How much do we undersatnd the Microcosmic Orbit...?

[Kali Yuga]

Most things about the microcosmic orbit that I've ever read are bullsh$t in my opinion. Especially that stuff from Mantak Chia etc, "using you intention to move energy around the MCO" etc. At first when I did not have any experience I believed all the stuff Chia had to offer. Imagining I had energy etc and then circulating it around the spine and points i thought the stuff was real. But when I experienced my own awakening of the MCO it was completely against all of that stuff that I had ever read and this made me have disdain for all these things I had read that had no reflection on to what was happening to me.

 

When I started building It was then I realized to try to attempt to do MCO is a joke. There is no such thing as "using intention to move the energy around at will" or all that BS about "circling the energy 36 times this and and 72 timed that way" to lock it in dantien. Thats a joke.

 

When you do MCO, you first build very hot yang energy in the dantien until the dantien does not take it anymore. It is then that your energy will spill down through this channel to your tail bone, where it will slowly rewire your nervous system and remove blockage, ascending up to your crown and then back down the front. Some people are very good at this initial step of generating energy at dantien, and some take very long. The energy first becomes hot, but then after a bit of practice you can get it to unbelievably hot. I happened to be one of the quicker fellows when I learned of other people similar experiences. This is when I learned that when you have energy, you will really effing know it. You will not question this. Your energy pops out and makes itself noticeable any time of the day even without your conscious intention to feel it or move it.

 

You can't do the MCO without actually having the energy to move around first. There is nothing that you can even move or lock if you haven't spent considerable time in meditation building up energy that will actually circulate around these points.In my experience there is not even the "technique of MCO" or even the intention. If you just build up that energy to the point where it is undeniably tangible and not some cerebral construct that you think is there but actually isn't, the MCO takes care of you, you do not take care of it. To actually finish MCO and clear through all blockages? LOL, will probably take you years. Very much depending on the person.

 

Another thing about the MCO BS is that you can just use your intention to do the whole thing. The energy goes where it goes and does what it does. You will ALWAYS have a lot of blockages around both your main channels where your energy will get stuck. The energy will work on that until it can dissolve it or shoot through it. It can take months or longer to break through a single blockage, and the buildup of energy can be painful until you get done with it. The thing I've never seen written about the MCO is that there will always undeniably be blockages in your channels that your energy will have to be clear before it can proceed. Theres no such thing as finishing the whole thing in a day.It can take a LONG time to clear those blockages and the energy pooling and working at clearing that up does not always bring a pleasant sensation.

 

My understanding of the MCO does not come from any sort of book or intellectual cerebral conjecture. It comes from personal experience. Forget what you "know" about the MCO. Just practice and forget all of this book crap. After seeing my own personal experiences and comparing them with books I've read I conclude that I have been thoroughly had - a deception if you will. Nothing I've read in the books described this process accurately and to think we pay money for this stuff. Just goes to show if you don't know anything about what you're getting into you can be quite easily led off on a trail along with your money. I suggest if you guys actually want to make this a worthwhile thread you want to have people here comment with their own personal experiences, and not just about "what we know" when in fact to not experience is to not know.

 

Fill your dam (dantien) with water (chi) and it will soon overflow into the trenches built for it (main channels). You can't do any of this if you dont even have enough water to begin with. To attempt MCO before even filling dantien is a joke - its like putting the carriage in front of the horse. No amount of prodding or visualization will make things happen if you have no juice.

[VCraigP]

Thank you for your honest opinion. The people in this forum, some said breathing has nothing to do or may have something to do with Chi Kung; and some said something otherwise about abdominal breathing. There are no consistency here. Who do you suggest should be followed...???

 

At least, I have some consistency on my part. My story was always consistent and does not change each time when I tell it. Sorry to say, I always stuck with the same old story.

 

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.

 

Ralph Waldo Emerson

 

PS - Your Weiqi for deflecting constructive criticism is well developed sir!

[ChiDragon]

Kali Yuga...

Well said.

 

What the hell do we know but just talk it out with our own experiences. Then let somebody else comes along to deny it....

Edited August 29, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Kali Yuga...

Well said.

 

What the hell do we know but just talk it out with our own experiences. Then let somebody else comes along to deny it....

but you have never shared your personal experience with MCO; only run off to check some native sources.

 

Explain from beginning to end how you do the MCO... personally speaking. If there is not personal experience, just say it.

 

What Kali shares is fairly common explanation in the sense that one needs the energy to do the MCO. But there is no explanation as to what 'path' or what breathing is done in that experience.

 

In other words, until a person shares exactly how they do (did) the MCO, you cannot really respond. But that explanation given is not the same as yours (deep breathing means the MCO is open). You should realize you can learn from the post.

 

As to what Kali shares about blockages is true... that is why the ancients said to do '3000' breaths and why this got rounded to 100 days. Did you ever mention this or understand this? And did you know why RAB is more effective at this?

 

What you appear to know about the MCO is nothing but diagrams and native sources. You are always welcome to share your extensive EXPERIENCE in PERSONAL MCO practice at any time...

Edited August 30, 2011 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

I guess you didn't understand what I was saying............

 

This is the way I understood it and discredited because it was not experience but from the books. You are implying that one cannot digest what he/her had read from reading.

 

FYI...After all this time, what I was trying to say is: when one had done abdominal breathing and send Chi to the Dan Tian was said to be that the channel has been opened and he has completed one MCO-1 cycle already. Thus I had done many NAB in my practice in my life, understood...???

[dawei]

You said to the effect: "deep breath into dan tian is the MCO". That is a precursor to the MCO, as Kali points out to build up the energy. This really means nothing until you provide details of the 'micro cosmic orbit' itself ; understood?

 

I already told you in the first response to this thread: You are describing the Fire Cycle using NAB.. This is the most basic way, using Buddha Breath... which some have dubbed as "abdominal breathing" or NAB. You are not reading what others are saying.

 

You know the fire path with NAB... Nobody disputes that as a valid and fundamental method. BUT; that is NOT THE ONLY MCO path and breathing method.

 

You have yet to share anything of interest concerning the MCO. You talk of baby food when most here are practicing many levels beyond that basic method. When anyone tries to share it, you pass it off as not your understanding. That is fine. Nobody is saying your method is not true. But if you try to pass it off as the ONLY truth, then your missing what is being said: There are many methods and teachings, not only the one basic one.

[Stigweard]

You said to the effect: "deep breath into dan tian is the MCO". That is a precursor to the MCO, as Kali points out to build up the energy. This really means nothing until you provide details of the 'micro cosmic orbit' itself ; understood?

 

I already told you in the first response to this thread: You are describing the Fire Cycle using NAB.. This is the most basic way, using Buddha Breath... which some have dubbed as "abdominal breathing" or NAB. You are not reading what others are saying.

 

You know the fire path with NAB... Nobody disputes that as a valid and fundamental method. BUT; that is NOT THE ONLY MCO path and breathing method.

 

You have yet to share anything of interest concerning the MCO. You talk of baby food when most here are practicing many levels beyond that basic method. When anyone tries to share it, you pass it off as not your understanding. That is fine. Nobody is saying your method is not true. But if you try to pass it off as the ONLY truth, then your missing what is being said: There are many methods and teachings, not only the one basic one.

 

I am hearing you Dawei

[ChiDragon]

You said to the effect: "deep breath into dan tian is the MCO". That is a precursor to the MCO, as Kali points out to build up the energy. This really means nothing until you provide details of the 'micro cosmic orbit' itself ; understood?

 

I already told you in the first response to this thread: You are describing the Fire Cycle using NAB.. This is the most basic way, using Buddha Breath... which some have dubbed as "abdominal breathing" or NAB. You are not reading what others are saying.

 

You know the fire path with NAB... Nobody disputes that as a valid and fundamental method. BUT; that is NOT THE ONLY MCO path and breathing method.

 

You have yet to share anything of interest concerning the MCO. You talk of baby food when most here are practicing many levels beyond that basic method. When anyone tries to share it, you pass it off as not your understanding. That is fine. Nobody is saying your method is not true. But if you try to pass it off as the ONLY truth, then your missing what is being said: There are many methods and teachings, not only the one basic one.

 

You said to the effect: "deep breath into dan tian is the MCO".

That was exactly what I wanted to tell you. It was because that was Taoist Talk. That was the way Taoists had believed and expressed differently than others. Please don't let the Taoist name MCO fool you. You only knew half of the story.

 

Breathing is breathing, putting an adjective in front of it is still breathing. Please don't throw in those fancy names. Everybody uses "Abdominal breathing" besides the Buddhist Monks. That was the reason why I ignored you in the first place. I don't know who threw in the RAB for MCO.

Edited August 30, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

In MQ... your in a serious defensive mechanism... it is rational and intellectual... It has already be explained here:

 

PS - Your Weiqi for deflecting constructive criticism is well developed sir!

 

You said it all with "I DON'T KNOW..." That is case closed. Thanks.

[starhawk]

Thanks everyone. I have stopped commenting on Tao Bums to avoid arguments, etc, but this thread seems useful, and can help intermediate practitioners as well.

 

Ok, Kali Yoga in my "opinion" you are partially right. But there are methods to do MCO without first completely filling the dan tien. To use an analogy of driving a car, you might go to the petrol station right before you start driving Perhaps your analogy should be instead that horse is often not strong enough to carry the carriage, but you can feed the horse a carrot or two before you start. Maybe a lump of sugar.

 

Ok, so just to change topic, I wish to ask Dawei. Thank you for sharing your expertise. I know what you mean of the Fire Cycle. I don't know names but I know other methods. I know of a method with sound. I also know how to collect and rotate before MCO. If other methods you know are sharable, can you publicly explain or PM me? Thank you!

[dawei]

Thanks everyone. I have stopped commenting on Tao Bums to avoid arguments, etc, but this thread seems useful, and can help intermediate practitioners as well.

 

Ok, Kali Yoga in my "opinion" you are partially right. But there are methods to do MCO without first completely filling the dan tien. To use an analogy of driving a car, you might go to the petrol station right before you start driving Perhaps your analogy should be instead that horse is often not strong enough to carry the carriage, but you can feed the horse a carrot or two before you start. Maybe a lump of sugar.

 

Ok, so just to change topic, I wish to ask Dawei. Thank you for sharing your expertise. I know what you mean of the Fire Cycle. I don't know names but I know other methods. I know of a method with sound. I also know how to collect and rotate before MCO. If other methods you know are sharable, can you publicly explain or PM me? Thank you!

I mentioned in another thread that I have 'turned the Qi' over in rotation (some call it Turbine or Beating and Drumming, etc), in the NAB; then do the MCO in RAB. This is a back to back reversal of breathing. This is just ONE specific teaching. It is one of many, many, many... which was the point trying to be made here.

 

It is ok to define one MCO method as NAB and breathing into the Dan Tian, as the OP did. I would guess that 99% of those here would say they agree this is a basic practice... ergo, there is nothing new presented... but the minute someone suggests it is THE ONE AND ONLY practice is a individual choice. There are many practices; just as their are many colors to our skin. Either accept the diversity or treat everyone else as having some problem.

 

As a final note, I do agree with your point that there are methods to do MCO without first completely filling the dan tien. Just because one person says it cannot be done only means THEY cannot do it. IT does not mean IT CANNOT BE DONE... There is so much that can be done once you allow and invite it. Many, Many variations exist.

[Kali Yuga]

You said to the effect: "deep breath into dan tian is the MCO". That is a precursor to the MCO, as Kali points out to build up the energy. This really means nothing until you provide details of the 'micro cosmic orbit' itself ; understood?

 

I already told you in the first response to this thread: You are describing the Fire Cycle using NAB.. This is the most basic way, using Buddha Breath... which some have dubbed as "abdominal breathing" or NAB. You are not reading what others are saying.

 

You know the fire path with NAB... Nobody disputes that as a valid and fundamental method. BUT; that is NOT THE ONLY MCO path and breathing method.

 

You have yet to share anything of interest concerning the MCO. You talk of baby food when most here are practicing many levels beyond that basic method. When anyone tries to share it, you pass it off as not your understanding. That is fine. Nobody is saying your method is not true. But if you try to pass it off as the ONLY truth, then your missing what is being said: There are many methods and teachings, not only the one basic one.

 

I forgot to mention I was practicing reverse abdominal breathing as technique. In my own experience its a more difficult technique but nevertheless still rewarding. My teacher said that it could be achieved either way through either reverse or normal abdominal breathing so yes there should be many ways in which someone could go about it. I'm just speaking about my experience though, because sometimes talking can do more harm than good. There are so many names to everything and like "fire path", "wind technique" etc.. I find the names confusing but I find that its easy to get when one gets down to the mechanics of the practice.

 

Anyway, you say you've done "turbine" or what you call it. Is this anything similar to what J.J. Semple calls his "backward flowing method" of a hundred days, and "reversing the flow of the chi?"

 

I also have to mention something in slight disagreement with the OP, when he states that to just breathe abdominally. I have trained to breathe deep abdominally so that every breath I take automatically creates belly movement but not chest movement. Does this mean that every breathe I take creates more chi in the dantien? Not really.

 

I have to stress that there is a certain type of consciousness one must achieve before even thinking about gaining proper energy into the dantien. I've met a lot of folks who were trying to do the same technique I did but had no success even with the deep breathing. They all seemed to be the overly rational type who loved to talk and read books, and I think that was part of the reason why they didnt get far with the particular technique I was using - because they preferred mental activity to absence of it. There's a certain state of consciousness in my experience that one has to get to before the technique can ever be called effective. You can't exactly describe it.. and it is much more subtle than just abdominal breathing.

 

Also response to starhawk : I have to agree with you to a certain extent but I have to mention that there is no hard definition to what constitutes a "full dantien" as well. For example, my dantien and your dantien should be relatively well developed and by standards of several schools as a "full dantien" , but it seems that even thats really is a relational thing and there are many kinds of a "full dantien". After reading "Magus of Java", and seeing "Ring of Fire", it seems that even what is considered as a "full dantien" by some schools is not necessarily the same considering, that in Chang's school what is a "full dantien" is then compressed making it even "more full" - a ball of tangibly hard chi moveable at will. And if what is considered as a "full dantien" is something ubiquitous, then naturally all masters would have Chang's power. But as far as I know there are less than a hand full open to the public eye.

 

It is just my experience that at a certain point of having enough chi in the dantien that it naturally spills over into the orbit. It doesn't necessarily mean that it is "full" because the definition of full is debatable in context of different schools, but I guess I'm trying to say that after a certain period, the chi will flow on its own regardless of what you're trying to do with it, if you gather enough. I found it was the most overt and most tangible experience I've had and cannot honestly comment on other methods being I have not experienced other methods of opening MCO.

 

Anyway seeing that your method is different, it would be interesting to see what yours was if you choose to share it, and how it differed from mine.

[dawei]

I forgot to mention I was practicing reverse abdominal breathing as technique. In my own experience its a more difficult technique but nevertheless still rewarding. My teacher said that it could be achieved either way through either reverse or normal abdominal breathing so yes there should be many ways in which someone could go about it. I'm just speaking about my experience though, because sometimes talking can do more harm than good. There are so many names to everything and like "fire path", "wind technique" etc.. I find the names confusing but I find that its easy to get when one gets down to the mechanics of the practice.

Thanks for sharing your experience. It is important to hear that many know of NAB and RAB and are taught properly when to use them. I agree that the names are not as important as getting down the mechanics and that is where a good teacher/master is essential to learn under, not just google and books

 

Anyway, you say you've done "turbine" or what you call it. Is this anything similar to what J.J. Semple calls his "backward flowing method" of a hundred days, and "reversing the flow of the chi?"

I am not a follower or expert on his technique which is drawn from Tibetan practices and The Secret of the Golden Flower. His BFM is a method to activate Kundalini but is not anything to do with MCO; it is closer to the turbine flow in terms of the 'direction' of flow; meaning one is not reversing a breathing practice but at some point the perceived direction of the turbine flow reverses. There are three general steps:

1. Diaphragmatic Deep Breathing (gets it started and done until you reach #2)

2. Reach the point of breathing stillness (breathing without any awareness of it)

3. Backward Flowing Method (you use your mind to reverse the flow direction)

 

In Waysun Liao's Tai Chi Classics he has diagrams of the turbine flow forwards and backwards but it is tied more to the MCO or circulating practice.

 

I also have to mention something in slight disagreement with the OP, when he states that to just breathe abdominally. I have trained to breathe deep abdominally so that every breath I take automatically creates belly movement but not chest movement. Does this mean that every breathe I take creates more chi in the dantien? Not really.

 

I have to stress that there is a certain type of consciousness one must achieve before even thinking about gaining proper energy into the dantien. I've met a lot of folks who were trying to do the same technique I did but had no success even with the deep breathing. They all seemed to be the overly rational type who loved to talk and read books, and I think that was part of the reason why they didnt get far with the particular technique I was using - because they preferred mental activity to absence of it. There's a certain state of consciousness in my experience that one has to get to before the technique can ever be called effective. You can't exactly describe it.. and it is much more subtle than just abdominal breathing.

I agree. I found the same thing in regards to whether my huiyin was really moving or not despite my deep breathing; I found it was not... it is more than just thinking of it as a breathing practice or technique.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Z3N]

I have noticed that there is alot of conceptual thought going on. Stick with the natural and applyed no-mind. This will able one to freely discover the natural cycle on it own accord. To much conpectual thought miss guides the natural course of the process. And hinders ones own accomplishments. Let it be a natural discovery and guide with the sense of intent from the experience that is attained through practice. Master this and then one can apply the real knowledge to ones advancement.

[ChiDragon]

 

 

P.S ChiDragon

NBM is not MCO as NBM is foundation to be able to charge the abdomen, which you can not charge when you have chest breathing, well you can try charge the chest...

It is also possible to have NBM all the life, but the Qi not "touch the lower Dantien" (Thx KaliYuga). You then run a engine but not connect to the wheels to move.

 

The Goal is to "have enough energy" for MCO.

 

Yes, that is correct. However, if we're trying not to assume that the other doesn't know what he was talking about. It would be wise and try to share, with a common language, on common ground.

 

"NBM is foundation to be able to charge the abdomen, which you can not charge when you have chest breathing, well you can try charge the chest... "

Please don't forget that one must pass the chest breathing, by continuous practice, before reach the NBM, assuming NBM is Normal Abdominal Breathing.

 

How do you justify this statement...???

"It is also possible to have NBM all the life, but the Qi not "touch the lower Dantien" (Thx KaliYuga)."

Edited September 1, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[konchog uma]

and one of great places are the Zoo and the botanical garden, place with great varients of life forms, they are like medicine.

 

oh very yes!

 

i might add parks, especially with wooded trails, and woods in general, for city dwellers.

 

all those places make my energy feel expansive and connected. boxes made of bricks make it feel constricted and distant.

 

i digress

[ChiDragon]

oh very yes!

 

i might add parks, especially with wooded trails, and woods in general, for city dwellers.

 

all those places make my energy feel expansive and connected.

 

Alas...!!!

 

All these places are abundant of oxygen....

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[ChiDragon]

Alas...!!!

 

Dr.Yan Xin wrote "Yan Xin - Secrets & Benefits of Internal Qigong Cultivation" that Qigong practioner do not really need that much oxygen.

 

Yes, some Chi Kung masters claimed after a prolong practice of Chi Kung, the practitioner doesn't even need to eat nor to breathe. Who should we believe...???

 

 

BTW Why Taoists always choose to meditate in places like mountains, around the greenery and close to Nature...??? Don't you think it has something to do with fresh air....??? They claim that they don't much oxygen but they are doing deep breathing without realizing the significance of oxygen.

 

We are breathing the Chi and oxygen from the air into the body, and putting so much emphasis on the Chi and ignoring the oxygen completely. Do you think that was wise...???

[dawei]

Yes, some Chi Kung masters claimed after a prolong practice of Chi Kung, the practitioner doesn't even need to eat nor to breathe. Who should we believe...???

I think the question to ask is not 'should we believe' but, why can some actually do it? Instead of constant skepticism one should be inquisitive to know why such practices can be accomplished. If you look at some zany practices from Tibetan, it is not about believing it but why does it actually work (and why can we seem to do it).

 

When one says "this does not work", it tends to really means they cannot do it, not that the practice itself does not work.

 

 

We are breathing the Chi and oxygen from the air into the body, and putting so much emphasis on the Chi and ignoring the oxygen completely. Do you think that was wise...???

I think focusing on Qi is good. Oxygen is only a part of the picture; if one focuses on Qi they tend to get the bigger picture.

[ChiDragon]

I think focusing on Qi is good. Oxygen is only a part of the picture; if one focuses on Qi they tend to get the bigger picture.

 

Oh...Yes...!!!

 

One can claim anything one likes or wants without any justification.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Mokona]

I respectfully request more personal experience be shared in this thread. I would be interested if Kali Yuga's method is the only method that has been used by the people of the forum that has "worked" beyond doubt.