Yin Yang

[ChiDragon]

I would be very interested to see where one can find in Daodejing or Zhuangzi any reference to nature making "errors".To say the least this word here sounds very weird

 

If you can have access to a good library, please find and read _ sexual life in ancient china_ by R. Van Gulik you will see that Chinese culture from people to emperors had some very tolerant views about homosexuality.

 

I am leaving this discussion here. Thanks

 

LaoTze did not specify what was being unnatural. However, he did vigorously pointed out what was being normal. Thus he gives an indication that anything was not normal as defined will be considered unnatural.

Edited August 25, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Stigweard]

I was going to mention that but decided to leave it for someone else.

Me four ... hey that means "I am number four" ... nice movie.

[Stigweard]

You see, 自然(Zi Ren) means "natural" and was well defined in the Tao Te Ching. Somehow, "natural" in the West was defined differently from the Tao Te Ching. I had encountered with many difficulties when I use the words "natural" or "Nature" on the internet.

 

Let me explain how the Nature was defined in the Tao Te Ching. In the Tao Te Ching, LaoTze had used four separate entities to separate human from Nature. They are Tao, Heaven, Earth, and Human.

 

Here is the way I understood it. Heaven and Earth were considered to be Nature. Human is not part of nature but human has to deal with Nature. That was why LaoTze says Human follows Earth; Earth follows Heaven; Heaven follows Tao; and Tao follow Zi Ren.

Totally disagree with "Human is not part of nature" and that Laozi in any way said that. In that same chapter he declares Human equal status with the other 4 greats of Earth, Heaven and Dao.

[Bubbles]

Human is not part of nature but human has to deal with Nature.

 

Totally disagree with "Human is not part of nature" and that Laozi in any way said that. In that same chapter he declares Human equal status with the other 4 greats of Earth, Heaven and Dao.

 

The wording here can be misleading. Of course Human is part of nature. But he is the only species that has to recover his full naturalness so that he can be completely attuned to the Dao :there are levels in human realm from wacko to Saint. This is not done by abiding external norms/rules. This is all an immanent and internal work (cultivation) that allows one to unfold virtues. The butcher's behavior is different from the Emperor's. Nonetheless, they can both be Saints.

 

edited for spelling

Edited August 26, 2011 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

The wording here can be misleading. Of course Human is part of nature. But he is the only species that has to recover his full naturalness so that he can be completely attuned to the Dao :there are levels in human realm from wacko to Saint. This is not done by abiding external norms/rules. This is all an immanent and internal work (cultivation) that allows one to unfold virtues. The butcher's behavior is different from the Emperor's. Nonetheless, they can both be Saints.

 

edited for spelling

 

Again...

You two were not reading into the Tao Te Ching.

[Bubbles]

Again...

You two were not reading into the Tao Te Ching.

 

Instead of repeating that again and again in different wordings, can you please answer my first question ( about the definition of yin/yang you use precisely) ? and tell us exactly where you find in Daodejing the ideas you uphold?

[ChiDragon]

Instead of repeating that again and again in different wordings, can you please answer my first question ( about the definition of yin/yang you use precisely) ? and tell us exactly where you find in Daodejing the ideas you uphold?

 

"I am leaving this discussion here. Thanks"

 

I thought you had left and not interested anymore. I will go into the Yin-Yang concept since you had asked again.

 

May I ask you not to be adding or removing stuff from my inputs without a consideration. Otherwise, it might be invalidating my thoughts.

[Bubbles]

I thought you had left and not interested anymore. I will go into the Yin-Yang concept since you had asked again.

 

No obligation for you to do so. But being elliptic doesn't help the thread to be constructive. If you say you find support for your ideas in TTC, just show us. It is that simple.

 

May I ask you not to be adding or removing stuff from my inputs without a consideration. Otherwise, it might be invalidating my thoughts.

 

Please explain as I don't understand what you are talking about.

[ChiDragon]

"Please explain as I don't understand what you are talking about."

 

If you can have access to a good library, please find and read _ sexual life in ancient china_ by R. Van Gulik you will see that Chinese culture from people to emperors had some very tolerant views about homosexuality.

 

Based on your statement, it seems to be an indication that I'm against homosexuality. Anyway, I did not say that I was disapprove nor approve about homosexuality. I was only trying to point out that it wasn't called for in the Tao Te Ching and the Yi Jing.

[Bubbles]

Based on your statement, it seems to be an indication that I'm against homosexuality.

 

No, that was not the stake-at least in my mind.It was to point out that Chinese people in ancient times could see same gender relationships without finding them unnatural- from the low ranked people to the scholars or the Emperor. The most educated of them were well aware of yin-yang theory.

 

Anyway, I did not say that I was disapprove nor approve about homosexuality. I was only trying to point out that it wasn't called for in the Tao Te Ching and the Yi Jing.

 

Of course it was not. But here you are reversing the roles. No one here said that TTC or YJ said something positive about Homosexuality. I said that as far as I know there was no reason to be found in the TTC or the YJ to posit it was unnatural-This is quite a difference.

 

If you say that an idea is in a text, the onus of proof is on you.

Edited August 26, 2011 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

The lines 5 and 6 of Chapter 42 regarding the Yin-Yang.

5. 萬物負陰而抱陽，

6. 沖氣以為和。

 

5. All things are having the Yin on the back and Yang in the front.

6. The two Chis were blended together and considered to be homogeneous.

 

This implies that anything comes together or formed initially must be having the Yin and Yang elements back to back, so to speak.

[Bubbles]

The lines 5 and 6 of Chapter 42 regarding the Yin-Yang.

5. 萬物負陰而抱陽，

6. 沖氣以為和。

 

5. All things are having the Yin on the back and Yang in the front.

6. The two Chis were blended together and considered to be homogeneous.

 

This implies that anything comes together or formed initially must be having the Yin and Yang elements back to back, so to speak.

 

Ok,I understand what you are talking about. I think we should distinguish a descriptive use of yin-yang as a way of explaining how things unfold and a prescriptive level where cultivation is involved. Articulate the two without being judgmental is tricky.

Edited August 27, 2011 by bubbles

[doc benway]

2. The point I was trying to make was the natural relationship between the human beings under the Yin-Yang concept SHOULD be a male and female. As a normal relationship spelled out in the concept, without the male it cannot reproduce; without the female it cannot bear. This is the first step of the fundamental concept. However, I had three responses skipped the first step but given me a secondary answer beyond the definition in the first step.

Notice that I emphasized the word should.

Should does not exist in nature.

What exists in nature already is.

Should is what happens when you disagree with what exists and attempt to impose your preference on the other.

There is homosexuality - it exists.

Should means that you are making a judgement and what exists is in conflict with your judgement.

 

Here is an example of how nature may foster and give rise to homosexuality. I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone who is homosexual or bisexual. I hold no opinion on whether it is good or bad - it is neither. As far as I'm concerned, if two or more people choose to develop a relationship out of love, camaraderie, trust, friendship, or anything else, that is their business and their gender and sexual choices are not my concern. So we are in a situation where the human race has very effectively crowded other species out of existence and threatens its own existence through overpopulation as a result of technology. I think that the species on a macro scale has intelligence and it would make sense to me that homosexuality increases in frequency in a setting of overpopulation to slow down reproduction and lessen the competition for resources. It makes perfect sense teleologically.

 

From a relationship perspective, Chi Dragon, there will always be an alternating balance of dominant and submissive, aggressive and passive, and so on. This is irrespective of gender and is present in any relationship. From a physical perspective there is alway the penetrator and the penetrated, the pleaser and the pleased, the active and the passive, and so on... and this can easily occur irrespective of gender.

[ChiDragon]

Is there any situation or thing to which the Yin Yang does not apply to?

 

Here is the original question.

 

Here is the multiple choice answer:

1. Yin-Yin : Female-Female

2. Yang-Yang : Male-Male

3. Yin-Yang : Female-Male

 

Conditions 1 and 2 are my logical answer to the question. It was pure logic.

Edited August 27, 2011 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

You see, 自然(Zi Ren) means "natural" and was well defined in the Tao Te Ching. Somehow, "natural" in the West was defined differently from the Tao Te Ching. I had encountered with many difficulties when I use the words "natural" or "Nature" on the internet.

 

Let me explain how the Nature was defined in the Tao Te Ching. In the Tao Te Ching, LaoTze had used four separate entities to separate human from Nature. They are Tao, Heaven, Earth, and Human.

 

Here is the way I understood it. Heaven and Earth were considered to be Nature. Human is not part of nature but human has to deal with Nature. That was why LaoTze says Human follows Earth; Earth follows Heaven; Heaven follows Tao; and Tao follow Zi Ren.

I have to disagree with you completely. I think that you misunderstand what Lao Zi is telling us.

If you have spent any time in meditation I don't know how you could make a statement like:

"Human is not part of nature but human has to deal with Nature."

 

Human is a manifestation of Nature - what else could human be?

Are you saying that there is all of existence, and then there is Human?

Dao is not two, it is non-dual - human is part of Dao.

 

We feel separate for several reasons -

1)That pesky thought that calls itself "I" - it hijacks the other thoughts and claims the role as thinker and doer. In fact, it is a thought like all the rest. It just has a unique "tag" that makes it feel different, just like memories, dreams, and so on, have tags that allow us to identify them as different from visual and auditory input and so on.

2)We are mobile and surrounded by a bag of skin and have a sensory apparatus that makes us feel separate

3) We are surrounded by air and the air is invisible to our eye, so we feel separate.

 

In fact, we are nothing more or less than the entire universe, doing it's thing right here and right now in the space "we" occupy.

The separation is an illusion. In referring to Dao, Heaven, Earth, and Human, Lao Zi acknowledges our feeling of separation and the complexity of the many levels and aspects of existence. He breaks them down into very general categories but the boundaries are your creation, not his. The entire thrust of Daoist cultivation, thought, and Dao De Jing is the inseparability of Dao. Wu Wei is simply allowing our confusion to get out of the way of allowing the universe to "do us" as it naturally will without fighting it. Tai JI is the human experience of creation, of Yin and Yang. And the experiencer is ad inseparable part of the experience. Human awareness and Nature are front and back to each other. Without nature, humanity cannot exist. At the same time, awareness, sensory perception, and interpretation are what allow the beauty and experience of nature to be evoked from the otherwise unintelligible jumble energetic fluctuations (this is Wu Ji - void, nothingness, emptiness; it gives rise to creation or becomes manifest when there is awareness to create distinction between Yin and Yang).

 

Just some ramblings... No offense intended Chi Dragon. Maybe it's just the language thing...

[doc benway]

Here is the original question.

 

Here is the multiple choice answer:

1. Yin-Yin : Female-Female

2. Yang-Yang : Male-Male

3. Yin-Yang : Female-Male

 

Conditions 1 and 2 are my logical answer to the question. It was pure logic.

So you are saying that you, as a man, are 100% Yang. There is no Yin component to men and no Yang component to women.

[ChiDragon]

So you are saying that you, as a man, are 100% Yang. There is no Yin component to men and no Yang component to women.

 

Ref link: Yin-Yang Symbol

 

No, I am not 100% Yang. If one understand the Yin-Yang symbol, one will know that there are some Yin in the Yang and some Yang in the Yin by the indication of the black and white fish eyes.

 

In the given symbol, the black fish is Yin and the white one is Yang. The white eye in the black fish is indicating that there are some Yang in the Yin. The black eye in the white fish is, also, indicting that there are some Yin in the Yang.

[doc benway]

No, I am not 100% Yang. If one understand the Yin-Yang symbol, one will know that there are some Yin in the Yang and some Yang in the Yin by the indication of the black and white fish eyes.

Exactly - that is why there can be balance in a homosexual relationship. We are all capable of Yin and Yang aspects.

A successful relationship (regardless of gender) balances these aspects.

True that same gender couples cannot reproduce (other than with laboratory intervention) but there are plenty of mixed gender couples that can't reproduce or choose not to as well.

[ChiDragon]

Exactly - that is why there can be balance in a homosexual relationship. We are all capable of Yin and Yang aspects.

A successful relationship (regardless of gender) balances these aspects.

True that same gender couples cannot reproduce (other than with laboratory intervention) but there are plenty of mixed gender couples that can't reproduce or choose not to as well.

 

The fish eye means only the attribute for each of Yin or Yang. It simple means there are some female characteristics in the male; and there are some male characteristics in the female. By Nature, it is Yin and Yang based on the Tao Te Ching. By human behavior, it can be their own choice by not following the way of Nature.

 

By human behavior, it was due the size of the fish eye. If the Yin characteristics in the Yang are more dominant, then the Yang tends to behave like the Yin. If the Yang characteristics in the Yin are more dominant, then the Yin tends to behave like the Yang.

Edited August 27, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Stigweard]

Definitely agree with Steve here. The harmony of any relationship, regardless of gender of degree of sexual engagement, depends on the successful interaction of the yin/yang elements brought to the table (or mattress if that be the case -- I mean hey, someone still has to be on the receiving end don't they? ).

 

I always find it amusing to watch folks try and make arbitrary and purely conceptually based designations of what is and is not "natural".

 

ChiDragon you obviously think homosexuality is abnormal and unnatural, right? That it only occurs when humans have somehow divorced themselves from their natural state.

 

How abouts you get out of your arm-chair and have a real good hard look at the natural world.

 

There are over 500 species of animals that display homosexual behavior including:

 

• Black swans
  
• Gulls
  
• Ibises
  
• Mallards
  
• Penguins
  
• Vultures
  
• Pigeons
  
• Amazon Dolphin
  
• American Bison
  
• Bonobo and other apes
  
• Bottlenose dolphins
  
• Elephants
  
• Giraffes
  
• Humans
  
• Monkeys
  
• Japanese macaque
  
• Lions
  
• Polecat
  
• Sheep
  
• Spotted Hyena
  
• Lizards
  
• Dragonflies
  
• Fruit flies
  
• Bed bugs
  

 

So if an elephant exhibits homosexual behavior, is it all of a sudden not "natural" anymore??

 

And even if we could say there behavior is abnormal, in the sense of not being behavior normally exhibited, can we also slap that behavior as being "unnatural"?

 

Is it normal behavior, for example, for a mammal to sprout wings and fly through the air? Well normally mammals aren't the flying types so probably we would say that it would be an abnormal occurrence.

 

But then we have the flying-fox don't we?

 

So whilst we may say that the flying-fox is an abnormality in the realm of mammals, there is no way that you could not call them natural.

 

The reality is that genetic mutations and abnormalities are intrinsic within natural processes and evolution.

 

Though it may be normal (in the sense of being behavior normally exhibited) for humans to have heterosexual relationships and abnormal (in the sense of not being behavior normally exhibited) for humans to have homosexual relationships, there is absolutely no theoretic foundation for anyone to call either normal or abnormal behavior "unnatural" because, as I have said above, both normal and abnormal behavior IS "natural".

 

Back to the whole yin/yang discussion, the only really consideration is whether male-male relationships produce excessive yang energy or whether female-female relationships produce excessive yin energy. Either excess can lead to illness.

 

But if the couples can harmonize properly than there is every reason, and thousands of living examples, where homosexual relationships can be wholesome and beneficial.

 

And on the flip side (pardon the intended pun ), if a "normal" heterosexual couple are unable to harmonize properly then there is every reason, and millions of living examples, where heterosexual relationships can be destructive and debilitating.

 

[dawei]

Definitely agree with Steve here. The harmony of any relationship, regardless of gender of degree of sexual engagement, depends on the successful interaction of the yin/yang elements brought to the table (or mattress if that be the case -- I mean hey, someone still has to be on the receiving end don't they? ).

 

I always find it amusing to watch folks try and make arbitrary and purely conceptually based designations of what is and is not "natural".

It has essentially shocked me from the beginning of this issue to hear someone suggest that Laozi believes homosexuality is not normal (wrong). And it seems disingenuous to simply claim this is 'pure logic', particularly after same said person has repeatedly shown a distinction between western and eastern and "his people" (ie: chinese). I guess one will find any excuse to judge others; using Laozi seems a unique low. I guess we should just assume 100% application to concepts without any regard to variation in nature. I think if there was no homosexual attraction existent in nature (ie: including man) then we would have to seriously consider the idea of Dao to be wrong since it has put a fence around 'naturally arising'.

[ChiDragon]

Just answer the original question. OK....???

Edited August 28, 2011 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

Just answer the original question. OK....???

My answer to the original question.

Man ≠ Yang

Female human being ≠ Yin

Yin and Yang simply describe relative characteristics, they do not define human beings in their entirety.

 

Similarly, if you take cold water and ice water they are both cold. If you put a finger in each, one is warmer than the other.

If you mix them, the resulting temperature is in the middle. Yin and Yang are relative, not absolute.

 

So, any two people can enter into a relationship. The health of the relationship will depend on the skill with which they balance the various aspects of the relationship. This will be the case whether the relationship is simply friendship, sexual, or whatever. The sexual component can be healthy or unhealthy whether it is same gender or opposite gender.

 

Certainly, the "norm" or majority of sexual relationships are opposite gender and this is what fosters reproduction. Nevertheless, homosexuality has clearly been a part of humanity since the beginnings of recorded history and has at various times been accepted or rejected from a social and institutional perspective. It was widely accepted in ancient Greece and Rome, it was accepted in several Native American societies.

 

I guess you could look at it as a variation on a theme but it is a characteristic of humanity and therefore I think it would be an error to call it unnatural. If you have ever had close homosexual friends or family members, you would know that to them what they are doing feels in no way unnatural. It is who they are, be it a result of genetic or environmental factors. In fact, heterosexual relationships feel so completely unnatural to them that they struggle terribly when the try to stay "in the closet" and live the lie of heterosexuality. It is not an unusual cause for suicide in teens and young adults due to the extreme pain associated with not being able to be who the are and feeling forced to live in a manner that feels so completely unnatural.

[ChiDragon]

My answer to the original question.

Man ≠ Yang

Female human being ≠ Yin

 

I'll have to take it that you knew nothing about the Yin and the Yang. Period.

 

No offense, the issue was being addressed but not you.

Edited August 28, 2011 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

So you are saying that you, as a man, are 100% Yang. There is no Yin component to men and no Yang component to women.

 

No, I am not 100% Yang.

 

My answer to the original question.

Man ≠ Yang

Female human being ≠ Yin

Yin and Yang simply describe relative characteristics, they do not define human beings in their entirety.

 

I'll have to take it that you knew nothing about the Yin and the Yang. Period.

 

No offense, the issue was being addressed but not you.

Please don't quote me out of context to change the meaning of my post.

Let me clarify in case you misunderstood. Perhaps I was not as clear as I thought.

Man is not 100% Yang and Woman is not 100% Yin, that is the meaning of my use of ≠.

All human beings have Yin and Yang aspects.

There are women with very strong Yang energy and men with very strong Yin energy.

All possible variations exist.

You are unsuccessfully trying to oversimplify the nature of man/woman/Yin/Yang to support your ideas about homosexuality.

 

Perhaps I know nothing about Yin and Yang, that's certainly possible. I am not an authority on anything, other than perhaps wasting time on the computer.

But I do question your grasp of Daoist ideology in its entirety based on your comment:

Human is not part of nature but human has to deal with Nature.

That is about as far from Daoist ideology as I can imagine.

Would you care to elaborate on this conclusion and where it comes from?