[TTC Study] Chapter 64 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dust]

 

A current working hypothesis is that the

Guodian Laozi should be attributed to Laozi, also called Lao Dan, a contemporary

of Confucius who may have outlived him, and that the remainder, the non—Guodian

text, was the work of an archivist and dates from around 375 B.C (Robert)

 

This is closer to reality, but still seems a bit odd. One writer, originally, OK; but just one post-editor?

 

 

Thats certainly how the scribe undertstood it, but I think the scribe omitted the reference to the people becouse it made no sense to him . Same with the next line 學不學 where the reference to the populace is retained but is still read as a reference to the sage not the populace.

 

Now when i see 'not to teach' and 'populace' in the same sentence i can not but recall Confucious'

 

Well, I'm unsure as to whether he meant 學不學 or 教不教. Learn or teach? Or does the character mean both?

 

We have in ch.2 a pretty close parallel:

 

是以聖人居亡為之事 As the wise man lives without acting,

行不言之教（學） And teaches (learns) without talking,

萬勿作而弗怠也 Life flourishes without resting,

為而弗志也 Acts without ambition

 

The character in the GD ch.64 is the same as here, 行不言之教, which would mean that in 64 he meant 教不教

though it's equally possible that the ch.2 line was supposed to be 行不言之學 -- “learn without talking"

Edited October 20, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dust]

Hi HE;)

 

this is an excellent note. Yes it is an euphemism, much in the same vein as a military expedition to vanquish a neigbouring tribe, to sacrifice the prisoners was called 'pacifying' in those times.

 

I would just add that 敗failure is a derivative sense. its original meaning was specifically 'to defeat' or 'a defeat'

 

"敲破尊鼎，损毁家当"

 

The very original meaning, if we want to use that, was to break a ritual Ding (or household ornament generally).

So, perhaps a sense of extreme misfortune? Like breaking a mirror?

 

Of course, in Sun Tzu (for example) it does indeed refer to "defeat" in war, as opposed to 腾 victory

 

Which is why it is hard to say "Definitely no" to your theory....

 

 

Hmmm..i dont know, did they want to return to their nature? Have they been asked what they want? Is their nature to be used and discarded as that of the straw dogs? If yes then they have not fail for sure.

 

Not about what they want. About what's best.

 

Edited October 20, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Taoist Texts]

"敲破尊鼎，损毁家当"

 

The very original meaning, if we want to use that, was to break a ritual Ding (or household ornament generally).

So, perhaps a sense of extreme misfortune? Like breaking a mirror?

 

4. 敗道 [bai4dao4], adj., one who fails in discipline to become Taoist immortal.

 

 

yes thats an extreme misfortune, that

 

 

 

Not about what they want. About what's best.

John F. Kennedy — 'Victory has a hundred fathers and defeat is an orphan.[News conference, April 21 1961]'

 

 

seems 'best ' is an orphan too;). best for whom?

Edited October 20, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

 

• seems 'best ' is an orphan too;). best for whom?

An orphan must learn to stand alone.

[dust]

4. 敗道 [bai4dao4], adj., one who fails in discipline to become Taoist immortal.

 

 

 

yes thats an extreme misfortune, that

 

ha!

 

 

 

 

John F. Kennedy — 'Victory has a hundred fathers and defeat is an orphan.[News conference, April 21 1961]'

 

 

seems 'best ' is an orphan too;). best for whom?

 

I suppose "best", in the Taoist sense, might mean most in line with the Way? Best for everything.

 

Life / the ten thousand things / men.... they might not want to return to a certain way of living, but it's precisely because of that desire to do things (and fail, and mess things up, and be unhappy because of it) that they need to be guided (not forced) back into a simpler way of life.

Edited October 20, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dust]

The next bit...

 

 

亓安也易困也 Something at peace is easy to control,

亓未垗也易悔也 Something still growing is easy to develop,

亓毳也易畔也 Something weak is easy to break down,

亓幾也易踐也 Something lesser is easy to scatter;

為之於亓亡又也 Act when something doesn’t exist yet,

紿之於亓未亂 Control it before it turns to disorder;

合抱之木生於毫末 A great tree grows from a tiny shoot,

九成之臺乍於羸土 A nine-storey tower is made from dust,

百千之高怡於足下 A momentous task starts from where one stands

 

 

Had to guess at a few characters in the last 3 lines, based on the MWD mostly, as there are a couple of bits missing. Very annoying. So very annoying.

 

Clearly saying "Deal with problems before they become problems", it seems to be intimating the ruling of a kingdom -- crush foes before they realize they're your foes.

 

Though it talks of actually doing and controlling and interfering with things, it seems to be suggesting how to manage affairs so that wu wei / non-interference is possible?

Edited November 4, 2014 by dustybeijing

[ChiDragon]

行不言之教（學） And teaches (learns) without talking,

行不言之教:

Use the silent teaching(method).

 

行不言之學:

Use the things from silent learning.

 

 

教不教: (Are you) going to teach or not?

學不學: (Are you) going to learn or not?

Edited November 4, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Nice enough translation. The concepts still stand.

 

Though it talks of actually doing and controlling and interfering with things, it seems to be suggesting how to manage affairs so that wu wei / non-interference is possible?

And this goes back to the suggestion that a majority of the TTC was written for the rulers and would-be rulers of peoples.

[dawei]

亓安也易困也 Something at peace is easy to control,

亓未垗也易悔也 Something still growing is easy to develop,

亓毳也易畔也 Something weak is easy to break down,

亓幾也易踐也 Something lesser is easy to scatter;

為之於亓亡又也 Act when something doesn’t exist yet,

紿之於亓未亂 Control it before it turns to disorder;

合抱之木生於毫末 A great tree grows from a tiny shoot,

九成之臺乍於羸土 A nine-storey tower is made from dust,

百千之高怡於足下 A momentous task starts from where one stands

 

 

Had to guess at a few characters in the last 3 lines, based on the MWD mostly, as there are a couple of bits missing. Very annoying. So very annoying.

 

Here is the BeiDa Text:

其安易持也，

其未兆易謀也，

其脆易判也，

其微易散也。

為之其無有也，

治之其未亂也。

合抱之木作於豪（毫）末

九成之臺作於絫土

百仞之高始於足下

[dust]

Cool. If a 仞 is 8 feet, literally

 

"(An) eight hundred foot (height/building) starts under the feet"

 

Which is what Henricks has

But why 2 height/building examples? 臺 and 高

 

This is one instance where I prefer the received version to the GD. 千里之行 A journey of a thousand li....