So I do believe in immortality and I study and practice elements of Daoism. In that sense, I do believe in Daoist immortals.

My beliefs are my own and to try and explain them in detail is probably not worth the time and energy right now. Suffice it to say that my beliefs run more toward the symbolic when it comes to mythological descriptions of Daoist Immortals and yet I do have an understanding and belief in immortality that goes beyond the symbolic.

 

When it comes to anthropomorphic deities? Humans with superhuman powers and so forth? Nope, can't say I believe in that concept. No reason to and no personal experience to base such a belief on.

[zerostao]

i had the good fortune to hang out the last 3 days with lazy cloud(his birthday today)

talk of immortals came up naturally. he has me to ask this forum if anyone knows

how Lu Dongbin is able to change his sword into a beautiful woman? lazy cloud says he knows how it is done.

 

also my question is , do ya'll consider Zhang Sanfeng to be any type of immortal?

[thelerner]

[deci belle]

Home is where it is found. Who needs a door?

 

I was so happy to read your post starting this thread, on the path— it felt like home!❤

 

(ed: added second line)

Edited September 5, 2011 by deci belle

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I thought this would be mentioned in the "Native American Immortals" thread, but it was something else.

 

However, I was thinking to mention about the similarity of Taoist Immortals to the Native American's Shaman Ancestors Council which is very similar. Basically, the same idea, that all the greatest shamans join a council on the other side and continue to help in the same way as Taoist Immortals: guiding, influencing, teaching, etc., appearing in dreams and visions.

 

This makes sense to me considering the spiritual power they held in the physical realm.

 

Maybe they decide things like "you've done well and can work from up here now.. You've got some lessons to learn -- you're coming back as a beaver..."

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I believe the path of an immortal is a long road to walk alone and can only be walked alone, for attachments bind us to the experience of death, as the further we attach ourselves, the more we experience grief and suffer, which lead us closer to death. However, as with all things, too much of anything is bad for us, as well as not enough of anything.

 

It would do us well to still 'practice letting go' by not willing ourselves one way or another, to decide is to be attached, but to allow it to come and go without attachment. Meditating allows us to see clearly our reflection, but attachments allow us to change our reflection.

 

 

That which never changes will die.

That which always changes moves with the world and lives with the world until such a time that the world itself might die.

[zerostao]

some thoughts by Ge Hong from the Han dynasty.

http://www.kheper.ne..._and_magic.html

 

http://www.kheper.net/topics/bardo/chinese.html

and

"However, I was thinking to mention about the similarity of Taoist Immortals to the Native American's Shaman Ancestors Council which is very similar. Basically, the same idea, that all the greatest shamans join a council on the other side and continue to help in the same way as Taoist Immortals: guiding, influencing, teaching, etc., appearing in dreams and visions."

 

it was/is my idea that someone did bring this up on the cherokee immortals thread. placing it here is just as good.

Edited September 2, 2011 by zerostao

[Birch]

Sounds a bit like 'As below, so above' to me. I dunno, if for example a monarch is 'enthroned' by 'God' - what does that do for the legitimacy of the monarch? Does nothing at all for the 'god' IMO.

 

I've already wondered why the Taoist immortals might have a specific political formation and why they might have very specific characters in there, and where are the animals? Dragons maybe?

 

From what I've gathered, many North American cosmologies include animals. Many Europeans used to. Also plants. Where did all of that go and why?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

"However, I was thinking to mention about the similarity of Taoist Immortals to the Native American's Shaman Ancestors Council which is very similar. Basically, the same idea, that all the greatest shamans join a council on the other side and continue to help in the same way as Taoist Immortals: guiding, influencing, teaching, etc., appearing in dreams and visions."

 

it was/is my idea that someone did bring this up on the cherokee immortals thread. placing it here is just as good.

 

You were setting up the conversation for it? That's funny, because I was sitting on the fence as to mention in here and then your topic pushed me over. I guess it was just sitting in the collective memory, waiting for someone to pull it in, lol..

[goldisheavy]

On various posts I have explained that I am the student of a traditional Shaman, Master Yoon Kin Tong. Master Tong is the student of Huang Lao Xian Shi (Old Yellow Immortal Master). If there are any Chinese members on this forum they may know of the Immortal Master. The history of Huang Lao is that he was a shaman and lived around 125 AD. He was a famous exorcist, swordsman, healer and martial artist. His temples are not really found in China itself (probably destroyed during the cultural revolution), but are found in Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore and wherever Chinese people have settled. He is sometimes linked with the Monkey God and Lao Tzu. Having received the teachings from Master Tong, he taught me Huang Lao's sword form and various other things, I have not heard from Master Tong for some time, as I am so to speak, 'come down the mountain'. To a lot of native Chinese these things are common, but to western people its seems extraordinary.

 

The pursuit of spiritual Immortality and belief in Immortals and spirits is so strongly intertwined with all sorts of Daoist practices that this subject I feel should not be ignored. So without any rude or stupid replies please, (the Immortals may be looking!!!)

 

What the fuck is that? Why not be a little rude? Relax. Immortals cannot become immortal by being mentally inflexible. If you can't even tolerate a little bit of rudeness, you have no hope of ever becoming an immortal who has to tolerate primordial chaos and the inconceivable nature of experience.

 

I would be most interested in your thoughts on the whole subject in and around it and would like to hear from anyone who believes in any other Immortals.

 

Marblehead need not reply due to his blood pressure!!!!

 

Immortals do exist, but how they manifest depends on your own mindset.

 

If your mindset is very rigid and materialistic, then the immortals will look like wise people who are very easy going and ordinary. They're the kind of people you'd have a beer with at the pub, with the difference that they are very wise. These people will appear to die.

 

If your mindset is soft and immaterial then the immortals can manifest in a broad variety of ways. They may or may not appear to die. They may or may not appear to have strange powers. The wisdom of these immortals will be more powerful and more daring than the wisdom of the above immortal.

 

So immortals exist no matter what, but how they will appear depends on you and your level of cultivation. This realm is like a TV channel. If your cultivation is low, you watch low channels where not many unusual things can happen and things are locked down by many rigid rules that are ascribed to Nature. If your cultivation is high then you're watching higher channels and there are more possibilities and Nature is less rigid and its rules are more abstract.

 

But constantly looking for an immortal is a great mistake. Instead you should try to realize immortality within yourself. If you read the Daoist stories about immortals, there is almost no example of ignorant people finding immortals. It works the other way around. Immortals look around for people who are ready. Even then, immortals only do that when they are not lazy and want to contribute. Often immortals are lazy and just want to enjoy themselves and won't even bother to share anything they know and looking for them is a waste of time, because they didn't escape the mortal realm for nothing. The escaped it because it sucked, so obviously they don't want to dip back into it to teach people in a painfully slow way.

 

So take care of yourself and then an immortal may or may not show up at your doorstep. If you don't worry about immortals and just focus on wisdom and cultivation, that's your best chance to encounter an immortal. If you try to go around looking for one, the chances of finding fakers and posers are extremely high. I would say 99.99% high.

Edited September 3, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Birch]

"This realm is like a TV channel. If your cultivation is low, you watch low channels where not many unusual things can happen and things are locked down by many rigid rules that are ascribed to Nature. If your cultivation is high then you're watching higher channels and there are more possibilities and Nature is less rigid and its rules are more abstract."

 

It's "Like TV" here???

 

Goldie (i was trying to figure whether that would bug you or not. I thought it might so I'm chancing it could be an irritant).

 

TV???

 

Lookie here at this channel. "Nature" is not abstract. The BS that we come up with in relationship to nature (and we've IMO collectively been through the whole "subjective contains the objective" malerky) most probably is. Are you going to get to the "is" at some point?

[goldisheavy]

"This realm is like a TV channel. If your cultivation is low, you watch low channels where not many unusual things can happen and things are locked down by many rigid rules that are ascribed to Nature. If your cultivation is high then you're watching higher channels and there are more possibilities and Nature is less rigid and its rules are more abstract."

 

It's "Like TV" here???

 

Goldie (i was trying to figure whether that would bug you or not. I thought it might so I'm chancing it could be an irritant).

 

Don't worry about it sweet pea. Just tell me what you're thinking and let me worry about it. As long as your general overall intention is relatively nice, I should be able to figure my way around your words.

 

TV???

 

Lookie here at this channel. "Nature" is not abstract. The BS that we come up with in relationship to nature (and we've IMO collectively been through the whole "subjective contains the objective" malerky) most probably is. Are you going to get to the "is" at some point?

 

Is? So you think Nature has its own true state and we obscure it with our own distortions? Then if we remove our distortions, we'll be observing the undistorted Nature? Is that your view?

 

If it is, I'm sorry to say I don't share it. Nature doesn't have a self that's separate from myself. My opinion of Nature is not a distortion. It is itself natural, like grass and like rain. I don't consider myself to be artificial. Because of that, my thoughts are not artificial either. All the bendy shit that my mind does is 100% natural and mother approved. It's not artificial. I am Nature. Who are you? Are you an onlooker? I am not an onlooker. I am it.

Edited September 5, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Mal]

I am a total believer in both spiritual and physical immortality.

 

I tend to believe an extremely long spiritual persistence (almost immortality) is possible with enough "power" But I'm not so sure about actual physical "immortality". Outside of someone looking after their health,living to their potential and therefor appearing "immortal" to those who typically live much shorter lives.

[Stigweard]

I tend to believe an extremely long spiritual persistence (almost immortality) is possible with enough "power" But I'm not so sure about actual physical "immortality". Outside of someone looking after their health,living to their potential and therefor appearing "immortal" to those who typically live much shorter lives.

I am inclined to believe the same

[Birch]

Don't worry about it sweet pea. Just tell me what you're thinking and let me worry about it. As long as your general overall intention is relatively nice, I should be able to figure my way around your words.

 

 

 

Is? So you think Nature has its own true state and we obscure it with our own distortions? Then if we remove our distortions, we'll be observing the undistorted Nature? Is that your view?

 

If it is, I'm sorry to say I don't share it. Nature doesn't have a self that's separate from myself. My opinion of Nature is not a distortion. It is itself natural, like grass and like rain. I don't consider myself to be artificial. Because of that, my thoughts are not artificial either. All the bendy shit that my mind does is 100% natural and mother approved. It's not artificial. I am Nature. Who are you? Are you an onlooker? I am not an onlooker. I am it.

Hmm, I've heard that before somewhere:-) I think my mother warned me about you:-)

You are an organic being, right? Not an inorganic one (like a corporation or someone ignoring all their human bendiness, or who is trying to because of some religion?)

If so, then I'm fine with your statement:-) But if you've been taken over by the non-organics then I'd have something to worry about:-)

My references are the Sophia myth and some ideas about windagos (sp?).

 

I think we've been through the onlooker/looked on thing and I do agree with you, I'd just like to know what kind of 10,000 thing you are:-)

 

Stay bendy!

 

Sweetpea

[Wuji108]

What are immortals - if you accept the basic Taoist tenets that we are all immortals (or were before we had to leave the yang world because desire or attachment rose in our spirit) and that the purpose of life is to return to the yang world (heaven) then there is no separation between us and immortals - we've just "forgotten" how to be immortal and have to relearn how to unite fire and water to be able to create the immortal fetus, nurture it and eventually grow into full flower...

 

Belief in immortals is central to Taoism - if you don't believe in immortals, by definition you're not a Taoist. But what does that mean to us when we're in the ordinary mortal stage of development?

 

There are different types of immortals - the big three - the Original three - who bear many striking similarities to the big three of the Indian pantheon of the gods, then there's the Jade Emperor, then there are so many more...there are community immortals...kitchen gods, immortals responsible for each aspect of the material world - thunder, the rivers, the ocean, the flowers, the earth, and more...protecting heaven, healing, marriage, screening heavenly applicants, the list goes on...

 

Another random thought on immortals = when we ascend we gather all the splinters of our soul together to go to heaven with us all at once - our antecedents, our descents, all come at once. And if you think about there being no time or space, then all of our incarnations also ascend with us all at once...

 

but the key to becoming immortal is to be the very best ordinary human you can be first...so, be human...

 

Just random thoughts...

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

8 immortals?

 

More like 64

 

 

So.... what, do they wage a huge 'immortal war' and whittle it down to 8? "there can be only".... uh.... 8

Edited September 7, 2011 by Hot Nirvana Judo Trend

[goldisheavy]

What are immortals - if you accept the basic Taoist tenets that we are all immortals (or were before we had to leave the yang world because desire or attachment rose in our spirit) and that the purpose of life is to return to the yang world (heaven) then there is no separation between us and immortals - we've just "forgotten" how to be immortal and have to relearn how to unite fire and water to be able to create the immortal fetus, nurture it and eventually grow into full flower...

 

Belief in immortals is central to Taoism - if you don't believe in immortals, by definition you're not a Taoist. But what does that mean to us when we're in the ordinary mortal stage of development?

 

There are different types of immortals - the big three - the Original three - who bear many striking similarities to the big three of the Indian pantheon of the gods, then there's the Jade Emperor, then there are so many more...there are community immortals...kitchen gods, immortals responsible for each aspect of the material world - thunder, the rivers, the ocean, the flowers, the earth, and more...protecting heaven, healing, marriage, screening heavenly applicants, the list goes on...

 

Another random thought on immortals = when we ascend we gather all the splinters of our soul together to go to heaven with us all at once - our antecedents, our descents, all come at once. And if you think about there being no time or space, then all of our incarnations also ascend with us all at once...

 

but the key to becoming immortal is to be the very best ordinary human you can be first...so, be human...

 

Just random thoughts...

 

Well said!

 

Appearing to die is one of the favorite tricks of immortals. Also, drunken immortals often claim to be mortal and go around even believing to be mortal.

 

Although I don't think the purpose of life is to merely return to heaven. Life is like a roller coaster. You enjoy it on the way down and you enjoy it on the way up. Descending into the confused worlds of powerlessness and separation gives us many unique experiences that are simply impossible in the heavenly world. It seems like a good idea when we get bored of the bliss and freedom, but when we've been suffering for too long in these worlds here, it eventually doesn't seem like such a good idea anymore. For some people fear is just fear, and for others it's a rare pleasure. When fear stops being a rare pleasure and is just plain old fear, and when pain stops being an exquisite sensation and is just an old pain, that's when we've had enough. From an immortal perspective all sensations are good, that's why the decision to descend is an easy one. I bet some people here are thinking, "Why would any immortal want to descent into this realm?"

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

From an immortal perspective all sensations are good, that's why the decision to descend is an easy one. I bet some people here are thinking, "Why would any immortal want to descent into this realm?"

 

Neitzche (is that spelled even close?)

 

"That which does not kill me can only make me stronger."

 

There is no bad except where there is bad, and that bad can be used only to become stronger, which is good!

[witch]

Belief in immortals is central to Taoism - if you don't believe in immortals, by definition you're not a Taoist. But what does that mean to us when we're in the ordinary mortal stage of development?

 

Bother, does that mean I'm not a taoist after all?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

That might just depend on your definition of immortal

[JustARandomPanda]

Belief in immortals is central to Taoism - if you don't believe in immortals, by definition you're not a Taoist.

 

I wonder if Marblehead agrees with that statement?

[Birch]

I suspect Mr MH fully knows he is one. I think he talks like one anyway;-)