Taoist and Buddhist Similarities?

[Seth Ananda]

Hi everyone. As the differences have been well discussed in 1000's of pages, I thought it might be nice to start a musing on the similarities between Taoism and Buddhism.

 

I would love to hear anyone's observations at all, but off the top of my head I can think of a couple of similarities I would like to know more about:

 

 

Wu Wei and Dzogchen?

 

Immortal Fetus/body and The Illusory body practices? How similar are they if at all?

 

The Non Conceptual attainments?

 

The Role of silence/stillness?

 

 

Hit me you awesome Bums!

[doc benway]

Wu Ji and Emptiness?

 

Tai Ji and Interdependent Origination?

 

Zuo Wang and Za Zen?

 

Buddhas and Daoist Immortals?

 

I think this thread has great potential - thanks Seth.

[Seth Ananda]

Wu Ji and Emptiness?

 

Tai Ji and Interdependent Origination?

 

Zuo Wang and Za Zen?

 

Buddhas and Daoist Immortals?

 

I think this thread has great potential - thanks Seth.

Awesome, I am excited already!

[mewtwo]

all i see are similaritys. cause laotzu and the buddha are but the same person.

[Vajrahridaya]

I think it depends upon the individual. Since there is no standard interpretation for Taoism, at least not to the degree as there is in Buddhism, there are those that seem to understand emptiness and inter-dependent origination through their own Taoist language and others which seem to reify one formless jhana or another just due to the nature of self clinging? So, some I would tentatively classify as monistic idealists, simply due to this very subtle tendency to cling to a high state of consciousness as a "self" of all, but others I would say have a subtler understanding that would be in alignment with Buddhist views.

[Red Pheonix]

These two have been intertwined since the spread of Buddhism (which is about half as old as Taoism), partially due to the physical proximity of cultures and also to the alternating whims of Emperors in China. Taoism started to grow with the Yellow Emperor nearly 5000 years ago, this was in the Qingcheng region which is on the edge of Tibet and China. This is where the 5 Elements came from as well as cultivation using air and fire. The older/shamanic methods are really quite brilliant, they way they get right down to animal nature in the way they connect to the Tao.

 

The real nitty gritty of the cross over came from the mountain Taoists in south eastern China (Qingcheng and Emei) and the Buddhist sects coming from Tibet. Today you can go to Tibet and learn cultivation methods that they will partially attribute to the Zhang family, the Zhang family also attributes part of the method to The Sect of the Living Buddha; there is no conflict although each side will represent the form according to their alchemical beliefs. You see this same theme over and over, the same physical form with similar, but distinctly separate explanations with respect to the internal alchemy.

 

Another thing that has muttled much of the two are the politics that have controlled them. Even today the land is wrought with political issues of ownership and religious ideology. For a long time they would have 1 Emperor that was Buddhist and the next would be Taoist; each would tear down the others temples and new factions would be created out of the old. Imagine being Buddhist or Taoist all of your life and suddenly having to convert because the one you chose was now illegal (you would most certainly carry some of your old traditions into the new belief). Unfortunately this is not an issue of the ancient times, it's still happening today.

[C T]

In a vast number of (Taoist)Chinese households in SE Asia, and also in those who have moved out of SE Asia, Taoist and Buddhist ritualistic practices are quite commonly married in a harmonious union. Traditionally in these people's homes there would have altars put up, upon which are laid various Taoist deities, and also Buddhist ones. No one there seem interested to argue about the differences since they are more concerned with being bestowed with bountiful blessings from both, and any bias shown is seen as detrimental to this flow of continual richness in spiritual and material endowments for the whole family.

 

Since mom is a religious Taoist, growing up, it was a requirement for all the family to visit the temples during the various Taoist religious festivals (and there are many!) and these places would be thronged with people seeking to ask for blessings, and those who also at the same time be making offerings for having received blessings. The interesting thing which one can see upon entering these holy grounds is that all of them would contain statues of Buddha Shakyamuni and other Buddhist icons, which would have been strategically located depending on the leanings of the individual abbots who oversee the daily affairs of their temples.

 

On the flip side, dad is an orthodox Buddhist, and the only real 'festival' he acknowledges and partakes of is Wesak/Vesak, during which time he would take my brother and myself to the various Buddhist monasteries to participate in the celebratory processions. Strangely enough, in none of these monasteries have i seen even one single display resembling anything Taoistic.

 

Now, the strangest thing i have observed from the ritualistic religious observances in the Chinese of SE Asia is their overarching desire for wealth and materialistic accumulations, whereby in order for this to be made the likeliest outcome, they would go to any length to accommodate the various avenues where such blessings could potentially be most lucrative, not withstanding whether that be Taoist or Buddhist, and in some instances, some of these folks would even place the statue of Jesus upon their altars, and i swear, with my own eyes, i have witnessed a few instances where Sai Baba's photo also found a spot to sit on!

 

Over the years, i have occasionally tried to grasp the meaning behind this rather peculiar pattern found among the Taoists where they have no qualms to demonstrate obeisance to anything which they come to hear as having the power to grant them wish-fulfilling blessings, and i conclude that they are pretty much motivated by what transpires during one's lifetime, and to squeeze as much material and physical comforts as they can into and from it, even if this means getting the heavenly gods and the various earth deities to interject on their behalf. For this, they are happy to bribe their way into these gods' favor, and in return, can be tremendously generous in returning such favors when granted. They are not so concerned with enlightenment and liberation, at least not in the same league as the Buddhists.

 

Hence, from the above musings, i concluded that the Chinese (i am speaking of Chinese folks outside of China here - strange but true) can be most pragmatic when it comes to this life and what it offers, whereas for those who adhere strictly to the Buddhist doctrinal paths, this life is only a transitory phase where one rare opportunity has been gifted, without which one could well be stuck in the different realms with no possibility to make full use of this life to wash off one's karma and remove obstacles towards liberation from samsara, and for this, it requires one's personal effort, as exemplified by Buddha Shakyamuni's supreme enlightenment, and no amount of blessings from the gods will be sufficient to warrant surrendering personal effort in exchange for faith in the gods' mighty hands of destiny.

 

 

 

Nevertheless, i think peace can be enhanced from learning to be flexible enough to use whatever is available to remain in the natural state without struggling with this and that, and also, in the process, we can save energy by not arguing which path is the more superior. In the end, its how we are able to let it all go that really matters, so i would be really interested to hear some Western Taoist views on how this letting go is practiced from their standpoint. You see, for the majority of Eastern Taoists, they dont cultivate the way you guys do... they tend to indulge as much as possible in physical materialism while alive, and then, even more of the same after they die, by getting BMW-driving Taoist priests to do elaborate chastising, sin-abating, bribe-inducing transitory death rituals to the gods of Hades so that they will be reborn into ever greater freedom from all the materialistic wants of life, using this life as a sort of springboard towards their next life's goals. And as to the funeral costs for these rich Taoists, well, lets just say that no expense is spared, no corners cut, and nothing is cheapened...

 

 

 

 

As for the similarities between the two, i am afraid i do not know enough of Taoism to offer an informed, experienced-back perspective to really do any justice here, so i will enjoy reading what others have to say.

 

Nice weekend, everyone!!

Edited August 26, 2011 by CowTao

[gendao]

^ Lol, well true - the masses generally reduce any religion down to begging magic genies for favors..

 

So, I think only accomplished Taoist & Buddhist masters could give us the real answers to this question.

 

However, my take on it is that Buddhism & Taoism may both point to similar views on the true nature of reality.

For example, Buddhism posits non-dual (undivided), interdependent origination...

 

Whereas, Taoism basically posits a xiantian (non-dimensional) wuji (non-polar/dual) "Tao" that cannot be defined. Because something inherently undefined cannot be defined! This squares with a Buddhist "interdependently originated" flux that also has no inherent "baseline" definition.

 

Both traditions also place a very heavy emphasis on "emptiness" - in both practice and theory. Which may include paradoxically "realizing you don't exist" and "rebalancing back to zero." With zero being the only xiantian non-dimensional point in our houtian dimensional plane.

 

Well, that's just my n00by ramblings for starters! GREAT question though, I love it!!!

Edited August 26, 2011 by vortex

[Aetherous]

they tend to indulge as much as possible in physical materialism while alive, and then, even more of the same after they die, by getting BMW-driving Taoist priests to do elaborate chastising, sin-abating, bribe-inducing transitory death rituals to the gods of Hades so that they will be reborn into ever greater freedom from all the materialistic wants of life, using this life as a sort of springboard towards their next life's goals.

 

Sweet! I'd rather meditate in a BMW, than a smelly oldsmobile that's about to break down. Life affirming religions rock.

[~riverflow]

One of my first, and main attractions, to the Daodejing is also what attracted me to Zen/Chan Buddhism (which was certainly influenced by Daoism, giving Zen Buddhism its own distinctive flavor), is the recognition of the inherent limitations of language and conceptual thought.

 

Much of Zen discourse and koans are also reminiscent of the more irrational stories of Zhuangzi, and the specific meditation form of "silent illumination" (which was to later become shikantaza in Japan later, largely through Dogen's efforts) was influenced (so I understand) by certain Daoist meditative practices.

 

There were Zen masters who wrote commentaries on the Daodejing and the Chinese were often not too concerned about ideological purity, mixing Confucian, Daoist and Buddhist ideas and practices together. The influence of Daoism left a huge mark on Buddhism when it arrived in China, with practices often different from other forms of Buddhism elsewhere.

 

I consider myself closer to Buddhism than Daoism per se, but I think there is more to learn from both than from just one or the other, though perhaps some of my interpretations of the Daodejing might seem a bit unusual, having a more explicitly Buddhist take on it. But cross-fertilization is a good thing I think... :-)

[doc benway]

For me, the Xin Xin Ming is a wonderful example of Daoist and Buddhist similarity and is one of my favorite writings.

Traditionally attribute to the third Chinese Zen Patriarch Sengcan, but possibly written later, it's a must read for anyone interested in Chan, Zen, or Daoism (IMO)...

It's readily available for free online such as here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zen/fm/fm.htm

[doc benway]

 

Nice weekend, everyone!!

Yeah man, a little earthquake on Wednesday and Irene tomorrow!

Dao is rockin and rollin the East Coast this week...

[C T]

Yeah man, a little earthquake on Wednesday and Irene tomorrow!

Dao is rockin and rollin the East Coast this week...

As an afterthought, a prayer for a safe weekend, please, to all folks over on the East Coast... _/\_

 

Heard the news. Its a biggie. Any chance of it changing its course?

 

Mind yourself if you are in that general direction.

[C T]

Sweet! I'd rather meditate in a BMW, than a smelly oldsmobile that's about to break down. Life affirming religions rock.

What a coincidence! I was just reading this write-up http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/affirming.html an hour ago...

 

I like my Honda pedal bike. Had a BMW last year - sold it when price of fuel rocketed over here. Damn the wars.

Edited August 26, 2011 by CowTao

[doc benway]

Excellent post vortex. I though I'd add some of my thoughts to the mix.

 

Wu Ji = 無極

Wu = on, absence of, nothingness

Ji = central pillar or beam, roof, ultimate, pole (as in Earth's pole), extreme or terminus

 

Wu Ji refers to emptiness, limitlessness, infinite, without pole (ie without polarity), and literally means without a central beam or roof, or even without extreme. In my interpretation, Wu Ji refers to void or emptiness in a manner completely analogous to that in Buddhism. It is the aspect of existence where we are unable to actually identify or quantify any absolute or discreet substance. It is reflected in modern physics as we are increasingly unable to identify and concrete building blocks of nature other than forms of energy. It can just as easily be looked at as a positive affirmation of non-duality, non-polarity, analogous to the Vedanta perspective.

 

Tai Ji = 太極

Tai = supreme, greatest, biggest, large, furthest

Ji = as above

 

Tai Ji is usually translated as Supreme Ultimate, however, the connotation here, IMO, is polarity. Ultimate referring to end or terminus or pole and Tai Ji therefore referring to extreme opposites or opposite poles, polarity. One pole is named Yang and the furthest pole apart is Yin. Tai Ji is the opposite and polar nature of existence. Tai Ji is the balance and interplay between the polarity of existence. And Tai Ji also relates to the totality of existence, the fact that both poles are inextricably linked together. They can never be without each other, they quite literally define each other.

 

So in Daoist cosmology we're taught that Wu Ji gives rise to or gives birth to Tai Ji. I think one common mistake we make is to think of this in Newtonian terms. Our minds naturally think in terms of cause and effect and time. But I think it's a mistake to think as if at one point in time, earlier, there was Wu Ji and at some point afterwards there is Tai Ji. In my interpretation, Wu Ji and Tai Ji coexist always. There is an underlying aspect to existence that is void, that is there is no stuff, no concrete building blocks of existence, emptiness. This is the nature of existence absent the sensory experience and interpretation of living awareness. And concurrently there is Tai Ji which is the distinction that is associated with that very awareness that evokes beauty out of wave forms and substance out of energy. So Wu Ji is always there underneath, and Tai Ji is always the overlay created by our awareness and discrimination of Yin and Yang. And there is alway Yin and Yang, never one without the other. That's clearly shown in the Tai Ji diagram.

 

So in my estimation, Wu Ji and Tai Ji are identical to Emptiness and Interdependent Origination. The subtle differences are a consequence of language and cultural differences. Any major differences, IMO, are simply a reflection of misinterpretation.

[forestofclarity]

I'm not sure that is the analogy to make in my opinion. Emptiness in my mind generally refers to a lack. You cannot buy something with a lack of money, and so emptiness cannot give rise to something. Emptiness does, however, allow the arising and passing of things.

 

Also, IO is a relational state, i.e. a useful mental concept. They are more along the lines of concepts, in my mind, than of things (or non things).

 

I do think you can draw certain analogies with wu ji and tai ji and Buddhism, but I won't go into those now.

 

One striking similarity is the method, at least with certain Taoists: wu wei and non-clinging.

 

So in my estimation, Wu Ji and Tai Ji are identical to Emptiness and Interdependent Origination. The subtle differences are a consequence of language and cultural differences. Any major differences, IMO, are simply a reflection of misinterpretation.

Edited August 27, 2011 by forestofemptiness

[doc benway]

Emptiness in my mind generally refers to a lack.

Emptiness can also represent total potential without distinction, boundary, or form.

I think that's more what Wu Ji as well as Emptiness in Buddhist doctrine is intended to convey. Buddhists and Daoists seem to be fairly quick to remind us that we are not speaking in nihilistic terms when we refer to these concepts.

But it's just my opinion and I'm no authority on either Buddhism or Daoism just blundering through some ideas...

Thanks for your comments.

[forestofclarity]

Of course, there are no experts and one is free to believe as we choose. I offer my opinions only as they are helpful, and of course they will probably change.

 

My current understanding is that the Buddhist teachings of emptiness arose in part based on a disagreement in the Buddhist world. The old school, the Theravada, taught that all compounded things lack a self. However, the elements themselves had a self nature (svabhava). The prajnaparamita literature and the teachings of Nagarjuna and the Madhyamaka arose in part as a response to this.

 

The teachings of emptiness were aimed specifically at self-nature, or essence, or an independent, enduring self. This includes even the elements.

 

So to take an example, there is no essence of motion or an essence of a mover. The mover and the motion arise together and depend on each other. Without motion, there is no mover, without a mover there is no motion. This doesn't mean that things don't move (nihilism). Both motion and the mover lack an independent self-- they arise and pass away together.

 

Realizing this leads to less clinging, and this is the Buddha way.

 

Wu in Taoism, as described here, is different. This isn't to say that the ideas are not complimentary, I just don't think they are quite the same. In fact, in Chan, you see both used. In Chinese, different characters are used--- for the Buddhist emptiness, we see kong 空 instead of wu 無.

 

 

Emptiness can also represent total potential without distinction, boundary, or form.

[doc benway]

Of course, there are no experts and one is free to believe as we choose. I offer my opinions only as they are helpful, and of course they will probably change.

 

My current understanding is that the Buddhist teachings of emptiness arose in part based on a disagreement in the Buddhist world. The old school, the Theravada, taught that all compounded things lack a self. However, the elements themselves had a self nature (svabhava). The prajnaparamita literature and the teachings of Nagarjuna and the Madhyamaka arose in part as a response to this.

 

The teachings of emptiness were aimed specifically at self-nature, or essence, or an independent, enduring self. This includes even the elements.

 

So to take an example, there is no essence of motion or an essence of a mover. The mover and the motion arise together and depend on each other. Without motion, there is no mover, without a mover there is no motion. This doesn't mean that things don't move (nihilism). Both motion and the mover lack an independent self-- they arise and pass away together.

 

Realizing this leads to less clinging, and this is the Buddha way.

 

Wu in Taoism, as described here, is different. This isn't to say that the ideas are not complimentary, I just don't think they are quite the same. In fact, in Chan, you see both used. In Chinese, different characters are used--- for the Buddhist emptiness, we see kong 空 instead of wu 無.

Nice post, I've generally found your comments to be valuable and appreciated - you're probably correct in your assessment. The Daoists don't seem to have been too focused on the presence or absence of Atman or absolute self. They certainly seem to have been coming from a different place than the Buddhists. They certainly don't seem to have been as focused on the whole problem of suffering, or at least not as explicitly. And yet it seems to me as if they had already reached the conclusion of the absence of a first cause, or absolute existence of self, or even of the elements, hence the concept wu ji --> tai ji --> elements --> 10,000 things.

 

Kong is more literally empty and can refer to air or sky. Wu is used along with Ji which to me is more suggestive of non-dual. So you are correct that they're not equivalent. Thanks for bringing that out.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

A quote from Chuang Tzu, book 24, ch.12:

 

".. Hence there are none whom he brings very near to himself and none whom he keeps at a great distance. he keeps his virtue in close embrace and warmly nourishes the spirit of harmony, so as to be in accord with all men. Thsi is called the true man. Even the knowledge of the ant he puts away. his plans are simply those of the fishes. Even the notions of the sheep he discards. His seeing is simply that of the eye, his hearing that of the ear; his mind is governed by its general exercises. Being such, his course is straight and level as if marked out by a line, and its every change is in accordance with the circumstances of the case."

[Seth Ananda]

A quote from Chuang Tzu, book 24, ch.12:

 

".. Hence there are none whom he brings very near to himself and none whom he keeps at a great distance. he keeps his virtue in close embrace and warmly nourishes the spirit of harmony, so as to be in accord with all men. Thsi is called the true man. Even the knowledge of the ant he puts away. his plans are simply those of the fishes. Even the notions of the sheep he discards. His seeing is simply that of the eye, his hearing that of the ear; his mind is governed by its general exercises. Being such, his course is straight and level as if marked out by a line, and its every change is in accordance with the circumstances of the case."

Awesome!

[Informer]

They both have an awakening or readiness that must be accomplished to achieve further insights. Without this, words can't even begin to convey the truth.

 

 

Both of the teachings alter perspective, and show you another way to look at things.

 

They both lead to energy work.