How much do we undersatnd the Microcosmic Orbit...?

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[doc benway]

I respectfully request more personal experience be shared in this thread. I would be interested if Kali Yuga's method is the only method that has been used by the people of the forum that has "worked" beyond doubt.

The method I practice is very different from that described by Kali Yuga. I understand what he is describing and do not doubt the experiences and attainment he has shared. The method I've been taught is simply a different approach and is very effective. I disagree with his statement: "There is no such thing as 'using intention to move the energy around at will.'" This is a foundation practice in many Daoist traditions, although the way it is worded here is not quite accurate in describing what one is "doing." Developing skill in this is why Daoist meditation is so valuable to developing advanced skills in Tai Ji Quan. Essentially, this is what makes Tai Ji Quan 'internal.' I've never read any of Mantak Chia's books so I can't comment on his methods, nor have I learned any Daoist methods from a book, just my Shifu.

 

The MCO is the first, and most basic, exercise in our system. Being the most basic does not mean that it is easy, trivial, or abandoned once "mastered." Like in anything else, there is always room for deeper understanding and improvement. We come back to it throughout our course of training and continually refine it.

 

Unlike some of the other posts in this thread, my practice of the MCO is independent of the breath for the most part. It is an exercise of the Yi, mind of intent, and does not depend on any particular pattern of breathing. The breath breathes itself when working with the Yi to convert Jing to Qi. Once the MCO is mastered, more challenging exercises are given to the student.

 

If you have more specific questions, you are welcome to PM me.

[Kali Yuga]

The method I practice is very different from that described by Kali Yuga. I understand what he is describing and do not doubt the experiences and attainment he has shared. The method I've been taught is simply a different approach and is very effective. I disagree with his statement: "There is no such thing as 'using intention to move the energy around at will.'" This is a foundation practice in many Daoist traditions, although the way it is worded here is not quite accurate in describing what one is "doing." Developing skill in this is why Daoist meditation is so valuable to developing advanced skills in Tai Ji Quan. Essentially, this is what makes Tai Ji Quan 'internal.' I've never read any of Mantak Chia's books so I can't comment on his methods, nor have I learned any Daoist methods from a book, just my Shifu.

 

The MCO is the first, and most basic, exercise in our system. Being the most basic does not mean that it is easy, trivial, or abandoned once "mastered." Like in anything else, there is always room for deeper understanding and improvement. We come back to it throughout our course of training and continually refine it.

 

Unlike some of the other posts in this thread, my practice of the MCO is independent of the breath for the most part. It is an exercise of the Yi, mind of intent, and does not depend on any particular pattern of breathing. The breath breathes itself when working with the Yi to convert Jing to Qi. Once the MCO is mastered, more challenging exercises are given to the student.

 

If you have more specific questions, you are welcome to PM me.

 

Well what I was trying to communicate here (sometimes it's not easy conveying what you mean to say through words), is that trying to move energy to perform the MCO, when you don't even have energy, is a joke. This is the deception- that it's just a technique that you "practice" and do the "full orbit" just by sitting down and trying to do the whole orbit all at once. Sure you can use your mind and just imagine that the energy is moving. The mind can fool itself into noticing things that are not even there. But this doesn't mean that what a person is "feeling" is the real deal, nor does it mean that the person is doing the real thing.

 

To me the litmus test of energy, is that one must feel it by itself making it be felt, rather than working at an effort "trying" to feel or manifest that energy. In short if you have the energy, the energy will make itself be felt and known at times where you are not doing your particular practice, when you are not thinking about it. It makes its presence known without any effort on a person's effort. It is not something that is always "forced".

 

I think that we're talking about very different things here because you're talking about taijiquan, and my own method that is being practiced is more of the sitting neidan type, and no doubt the energy that I'm talking about is not the same as yours. I've practiced doing standing forms as well for years before doing what I'm talking about here, and so I believe I get what you're talking about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways the fundamental characteristics of my practice are that first, the breath is the absolute foundation. Without proper breathing you cannot hope to gain the particular energy that I'm speaking of. It is not a mental construct. The second characteristic of what I'm terming the microcosmic orbit is that it takes a long time to complete. Months at least, often longer than a year. This is because there are so many blockages within the pathways of the energy, and to even think to have that energy move around freely, it first needs to be unobstructed. To do the orbit is not doing it, it is also gaining that particular energy (which in itself could take months to years based on the skill of someone's meditation) and rewiring the nervous system to allow free flow of said energy. If you don't immediately bump into a blockage while practicing the technique then it's not what I am talking about. Blockages manifest when a high degree of energy bumps into it - it is much more than the body is capable of, or used to, at the moment.

 

I get what you mean by using the yi to move chi, but in my experience the yi is not the end-all of everything. It's like using your will and intention to move a circular block into a smaller square mold. If the shape of the mold does not change then good luck getting the block through. Blockages can be painful, and can last for quite awhile.

 

There is a lot of stuff out there that people have said to be the MCO, but at least you guys know something about my practice and why it is different from all that junk you get from books.

 

In short there's no such thing, at least that I'm aware of, as "doing" the microcosmic orbit, because its far from being that simple. It's not something to be taken lightly at all, and takes a long time, concentrated effort, and other things as well. It isn't what I'd call a basic technique, and you only go as fast as the effort you put in, as well the readiness of your own vessel to handle that energy.

[Informer]

Well what I was trying to communicate here (sometimes it's not easy conveying what you mean to say through words), is that trying to move energy to perform the MCO, when you don't even have energy, is a joke. This is the deception- that it's just a technique that you "practice" and do the "full orbit" just by sitting down and trying to do the whole orbit all at once. Sure you can use your mind and just imagine that the energy is moving. The mind can fool itself into noticing things that are not even there. But this doesn't mean that what a person is "feeling" is the real deal, nor does it mean that the person is doing the real thing.

 

To me the litmus test of energy, is that one must feel it by itself making it be felt, rather than working at an effort "trying" to feel or manifest that energy. In short if you have the energy, the energy will make itself be felt and known at times where you are not doing your particular practice, when you are not thinking about it. It makes its presence known without any effort on a person's effort. It is not something that is always "forced".

 

I think that we're talking about very different things here because you're talking about taijiquan, and my own method that is being practiced is more of the sitting neidan type, and no doubt the energy that I'm talking about is not the same as yours. I've practiced doing standing forms as well for years before doing what I'm talking about here, and so I believe I get what you're talking about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways the fundamental characteristics of my practice are that first, the breath is the absolute foundation. Without proper breathing you cannot hope to gain the particular energy that I'm speaking of. It is not a mental construct. The second characteristic of what I'm terming the microcosmic orbit is that it takes a long time to complete. Months at least, often longer than a year. This is because there are so many blockages within the pathways of the energy, and to even think to have that energy move around freely, it first needs to be unobstructed. To do the orbit is not doing it, it is also gaining that particular energy (which in itself could take months to years based on the skill of someone's meditation) and rewiring the nervous system to allow free flow of said energy. If you don't immediately bump into a blockage while practicing the technique then it's not what I am talking about. Blockages manifest when a high degree of energy bumps into it - it is much more than the body is capable of, or used to, at the moment.

 

I get what you mean by using the yi to move chi, but in my experience the yi is not the end-all of everything. It's like using your will and intention to move a circular block into a smaller square mold. If the shape of the mold does not change then good luck getting the block through. Blockages can be painful, and can last for quite awhile.

 

There is a lot of stuff out there that people have said to be the MCO, but at least you guys know something about my practice and why it is different from all that junk you get from books.

 

In short there's no such thing, at least that I'm aware of, as "doing" the microcosmic orbit, because its far from being that simple. It's not something to be taken lightly at all, and takes a long time, concentrated effort, and other things as well. It isn't what I'd call a basic technique, and you only go as fast as the effort you put in, as well the readiness of your own vessel to handle that energy.

 

Have you gone to macro Kali Yuga?

 

I think I might know what Macro-Cosmic Orbit is pointing at, which is energy from the crown that comes in intense waves throughout the entire body. I also think that girls have an easier times doing this than the microcosmic orbit.

 

What do you think?

Edited September 5, 2011 by Informer

[doc benway]

Well what I was trying to communicate here (sometimes it's not easy conveying what you mean to say through words), is that trying to move energy to perform the MCO, when you don't even have energy, is a joke. This is the deception- that it's just a technique that you "practice" and do the "full orbit" just by sitting down and trying to do the whole orbit all at once. Sure you can use your mind and just imagine that the energy is moving. The mind can fool itself into noticing things that are not even there. But this doesn't mean that what a person is "feeling" is the real deal, nor does it mean that the person is doing the real thing.

You have to start somewhere - Waysun Liao does a nice job of addressing this.

I hear you but I disagree. Using the mind is a very valuable tool in working with and developing the experience of Qi.

Developing the Yi is never a joke. It's a painstaking and slow process and most abandon it way before they see meaningful results.

You are doing it in your way, me in mine, others in there's.

 

The energy is always already there - we simply are unaware of it, unconnected to it.

Just like we're unaware of how our thyroid is functioning, our digestion and heartbeat (usually), our blood flow, pancreas, liver, and just about everything else about our bodies.

We all have energy, otherwise we would be dead. Certainly some have more, some less.

It changes with time, health (physical, psychological, emotional, spiritual), and many things beyond my understanding.

That's my experience.

None of us can "prove" we are doing the real thing but, like you, I think we generally know it when we feel it.

Many are fooled by charlatans, books, themselves, but I also think judicious use of the imagination can be a helpful tool in the beginning.

 

 

 

To me the litmus test of energy, is that one must feel it by itself making it be felt, rather than working at an effort "trying" to feel or manifest that energy. In short if you have the energy, the energy will make itself be felt and known at times where you are not doing your particular practice, when you are not thinking about it. It makes its presence known without any effort on a person's effort. It is not something that is always "forced".

It is never forced, absolutely. That's not effective at all. It is more a matter of becoming increasingly more sensitive. Opening up and giving oneself over. As the mind becomes tranquil, we come more in touch with the experience of the energetic facet of our existence and it comes to play an increasingly greater role in our lives.

 

Did you feel the energy day one at every moment? Didn't you need to do some work to reach that attainment? How did you get there? There are different ways. You were developing the Yi - the intention, and the awareness in your own way. Not an easy task. And there are other techniques and methods that can take us there and some take the Yi even further, much further. Yi is used in our system to convert Jing > Qi > Shen and beyond (and maybe you've gone or will go even further than the Daoist methods can go - I don't know and it really doesn't matter). All of this is words, labels. Are the realities we are approaching really different? I don't think so.

 

I think that we're talking about very different things here because you're talking about taijiquan, and my own method that is being practiced is more of the sitting neidan type, and no doubt the energy that I'm talking about is not the same as yours. I've practiced doing standing forms as well for years before doing what I'm talking about here, and so I believe I get what you're talking about.

I don't think we're talking about different things. We're talking about life, breathing, meditation, the cultivation of our energetic and spiritual awareness, aren't we? Are there different life energies? I don't think so, just different labels we put on the same thing.

 

I recognize what you are describing and I think there are different paths to similar experience. I am also talking about and practicing Nei Dan, not just Tai Ji Quan. Our system includes some standing methods but the vast majority of the practice is sitting (and some lying down). My school of practice is from western China and is influenced by Tibetan practices. This is completely independent of Tai Ji Quan but you will generally find the two combined by credible Tai Ji Quan masters. You can only take Tai Ji Quan so far without the Nei Gong. The two practices are beautifully complimentary which is why I mentioned it and why Tai Ji Quan is closely associated with (perhaps why it was developed by) the Daoists.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways the fundamental characteristics of my practice are that first, the breath is the absolute foundation. Without proper breathing you cannot hope to gain the particular energy that I'm speaking of. It is not a mental construct. The second characteristic of what I'm terming the microcosmic orbit is that it takes a long time to complete. Months at least, often longer than a year. This is because there are so many blockages within the pathways of the energy, and to even think to have that energy move around freely, it first needs to be unobstructed. To do the orbit is not doing it, it is also gaining that particular energy (which in itself could take months to years based on the skill of someone's meditation) and rewiring the nervous system to allow free flow of said energy. If you don't immediately bump into a blockage while practicing the technique then it's not what I am talking about. Blockages manifest when a high degree of energy bumps into it - it is much more than the body is capable of, or used to, at the moment.

 

I get what you mean by using the yi to move chi, but in my experience the yi is not the end-all of everything. It's like using your will and intention to move a circular block into a smaller square mold. If the shape of the mold does not change then good luck getting the block through. Blockages can be painful, and can last for quite awhile.

 

There is a lot of stuff out there that people have said to be the MCO, but at least you guys know something about my practice and why it is different from all that junk you get from books.

 

In short there's no such thing, at least that I'm aware of, as "doing" the microcosmic orbit, because its far from being that simple. It's not something to be taken lightly at all, and takes a long time, concentrated effort, and other things as well. It isn't what I'd call a basic technique, and you only go as fast as the effort you put in, as well the readiness of your own vessel to handle that energy.

Breath is always there. You may follow a path that manipulates it in specific patterns, others don't, it is there and working nonetheless. Is breathing in a specific pattern the only way to develop energetic awareness? Not in my experience. I agree that 'refining and developing' (I also agree that words are not very accurate here) the MCO take a VERY long time. I'm still working on it after 8 years (along with several other things). The blockages can be a bitch! And there are refinements that I won't go into here that are quite challenging and valuable.

 

As far as the Yi goes, all I can say is that it can be developed in ways that most of us cannot begin to imagine. Is it the end-all of everything? I don't know. I've only been working with it for about 8 years. It is a very useful and powerful tool. Who knows it's ultimate potential? I've seen it do some amazing things!

 

I agree, it is not at all simple and yet it is very simple at the same time. I don't take it lightly at all. I take it very seriously, and yet there comes a time when you realize that it's always already there so what is it that we need to do and who is there to take this seriously? It is the first and most basic technique in our system and I'm still working on it after nearly a decade, along with other, more challenging practices. My practice of the MCO is also a lot different from what I've seen in books.

 

When it comes to "doing" it. I find that to be paradoxical. Do we "do" our heart beat? Our breath (well, sometimes it's intentional, but often not)? Our endocrine functions? How do we lift our hand to our face? If I beat my own heart then I also shine the sun. There is some beautiful neurophysiological research that demonstrates that if I make the decision to carry out a simple task (like scratching my nose), my neuromuscular system shows measurable change in preparation to carry out the activity BEFORE I am consciously aware of making the decision to act. Working with the Yi and converting Jing to Qi to Shen is much deeper and more profound than simply visualizing or imagining energy flowing around in a circle up my spine and down my front... that's just a very loose and inaccurate application of labels to an experiential practice. It is not at all an accurate description of the experience, it's a starting point for beginners and it's very awkward language. This is why I always emphasize the importance of working directly with a credible teacher with this stuff. It's very hard to get it from books and probably equally difficult to get it on one's own.... though not impossible.

 

I appreciate your sharing of your experience but I think it's also important to acknowledge and respect other methods that have been effectively used for centuries. I only replied because of Mokona's request to hear other points of view. I don't mean to invalidate your experience or methods.

[Kali Yuga]

Well, when I think of things it seems that I seem to put them into this way: you have sensitivity, and then you have strength of the energy.

 

You could cultivate awareness into sensing fine and minute nuances both within your own body and the other person's body. It won't necessarily mean that you have an over abundance of energy, but rather that you just have the ability of sensing it. When you have energy that is rather strong, whether or not you've trained to be especially aware of it it will manifest itself in overt ways and make itself known. This of course, isn't completely exclusive because you have to have one to develop the other, but I guess that there is a slight difference between strong energy and strong awareness even though the two are somewhat linked.

 

As to the "different" life energies sort of thing, well that's just something that I have come to infer, after having experiences on my own going through different schools of energy. I was practicing some sort of sufi energy training before the taoist neidan methods that I currently practice, and I came to this conclusion because the energy from my former practice always invariably gave a sort of nice tingly sort of feeling, and would move anywhere where I chose to move it at will, contrasting with the quite hot and strange sensations of chi that that results from my practice of nei-dan, and the comparative limitation of me trying to move that energy around the 2 extraordinary channels with all these blockages.

 

Blockage after blockage it would always be - BAM, it's there, and its gonna take quite awhile to get rid of it. Now I've tried to "bust" through them but it seemed to me that there was a limitation as how fast I could go with the whole "use intention to get through it" sort of thing. I'm thinking that it is also the readiness of the vessel, the body to be ready for this sort of breakthrough. I mean is the body even ready yet for this clearing of energy? Or does my body hold some kind of wisdom within itself that knows when it is good for this to happen or not - that it is still "preparing" itself for it? I really don't know because I've tried to go as fast as I can with my intent, but no matter how much I focused, it really wasn't fast at all. I get what you mean when you say the yi has power and capabilities beyond comprehension, because I've seen some quite impressive things just like you. In my old school ,a test for beginner and intermediate students was for us to be able to harden light bulbs with our chi to smash ceramic tiles, or be stood on with the full weight of the body, without breaking. I was able to do this a few times. Do these things mean my "yi" is deficient? or is it something else entirely? I can't say because I really don't know. I guess more training is only ever the real answer.

 

I'm not saying that the energies from these two practices are different, nor am I saying that they are the same, because I cannot say that clearly I know everything down to a perfect science. There is no clear-cut dichotomy that I am aware of that cuts through all traditions and defines all nuances and differences within the type of energy, and has names for these. I know you're coming from a strictly taoist background and you use that paradigm, but I have to wait to gain the awareness of the complete totality of all the jing-chi-shen before I can make a statement on what is and what isn't. It's pretty much a master-student relationship most of the way, until I become a so-called "master".

 

-----------------

 

I don't exactly know what the message is that I'm supposedly trying to say here, because I'm not disagreeing with what you say. I guess the problem of this arises due to the fact that language owes itself to a sort of ping-pong ball mechanic where one must say something and the other must listen, and to come together to any sort of complete understanding requires much of this back-and-forth mechanic, because it seems almost always impossible to convey the true and full meaning of what one is trying to say within just one sentence, and thus people have to go back and forth talking seeming disagreeing when in fact they mean the same exact thing, and I think that's what we have here

 

if we only had a holographic sort of language where I'd just write some strange symbol, and it's full meaning with all the nuances, would be communicated and understood instantly. *sigh* humans...

 

When it comes to "doing" it. I find that to be paradoxical. Do we "do" our heart beat? Our breath (well, sometimes it's intentional, but often not)? Our endocrine functions? How do we lift our hand to our face? If I beat my own heart then I also shine the sun. There is some beautiful neurophysiological research that demonstrates that if I make the decision to carry out a simple task (like scratching my nose), my neuromuscular system shows measurable change in preparation to carry out the activity BEFORE I am consciously aware of making the decision to act. Working with the Yi and converting Jing to Qi to Shen is much deeper and more profound than simply visualizing or imagining energy flowing around in a circle up my spine and down my front... that's just a very loose and inaccurate application of labels to an experiential practice. It is not at all an accurate description of the experience, it's a starting point for beginners and it's very awkward language. This is why I always emphasize the importance of working directly with a credible teacher with this stuff. It's very hard to get it from books and probably equally difficult to get it on one's own.... though not impossible.

 

I understand what you are saying. Like for when you move chi, no matter how you try you can never "force" it to move anywhere. Rather, its the awareness that you move around that causes it to move and direct it where we wish it to go. So technically, even though we aren't moving it, we also are. It is very paradoxical but at the same time sound. So you know that those who claim that it is one or the other, they are the ones with a sort of limited understanding. Because it is not just one or the other, but both, at the same time neither. It requires a bit more advanced and flexible understanding than most people are capable of, which is why it takes a long time for some to "get" it. LOL.

 

 

I appreciate your sharing of your experience but I think it's also important to acknowledge and respect other methods that have been effectively used for centuries. I only replied because of Mokona's request to hear other points of view. I don't mean to invalidate your experience or methods.

No, of course I take no offense. It's nice to have practitioners here who actually have practice and experience with these sort of techniques, and not just a bunch of armchair chi guys talking about everything that they've read but not having any actual experiences or application of their own. If anything, people like you who have this kind of experience should chime in more often where it's needed, in threads like these, because frankly the forum's become a trash pit really for types who love to talk but do nothing else. We need more people who have experience in their particular practices, because there are too many people here who like to talk without knowing.

[doc benway]

Yeah, words get in the way in so many ways.

In a sense, all of the labeling and "understanding" is just reinforcing the illusion that "I" am something other than all of these feelings and experiences we are describing. When in fact, "I" am just a thought that claims to be "doing" and "having experiences."

Best to practice!

Nice talking to you about this stuff.

[Kali Yuga]

Yeah, words get in the way in so many ways.

In a sense, all of the labeling and "understanding" is just reinforcing the illusion that "I" am something other than all of these feelings and experiences we are describing. When in fact, "I" am just a thought that claims to be "doing" and "having experiences."

Best to practice!

Nice talking to you about this stuff.

Hmm if you take it that way then you could follow that logic through with "what does it matter trying to do anything anyway? What does it matter trying to go somewhere or be someone? There is no me."

 

whats the purpose of training? maybe we are the fools and everyone else actually has it right.

 

LOL.

 

Just a thought.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[doc benway]

Hmm if you take it that way then you could follow that logic through with "what does it matter trying to do anything anyway? What does it matter trying to go somewhere or be someone? There is no me."

 

whats the purpose of training? maybe we are the fools and everyone else actually has it right.

 

LOL.

 

Just a thought.

You're right about that.

There was a time when the non-dual insight hit me like a ton of bricks - a physical, deep in the bones, gut type feeling.

It really messed with my practice for exactly the reasons you describe. It still is there but when it comes down to it, we do what we choose to do for many different reasons. So I choose to continue to practice because I recognize valuable benefits in my worldly life and because I enjoy it.

Does it really make a difference in the long run?

I really don't know.

It has helped so far.

[Mokona]

Thank you for the discussion, everyone. Its very informative for those of us at the beginning of cultivation, thank you.

[wudangspirit]

Wow.... I just read some of your comments and if you all spent 1/2 the time cultivating that you do on arguing who's right and who's wrong about cultivating you'd already be immortal!

 

You all just took 10 years off your life of leaking Jing Qi and Shen

 

hahahahah!!!!

 

Tao Bless

[Birch]

Wow.... I just read some of your comments and if you all spent 1/2 the time cultivating that you do on arguing who's right and who's wrong about cultivating you'd already be immortal!

 

You all just took 10 years off your life of leaking Jing Qi and Shen

 

hahahahah!!!!

 

Tao Bless

 

 

That was a bit hoighty-toighty

 

----disclaimer---this means in my opinion-----

[Birch]

Alright. I'm deep into Aghora 2 and the Bodhri pdf http://www.meditationexpert.com/Stages2.pdf (scroll down to very end)

and both of those seem to me to discuss MCO from a couple of different perspectives.

Props to 5ET for the Aghora book recommendation and to i don't know who for the Bhodri pdf.

 

Anyways, from reading both of the latter, it would seem that MCO is happening all the time anyway. And i got an idea that the circulation itself was jing/chi/shen/void/shen/chi/jing. And if you're spinning it in any channels, you're only catching up to what it's doing anyway. I dunno if that's true but i thought it was interesting enough to ponder and post.

[ChiDragon]

Here is how it was defined:

Jing changes into Chi;

Chi changes into Shen;

Shen changes into Void.

 

It was considered to be the internal alchemy. I did not find anything which says the process was vice versa.

 

MCO only takes place when the breath sunk deep to the lower Dan Tian. Every time when this happens was considered to be one orbit cycle. Someone says it goes only one way; but then someone else says it can go both ways. IMO It really doesn't matter because the MCO was only imaginary. What was significant is actually the breathing which serves the purpose.

Edited September 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Alright. I'm deep into Aghora 2 and the Bodhri pdf http://www.meditationexpert.com/Stages2.pdf (scroll down to very end)

and both of those seem to me to discuss MCO from a couple of different perspectives.

Props to 5ET for the Aghora book recommendation and to i don't know who for the Bhodri pdf.

 

Anyways, from reading both of the latter, it would seem that MCO is happening all the time anyway. And i got an idea that the circulation itself was jing/chi/shen/void/shen/chi/jing. And if you're spinning it in any channels, you're only catching up to what it's doing anyway. I dunno if that's true but i thought it was interesting enough to ponder and post.

Yes, that is very true, the MCO is happening all the time anyways. The issue to me is:

1. The quality of that Qi flow in terms of blockages; think a heart with buildup!

2. The volume of Qi available for the orbit.

 

Practicing the MCO can improve both issues. And I agree, there are many perspectives and methods; each has a use or purpose.

[Birch]

Well, I'm only speaking from my (weirdly progressive IMO) understanding of it.

IMO jing/chi/shen/void is not a linear process with an end point at void. It returns. Even if you just spend time watching it do it (vipassana would be my suggestion for it) IME void can't/doesn't stay void.

 

One time here, TaoMeow exclaimed her understanding of how Tao is set in motion. She hasn't elaborated on it since but I feel like it might be a good moment to do that in this thread.

 

I apologize for my lack of classicism Chi Dragon but most of this stuff and my (limited) understanding of it comes via practice. I do read things and listen and discuss stuff with people but I think that part of it tends to be post-hoc - which is dodgy, like i mentioned elsewhere.

[dawei]

K,

 

Your essentially right...

 

"Through meditation, the body's alchemical processes of internal energy transmutations can be cultivated. Jing can be used to create or increase Qi; likewise, Qi can be used to create or expand the Shen. This creative cycle also works in reverse order by transforming Shen to Qi, and Qi to Jing" -- Dr. Jerry Johnson, Chinese Medical Qigong

 

 

The steps would be:

Prenatal transformation: Dao > Wuji > Shen > Qi > Jing

 

Postnatal transformation: Jing > Qi > Shen > Wuji > Dao

 

[ChiDragon]

The steps would be:

Prenatal transformation: Dao > Wuji > Shen > Qi > Jing

 

Postnatal transformation: Jing > Qi > Shen > Wuji > Dao

 

I don't see how Dao and Wuji get involve with Jing, Qi and Shen. Somebody was really confused about these two terms. IMO This a very bad secondhand information and misleading.

[VCraigP]

I don't see how Dao and Wuji get involve with Jing, Qi and Shen. Somebody was really confused about these two terms. IMO This a very bad secondhand information and misleading.

DUDE!!!

 

It is obvious you don't see because you don't want to see. You have a simplistic and limited view and you cling to it continuously without any attempt to further your knowledge base by educated people. Wow!

 

 

Do you have any idea who Jerry Alan Johnson is!!

 

Do some research. He is a serious authority of medical qigong as well as Taoist priest.

 

OMG. are you here merely to dumb down everyone with your constant reduction to abodominal breathing and other vast oversimplifications??

 

This is what I mean by disinformation. Just keep filling the forum up with your fundamentalist view formed from ...what? Oh yeah, you studied with some people and then decided that old written works in the original chinese would tell you better than living people ever could.

 

I guess you cannot investigate Jerry A Johnson because he is a white guy, right?

 

arrrrgggghhhh

 

done now.

 

have a nice day.

 

Craig

[Bubbles]

Oh yeah, you studied with some people and then decided that old written works in the original chinese would tell you better than living people ever could.

 

 

Furthermore, being knowledgeable in Classical Chinese is not enough to really understand what the ancient texts are talking about. Most of them are cryptic. The practice under good guidance is most important. You have to understand those matters with your flesh and bones.

[ChiDragon]

DUDE!!!

 

It is obvious you don't see because you don't want to see. You have a simplistic and limited view and you cling to it continuously without any attempt to further your knowledge base by educated people. Wow!

 

 

Do you have any idea who Jerry Alan Johnson is!!

 

Do some research. He is a serious authority of medical qigong as well as Taoist priest.

 

OMG. are you here merely to dumb down everyone with your constant reduction to abodominal breathing and other vast oversimplifications??

 

This is what I mean by disinformation. Just keep filling the forum up with your fundamentalist view formed from ...what? Oh yeah, you studied with some people and then decided that old written works in the original chinese would tell you better than living people ever could.

 

I guess you cannot investigate Jerry A Johnson because he is a white guy, right?

 

arrrrgggghhhh

 

done now.

 

have a nice day.

 

Craig

 

I'm addressing the issue not the person. Can you give me some justifications how are Dao and Wuji involve with the rest...??? It just make no sense.

 

Can you define WuJi..???

Edited September 15, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

The understanding of MCO-1, finally, had come to my senses.

 

IMO It really doesn't matter because the MCO was only imaginary.

 

This says it all for me...

 

Not only is the post title very apt, since the OP knows really nothing about the MCO, but knows as little about Qigong. Medical Qigong is closer to ancient medicinal practices than to modern day Chinese Medicine.

 

The 'spiritual' aspect was removed Chinese Medicine and Medical Qigong was abolished outright by the CCP... what is left of Chinese medicine and Qigong in China is brain-controlled explanations... like we read here.

 

If someone were too rational and only wanting to discuss things logically linked, then there is no way to ever understand Wu Ji and Dao as part of the universal processes which brings about life... the the 'returning cycle'... and may explain why one cannot even understand Lao Zi when he talks about Qigong (or early alchemy). Yes, it will make no sense to them. And they can go back to their native scholars all they want to seek answers and be left with nothing but more mis-information to spam and troll with among the internet.

[doc benway]

MCO only takes place when the breath sunk deep to the lower Dan Tian. Every time when this happens was considered to be one orbit cycle. Someone says it goes only one way; but then someone else says it can go both ways. IMO It really doesn't matter because the MCO was only imaginary. What was significant is actually the breathing which serves the purpose.

You are mistaken. You would understand much more clearly if you were to practice Daoist alchemy. You are trying to force your Qi Gong priniciples onto a Daoist alchemical practice. They are different.

 

I don't see how Dao and Wuji get involve with Jing, Qi and Shen. Somebody was really confused about these two terms. IMO This a very bad secondhand information and misleading.

So do you think that the Dao encompasses all things except Jing, Qi, and Shen?

In fact, in some of the alchemical writings and practices you will see:

Jing --> Qi --> Shen --> Wu

I've seen some calligraphy that also includes Dao to that formula after Wu.

You really do need to begin to practice alchemy with a teacher if you hope to understand any of this. Books don't cut it, no matter how old or what language.

 

 

Furthermore, being knowledgeable in Classical Chinese is not enough to really understand what the ancient texts are talking about. Most of them are cryptic. The practice under good guidance is most important. You have to understand those matters with your flesh and bones.

This is critical to understand.

It is like trying to learn Tai Ji Quan from reading the classics if you have never seen Tai Ji Quan. Until you have direct personal experience of the alchemical processes under the guidance of a credible teacher, you really don't have a frame of reference from which to understand.

[Enishi]

I've found that tracing one's awareness up along the physical path of the MCO is useful initially purely for the purpose of becoming conscious of it, along with the chakras it connects to along that path (not the physical locations so much but the psychological dimensions of watery sensuality, expanded love, etc).

 

Oftentimes now when focusing on my Dan Tien there are strong sensations of energy flowing up the MCO without me having to place any intentional focus on it. The Chi knows what to do, just let go and it will flow through the MCO much more strongly than if you try to direct it.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Enishi