[TTC Study] Chapter 64 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 64

 

John Wu

 

What is at rest is easy to hold.

What manifests no omens is easily forestalled.

What is fragile is easily shattered.

What is small is easily scattered.

Tackle things before they have appeared.

Cultivate peace and order before confusion and disorder have set in.

A tree as big as a man's embrace springs from a tiny sprout.

A tower nine stories high begins with a heap of earth.

A journey of a thousand leagues starts from where your feet stand.

He who fusses over anything spoils it.

He who grasps anything loses it.

The Sage fusses over nothing and therefore spoils nothing.

He grips at nothing and therefore loses nothing.

In handling affairs, people often spoil them just at the point of success.

With heedfulness in the beginning and patience at the end, nothing will be spoiled.

Therefore, the Sage desires to be desireless,

Sets no value on rare goods,

Learns to unlearn his learning,

And induces the masses to return from where they have overpassed.

He only helps all creatures to find their own nature,

But does not venture to lead them by the nose.

 

 

English/Feng

 

Peace is easily maintained;

Trouble is easily overcome before it starts.

The brittle is easily shattered;

The small is easily scattered.

Deal with it before it happens.

Set things in order before there is confusion.

A tree as great as a man's embrace springs up from a small shoot;

A terrace nine stories high begins with a pile of earth;

A journey of a thousand miles starts under one's feet.

He who acts defeats his own purpose;

He who grasps loses.

The sage does not act, and so is not defeated.

He does not grasp and therefore does not lose.

People usually fail when they are on the verge of success.

So give as much care to the end as to the beginning;

Then there will be no failure.

Therefore the sage seeks freedom from desire.

He does not collect precious things.

He learns not to hold on to ideas.

He brings men back to what they have lost.

He help the ten thousand things find their own nature,

But refrains from action.

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

What is at rest is easy to hold;

What has not yet given a sign is easy to plan for;

The brittle is easily shattered;

The minute is easily scattered;

Act on it before it comes into being;

Order it before it turns into chaos.

A tree [so big] that it takes both arms to surround starts out as the tiniest shoot;

A nine-story terrace rises up from a basket of dirt.

A high place one hundred, one thousand feet high begins from under your feet.

Those who act on it ruin it;

Those who hold on to it lose it.

Therefore the Sage does not act,

And as a result, he doesn't ruin [things];

He does not hold on to [things],

And as a result, he doesn't lose [things];

In people's handling of affairs, they always ruin things when they're right at the point of completion.

Therefore we say, "If you're as careful at the end as you were at the beginning, you'll have no failures."

Therefore the Sage desires not to desire and doesn't value goods that are hard to obtain;

He learns not to learn and returns to what the masses pass by;

He could help all things to be natural, yet he dare not do it.

 

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[Lotus7]

This is a wonderful chapter! I find my self often dreaming of what my life will be in 15 maybe 20 years, and I get overwhelmed. I have all of these dreams and goals that I can foresee myself going through with. However, when I focus to much on what I desire for my life, I tend to neglect what is in the present moment.

There is a really great line from a Bright Eyes song: "My mind races with all my longings, but I can't keep up with what I got." I place so much emphasis and ATTACHMENT on the future that I lose grasp of the NOW.

I am very thankful that you posted this particular chapter when you did. I am sort of at a pivotal point in my young existence. There is a lot of potential in my future, and I often find myself daydreaming about what could be, instead of what IS.

The line, "He who grasps anything loses it." was really eyeopening. Sometimes, when looked back upon, it feels as if I am reaching for things while leaning over the edge of a cliff .

So I guess what I really absorbed from this chapter: It is alright to have high expectations for the future, but be mindful that it has to start with one step. If I attempt to focus to hard on the determined goal, it simply becomes farther from my reach.

Patience.

 

Hope this was somewhat in line with what 'ol Lao Tzu was trying to say. That is how it imprinted on me.

 

Namaste, Matt

[Marblehead]

 

So I guess what I really absorbed from this chapter: It is alright to have high expectations for the future, but be mindful that it has to start with one step. If I attempt to focus to hard on the determined goal, it simply becomes farther from my reach. Patience.

 

Hope this was somewhat in line with what 'ol Lao Tzu was trying to say. That is how it imprinted on me.

 

Namaste, Matt

 

Hey, hehehe, from what you said above I would say you got it. We have to be mindful of the moment so we don't walk over the cliff while we are pursuing our tomorrows.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 64 - How to handle matters.

1. A peaceful situation was easier to be handled,

2. Without knowing the future outcome is easier to be planned ahead.

 

3. Finding the weakness of a matter is an easy way to a solution.

4. What is microscopic is easy to be diminished.

 

5. Take care of all matters before the trouble begins.

6. Make the proper preparation before a disaster occurs.

 

7. A tree that can be embraced by people with their hands held together,

8. Was grown from a germinated sprout.

 

9. A nine story tower,

10. Was built from a heap of soil.

 

11. A thousand mile journey,

12. Begins with the sole of the foot.

 

13. People's affairs always failed, at the end, when they were almost succeeded.

14. With caution at the end as it was at the beginning,

15. Then, there would be no failure.

 

第六十四章

1. 其 安 易 持,

2. 其 未 兆 易 謀;

3. 其 脆 易 泮,

4. 其 微 易 散。

5. 為 之 於 未 有,

6. 治 之 於 未 亂。

7. 合 抱 之 木

8. 生 於 毫 末,

9. 九 層 之 台

10.起 於 累 土,

11.千 里 之 行,

12.始 於 足 下,

13.民 之 從 事 常 於 幾 成 而 敗 之 。

14.慎 終 如 始,

15.則 無 敗 事。

[Marblehead]

Hi ChiDragon,

 

If you clean up lines 1 - 4 and 13 - 15 grammatically I think you would have a good translation.

 

I know you aren't placing a lot of emphasis on this but I have to read this stuff you offer us. Hehehe.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 64 - How to handle matters(revised).

1. In a peaceful situation, all matters would be easier to be handled.

2. Without knowing the future outcome, it would be easier to be planned ahead.

 

3. Finding the weakness of a matter, it would be an easy way to a solution.

4. A microscopic matter is easy to be diminished.

5. Take care of all matters before the trouble begins.

6. Make the proper preparation before a disaster occurs.

 

7. A tree that can be embraced by people with their hands held together,

8. Was grown from a germinated sprout.

 

9. A nine story tower,

10. Was built from a heap of soil.

 

11. A thousand mile journey,

12. Begins with the sole of the foot.

 

13. It seems to be that the people always fail, at the point, where their affairs almost succeed.

14. If people use caution at the end as they were at the beginning,

15. Then, there will be no failure.

[Marblehead]

Okay. That reads better.

 

4. A microscopic matter is easy to be diminished.

 

Still clunky.

 

Nice and easy.

 

A small matter is easy to deal with.

[konchog uma]

 

What is at rest is easy to hold.

What manifests no omens is easily forestalled.

What is fragile is easily shattered.

What is small is easily scattered.

Tackle things before they have appeared.

Cultivate peace and order before confusion and disorder have set in.

 

i like how this builds on the last chapter. it reminds me to meditate when i don't feel like i "need" to meditate, but when i feel calm and centered anyway. prevention is worth a thousand cures. when i sit on the mornings i feel great, i can ride that vibe easily into a charge that i carry with me throughout the day.

 

 

 

A tree as big as a man's embrace springs from a tiny sprout.

A tower nine stories high begins with a heap of earth.

A journey of a thousand leagues starts from where your feet stand.

 

this reminds me to constantly let go throughout the day, like each thing i chose not to let frustrate me could be the snowball that turns into an avalanche later if im not careful. since i live in a city, leaving my house is like "let it go, let that go, oh let that go too" constantly, but with mindfulness i don't get too stressed out

 

 

He who fusses over anything spoils it.

He who grasps anything loses it.

The Sage fusses over nothing and therefore spoils nothing.

He grips at nothing and therefore loses nothing.

In handling affairs, people often spoil them just at the point of success.

With heedfulness in the beginning and patience at the end, nothing will be spoiled.

Therefore, the Sage desires to be desireless,

Sets no value on rare goods,

Learns to unlearn his learning,

And induces the masses to return from where they have overpassed.

He only helps all creatures to find their own nature,

But does not venture to lead them by the nose.

 

i love paradoxes like "desires to be desireless" and "learns to unlearn ones learning". reconciling paradox is fundamental to the human endeavor, as it expresses itself though philosophy, and master lao's are some of the most eloquent.

 

this reminds me to embrace things gently, myself included.

 

marblehead, what you said about walking off the cliff lost in thoughts is the very image of card zero in the tarot deck, "the fool", and its message is just what you said. its widely acknowledged as the only card in the major arcana to survive the christian church's persecution of heretics, and make its way into the modern deck of playing cards as the joker. chapter 64 definitely reminds me of the lesson of the fool, to return to simplicity, grounded in the moment.

[ChiDragon]

Okay. That reads better.

 

4. A microscopic matter is easy to be diminished.

 

Still clunky.

 

Nice and easy.

 

A small matter is easy to deal with.

Thank you.

 

"A small matter is easy to deal with."

Line 4 did not say that.

 

Perhaps...

4. 其 微 易 散。

4. Little things are easily to be disintegrated.

[Marblehead]

i like how this builds on the last chapter. it reminds me to meditate when i don't feel like i "need" to meditate, but when i feel calm and centered anyway. prevention is worth a thousand cures. when i sit on the mornings i feel great, i can ride that vibe easily into a charge that i carry with me throughout the day.

 

Yes prevention, and avoidance, will keep us out of a lot of trouble.

 

this reminds me to constantly let go throughout the day, like each thing i chose not to let frustrate me could be the snowball that turns into an avalanche later if im not careful. since i live in a city, leaving my house is like "let it go, let that go, oh let that go too" constantly, but with mindfulness i don't get too stressed out

 

Yeah, living in a big city can be a hassle. I have a big city close to me but I try to do everything locally or on the internet.

 

And I agree, we need to let go. We need to ask frequently, "Does it matter?" If it does "really" matter then there is no reason to bother with thinking about it.

 

i love paradoxes like "desires to be desireless" and "learns to unlearn ones learning". reconciling paradox is fundamental to the human endeavor, as it expresses itself though philosophy, and master lao's are some of the most eloquent.

 

this reminds me to embrace things gently, myself included.

 

marblehead, what you said about walking off the cliff lost in thoughts is the very image of card zero in the tarot deck, "the fool", and its message is just what you said. its widely acknowledged as the only card in the major arcana to survive the christian church's persecution of heretics, and make its way into the modern deck of playing cards as the joker. chapter 64 definitely reminds me of the lesson of the fool, to return to simplicity, grounded in the moment.

 

Yeah, I just mentioned about paradoxes when I read my first TTC. I laughed because my mind was too narrow, or too closed or too whatever, for me to see the depth of the paradoxes. Now, of course, I love them - they cause deeper thought.

 

Hehehe. I'm not 'into' tarot either.

 

But yes, the more simple we can design our life (around our inner essence) the more pleasurable our life will be.

 

Your words "... grounded in the moment." caused me memories of one of our members, Rene. She is the person who helped my understand the concept of keeping one foot grounded in 'yo' (the Manifest) (in the moment) and the other grounded in 'wu' (the Mystery). We sometimes have to shift our weight but we should try to remain grounded in both.

[dawei]

Thank you.

 

"A small matter is easy to deal with."

Line 4 did not say that.

 

Perhaps...

4. 其 微 易 散。

4. Little things are easily to be disintegrated.

4. Little things are [more] easily disintegrated.

 

But better would be:

 

4. Little things are easily dispersed.

 

Think militarily for the ruler: A small threat is more easily dispersed

 

---

 

The first four lines still need some work.

Edited August 27, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

 

Perhaps...

4. 其 微 易 散。

4. Little things are easily to be disintegrated.

 

I would go along with that. Yes.

 

 

Hehehe. Okay, I will go along with what Dawei said.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Marblehead

[konchog uma]

Yeah, I just mentioned about paradoxes when I read my first TTC. I laughed because my mind was too narrow, or too closed or too whatever, for me to see the depth of the paradoxes. Now, of course, I love them - they cause deeper thought.

 

Hehehe. I'm not 'into' tarot either.

 

But yes, the more simple we can design our life (around our inner essence) the more pleasurable our life will be.

 

Your words "... grounded in the moment." caused me memories of one of our members, Rene. She is the person who helped my understand the concept of keeping one foot grounded in 'yo' (the Manifest) (in the moment) and the other grounded in 'wu' (the Mystery). We sometimes have to shift our weight but we should try to remain grounded in both.

 

i that case i will spare you the resemblance between that last paragraph and the temperence card

 

i am decidedly into tarot.

 

but i am glad you embraced paradox, and glad to hear about your growth, and that i remind you of people you think of fondly.

[lienshan]

John Wu

 

He who fusses over anything spoils it.

He who grasps anything loses it.

The Sage fusses over nothing and therefore spoils nothing.

He grips at nothing and therefore loses nothing.

 

English/Feng

 

He who acts defeats his own purpose;

He who grasps loses.

The sage does not act, and so is not defeated.

He does not grasp and therefore does not lose.

 

Robert Henricks

 

Those who act on it ruin it;

Those who hold on to it lose it.

Therefore the Sage does not act,

And as a result, he doesn't ruin [things];

He does not hold on to [things],

And as a result, he doesn't lose [things];

Chapter 64 is two chapters in the Guodian version, and the second of these two chapters

is in two variations; Laozi rewrote the second chapter changing "chang wei" into "wu wei":

 

He who is will lose it.

He who holds will lose it.

So the sage will lose doing it.

Therefore disappear losing not lost.

 

He who is will lose it.

He who holds will lose it.

The sage has no being.

Therefore no loss no losing.

 

The above edit is in classical chinese interesting seen from grammatical point of view

but I will spare you for the details and instead stick to my own reading of these lines:

 

The drunken one dropping his fourteenth glass of beer on the floor isn't the sage,

but the man entitled the sage! A man is an objective existence while a sage is

a subjective non existence.

[on the path]

Flowing Hands:

 

 

CHAPTER 64

If people knew of the ways of nature, and their hearts were simple,

peace would be dear to them.

Trouble can be easily overcome, because their lives are simple,

and so their troubles are simple too.

All things stem from something;

knowing this, trouble can be avoided before it arises.

Because the Sage knows of the ways of nature, he is freed from the bond of desire.

He does not notice gold and jade.

His ideas are open and yielding.

He helps men find themselves when they are lost, and remains at one.

So he leaves the Ten Thousand Things to follow their natural course.

[Marblehead]

i that case i will spare you the resemblance between that last paragraph and the temperence card

 

That's great. Thanks. Hehehe.

 

i am decidedly into tarot.

 

I could tell.

 

but i am glad you embraced paradox, and glad to hear about your growth, and that i remind you of people you think of fondly.

 

Yeah. One thing leads to another.

 

And yeah again. I even try to get a little paradoxical sometimes. It normally gets lost in translation though. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

Chapter 64 is two chapters in the Guodian version, and the second of these two chapters

is in two variations; Laozi rewrote the second chapter changing "chang wei" into "wu wei":

 

I don't like either one of those. Hehehe.

 

But then, there have been times when I didn't even like myself so don't feel bad about it, Okay?

[Marblehead]

Flowing Hands:

 

I actually like that. Again, an interpretation but a very good one, I think.

[lienshan]

John Wu

 

What is at rest is easy to hold.

What manifests no omens is easily forestalled.

What is fragile is easily shattered.

What is small is easily scattered.

 

English/Feng

 

Peace is easily maintained;

Trouble is easily overcome before it starts.

The brittle is easily shattered;

The small is easily scattered.

 

Robert Henricks

 

What is at rest is easy to hold;

What has not yet given a sign is easy to plan for;

The brittle is easily shattered;

The minute is easily scattered;

The corresponding Guodian lines consist of two philosophical arguements;

both in the typical Laozi formula: B of A is like D of C

 

The changed clasp of its steadiness is like the changed 6th line of its not yet topline.

The changed number 2 of its number 3 is like the changed walkability of its how many?

 

What Laozi comments on in a humorous way is the chapter 1 paragraph 1 of the Shuo Gua;

a Huang Lao ten wings text (paragraph 2 is the confucian similarity) of the I Ching:

 

In the beginning, when the sage's written change was the dark help from spirit and insight

and gave birth to milfoil, was number 3 heaven and number 2 earth, but rely on the numbers.

Observe the movement from yin to yang then establish fortune telling brushing strokes

from curved broken to bent straight and give birth to the 6th topline.

Agreement is Dao and De of obeying logic.

The righteousness of ruling logic is the empty male qi ending naturally

by means of landing from command.

[Marblehead]

Agreement is Dao and De of obeying logic.

 

That's an interesting concept. Don't know where to start with it though. Maybe later.

 

Just for reference, here is Henricks' Guodian translation of Chapter 64:

 

(A:6) Chapter 64

 

1 Those who act on it ruin it,

2 Those who hold on to it lose it.

3 Therefore the Sage does nothing, and as a result he has no disasters;

4 He holds on to nothing, and as a result he loses nothing.

 

5 The rule to follow in approaching all matters, is - -

6 If you're as careful at the end as you were at the beginning

7 You will have no disasters.

 

8 The Sage desires not to desire and places no value on goods that are hard to obtain.

9 He teaches without teaching, and backs away from matters in which the masses go to excess.

 

10 As a result, the Sage is able to help the ten thousand things to be what they are in themselves, and yet he cannot do it.

 

And:

 

(A:14) Chapter 64

 

1 What is at rest is easy to hold

2 What has not yet given a sigh is easy to plan for.

3 What is fragile is easily broken.

4 What is minute is easily scattered.

 

5 Act on it when it does not exist;

6 Establish order before it turns into chaos.

 

7 The biggest of trees

8 Grows from the tiniest shoot;

9 A tower nine stories high

10 Begins with one pile of dirt;

11 A height of eight hundred feet

12 Starts from under your foot.

 

Plus:

 

(C:4) Chapter 64, part 2

 

1 Those who act on it ruin it,

2 Those who hold on to it lose it.

3 The Sage does nothing, and as a result he has no disasters;

4 He holds on to nothing, and as a result he loses nothing.

 

5 If you're as careful at the end as you were at the beginning, you'll have no disasters.

6 As for people's disasters -- they always ruin things when they're just about to complete them.

 

7 Therefore, the Sage desires not to desire and places no value on goods that are hard to obtain;

8 He learns how to unlearn and backs away from matters in which the masses go to excess.

 

9 Therefore, the Sage could help the ten thousand things to be what they are in themselves, but he dare not do it.

 

 

So which is the most correct? The one you like the best, I suppose.

[lienshan]

That's an interesting concept.

The concept is a steady line instead of the wellknown changing line. That'll say:

The Huang Lao hexagrams had one steady line and five "changing lines".

The Zhou Yi hexagrams had one changing line and five "steady lines".

 

So which is the most correct? The one you like the best, I suppose.

I prefer the last C-version in chinese, because Laozi editted it himself! In chinese:

 

sheng ren wu wei

 

All other versions:

 

shi yi sheng ren wu wei

 

The characters shi yi (therefore) omits a zhi character.

A zhi character marks sheng ren (sage) as an objective phrase.

Laozi's own edition without an omitted zhi character marks sheng ren

as a subjective phrase according to general grammar rule.

 

wu marks wei as a noun! That'll say either a doing or a being.

 

It's boring boring grammar, but the line is very very important in Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

It's boring boring grammar, but the line is very very important in Tao Teh Ching

 

Hehehe. Yep, but, if we do not use the proper wordage and grammer we may present a misunderstanding to the one who is reading.

 

Of course, this is why it is important to ask questions too.

[lienshan]

Hehehe. Yep, but, if we do not use the proper wordage and grammer

we may present a misunderstanding to the one who is reading.

If Laozi would have wanted to say Therefore has the sage not a doing he would have written:

gu sheng ren wu wei

 

sheng ren wu wei means The sage has not a doing.

shi yi sheng ren wu wei means Therefore has the holy man not a doing.

 

sheng ren meaning sage is subjective

sheng ren meaning holy man is objective

 

The difference must have been important to Laozi since he removed shi yi from the C-version

and did not replace it with gu that too mean Therefore (without an omitted zhi)

Edited August 27, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Yeah, you have me at a language disadvantage again. Hehehe.

 

All I know is that if it doesn't sound logical in my little pea-brain I will question it. If I don't get satisfactory answers (according to my judgement) I will likely trash it. Just the way I am and I am too old to change that even if I wanted to and I really don't want to.

 

So you go ahead and fuss with the wordage, I'll present my input regarding the grammer, but understand that if I don't like your finished product you know what I am going to do with it. Hehehe.

 

Anyhow, yes, I still enjoy looking at the TTC from different translation perspectives and as we have a one-on-one discussion going here I would ask you to keep up the good work.

[lienshan]

John Wu

 

The Sage fusses over nothing and therefore spoils nothing.

He grips at nothing and therefore loses nothing.

 

English/Feng

 

The sage does not act, and so is not defeated.

He does not grasp and therefore does not lose.

 

Robert Henricks

 

Therefore the Sage does not act, And as a result, he doesn't ruin [things];

He does not hold on to [things], And as a result, he doesn't lose [things];

 

Robert Henricks (Guodian A)

 

Therefore the Sage does nothing, and as a result he has no disasters;

He holds on to nothing, and as a result he loses nothing.

 

Robert Henricks (Guodian C)

 

The Sage does nothing, and as a result he has no disasters;

He holds on to nothing, and as a result he loses nothing.

 

My own reading (Guodian C)

 

The sage has not a doing.

Therefore no loss no losing.

 

The problem is to explain logically, why a sage doesn't lose it while a man does?

Henrick's "does nothing" is "the feet on the table and relax" philosophy.

John Wu places the "therefore" in the middle of the line; obvious a mistranslation.

Feng/English do like John Wu but do too mistranslate "therefore" as "so"?