How much do we undersatnd the Microcosmic Orbit...?

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon:

 

My own understanding of Chi, Jing, and Shen are similar, to say the least.

 

Shen, being the spirit, is interprable; the interactions of our body and mind in the world around us.

 

Jing is the body, essentially. The physical manifestation of energy; neurological, synaptic, respiratory.

 

Qi/chi is intrinsic energy which is not necessarily material or manifested but can be used to become manifest as physical energy which we express with our actions.

 

 

So i will rephrase my question:

 

1. What is the cycle of these three catagories of human-being?

2. How does the cycle of Jing, Chi, & Shen work;

3. What is the process by which we transmute our being?

 

HNJT...

I am glad that we are in resonance and our terms had come to an agreement. BTW I couldn't be happier to see how you finalized your words in the understanding about Chi, Jing, and Shen. It indicates to me, conceptually, that you do have a crystal clear comprehension of these three elements. Based on our understanding, I can only explain the great ancient concept better with your definitions and modern science.

 

1. Jing is the body, essentially. The physical manifestation of energy; neurological, synaptic, respiratory.

As you said Jing is the body, essentially. If we break it down microscopically, Jing is the basic unit of the body which a body cell. Body cells generate the energy for the body to function holistically, internally as well as externally. Body cells can regenerate themselves by mitosis, split cells.

 

Based on the physiological knowledge, the human body does external breathing and the body cell does internal breathing. The body cell only breathes oxygen which is called cell respiration. The cell respiration is the refined process of the metabolism of the human body. External breathing is to provide the oxygen for the body cells throughout the body. Cell respiration is to generate the biochemical energy, ATP, in order for the internal organs to function. I can finalize it by saying that the Taoist referred as Chi is flowing in the meridians. BTW it did not say a whole lot.

 

For a better comprehensive understand, I would like to correlate the meridian in modern terms. I would say that the meridians are comprised of the arteries, veins, and nerves in the body to function as a whole.

 

2 and 3, 2. How does the cycle of Jing, Chi, & Shen work?

The body cells require nourishment like glucose and oxygen to generate ATP. Without one or the other, the body cell will cease all its function. Thus, it is essential to provide ample of oxygen to the body cells. As I indicated before, Chi Kung is about the practice of enhancing the respiratory system to sustain the health of the body. It was valid to say the purpose of Chi Kung was to provide a maximum of oxygen which the body allows to have.

 

In summary, Jing is the essential unit of a human body. As long one can provide what it needs, then it will perform its function in according to how much was provided. Therefore, if a maximum provision of nourishment was provided, then the efficiency of its function will be at its peak. Another word, the Qi will be at its utmost to fine tune the body to perform its function with the most efficiency. Finally, the Shen will display the body conditions by manifesting the potency of the Jing and the ability to produce the amount of the Qi energy it had generated. However, if the Jing were no longer transmute into Qi, then the Shen will show the body in a fatigue status. For longevity, A Taoist wants to have the Shen to display the body is at its tip-top shape.

[ChiDragon]

I agree it was vague because very long is depending on what one is refering

well it is said that "oxidative phosphorylation in the respiratory chain" is relative long" also the ATP is if used maximum then it last 2-3 sek then it will use the reserve of Creatinphosphat which last about 6-10 sek if work on max. If this do not work a other mechanism will come which we know better is glucose into lactat to regenerate ATP which is different then the which is fast.

 

Glucose + O2 = H2O + CO2 + heat + energyunit(ATP)

 

1. So my mistake was to not differ the Mechanism of "oxidative phosphorylation in the respiratory chain" as taking very long compared with the "Lactat Process" since I fall into the trap of just speaking of the above reaction.

 

2. Again the Lactat Process again is not something one really want if not for emergency since the liver will regenerate back to glucose from the lactat with the use of ATP and at times will use protein from the own body to make this process work.

 

 

3. So you can say that slow motion ad moderate use of strenth will not touch the Lactat Process and preserve the energy.

 

Q

 

1. OK...!!! I buy that, but the speed is really insignificant here. It is a matter does the cell respiration takes place or not.

 

2. That Lactate process takes place, only and only if, when there is a lack of oxygen. Indeed, the glucose will turn into lactate and causing the muscle to fatigue and pain due to hypoxia. However, if there were sufficient of oxygen, the glucose will not turn into lactate but at the final stage of cell respiration will generate a maximum of 38 molecules of ATP. Only 36 ATP are available for the usage of the body. It was because the body cell had used up 2 ATP for the cell respiration process itself.

 

Glucose + O2 => Lactate

 

3. Exactly, breathing slowly will provide plenty of oxygen for the body cells to produce the ATP. BTW according to the natural law, energy cannot be destroyed, stored or preserved. Energy will be dissolved if it was not used but it can be regenerated again.

 

Glucose + O2 => H2O + CO2 + heat + energy unit(ATP)

Edited September 17, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Okay im still working it out so let's see what i've got so far:

 

 

We exist in and of the Tao, which fills the void yet also distinguishes it. Floating around the void are our energy/matter experiences, we exist between the two extremes.

Our material bodies draw in both material and immaterial energies with which we use to grow, thrive, and survive. We take in material energy from food and oxygen, and immaterial energy from everything (with a little focus and concentration) as it exists in and of everything, much like the tao itself.

 

The objective (for lack of a better expression) is to cultivate much chi in irder to provide the jing with vitality and potency, through which we can raise the chi into the shen and then into the void where we repose with the tao and, apparently, achieve longevity or even immortality.

[dawei]

BTW according to the natural law, energy cannot be destroyed, stored or preserved. Energy will be dissolved if it was not used but it can be regenerated again.

It's too bad you want to regurgitate theory instead of practice... this is simply wrong... but I know you have never practiced regenerating cellular or energetic matrices. Nor read about such things... For you, it will never happen due to the ingrained belief system. I might call this 'tricycle qigong'; three wheels are needed for balance.

[ChiDragon]

Okay im still working it out so let's see what i've got so far:

 

 

We exist in and of the Tao, which fills the void yet also distinguishes it. Floating around the void are our energy/matter experiences, we exist between the two extremes.

Our material bodies draw in both material and immaterial energies with which we use to grow, thrive, and survive. We take in material energy from food and oxygen, and immaterial energy from everything (with a little focus and concentration) as it exists in and of everything, much like the tao itself.

 

The objective (for lack of a better expression) is to cultivate much chi in irder to provide the jing with vitality and potency, through which we can raise the chi into the shen and then into the void where we repose with the tao and, apparently, achieve longevity or even immortality.

 

HNJT...

I want to thank you for having an open mind more than following the thoughts....

[Informer]

"In cell biology, a mitochondrion (plural mitochondria) is a membrane-enclosed organelle found in most eukaryotic cells.[1] These organelles range from 0.5 to 10 micrometers (μm) in diameter. Mitochondria are sometimes described as "cellular power plants" because they generate most of the cell's supply of adenosine triphosphate (ATP), used as a source of chemical energy.[2] In addition to supplying cellular energy, mitochondria are involved in a range of other processes, such as signaling, cellular differentiation, cell death, as well as the control of the cell cycle and cell growth.[3] Mitochondria have been implicated in several human diseases, including mitochondrial disorders[4] and cardiac dysfunction,[5] and may play a role in the aging process. The word mitochondrion comes from the Greek μίτος or mitos, thread + χονδρίον or chondrion, granule."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion

[Kali Yuga]

I disagree with what you all are trying to do here. You guys are trying to physicalize this daoist esoteric science into a mundane biochemical mindset - which is very shoddy to say the least to handle something as profound as what we have here. It is very inadequate at describing the real processes and happenings within the human body. You guys are going off thread into which does not reflect the topic itself is which is "what do we know about the microcosmic orbit". Key word: KNOW. The only way to have knowledge of this sort of thing is to experience it. you guys are debating pure conjecture here which is off topic and rather pointless.

 

This whole matter is incredibly simple. Either you have a credible teacher who has mastered the training regimen you want to undergo, have experimented yourself and achieved some experiential knowledge(of which hopefully you don't screw up), or are just a book worm with none of the actual experiential knowledge that comes only through practicing the techniques in deep meditation.

 

You could try to explain everything within the western mindset but it will always fail at some point. You can't achieve anything here. How can western science explain the creation of the immortal body? It can't. Why? Because it isn't equipped to deal with disciplines such as this, because by fact these things exist outside of the limited materialistic and mechanical framework of western understanding. Its a moot effort.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Kali Yuga

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Kali Yuga]

I have to agree with you when you say it is definitely not adenosine triphosphate that is running through the orbit pathways. I think this would be self-evident because ATP is limited by its physical form, whereas chi is most definitely not. ATP is the physical bond which has first to be broken in order to release energy - it is not the energy in itself. I think anyone with a third year highschool background remembers that it's the third phosphate bond which is broken through hydrolysis to achieve the extra energy. ATP is a physical form - a potential form of energy with a physical form.

 

We all know chi is not limited by the physical form , the closest we can describe it is something akin to electromagnetism, however this is still definitely not it.

But it is still not it. Remember the John Chang video? They could not identify the chi energy on the electromagnetic spectrum despite their efforts. But you see this is exactly what I'm trying to avoid this kind of useless drivel by assuming that it is such and such that moves through the orbit.

 

The only use for such a discussion is merely a hypothesis and nothing more. In order to say what is and what isn't you have to have sound experimentation on it, however the hypothesis by itself, and hence the conjecture we make here proves nothing really.

 

 

 

I am not arguing that materialism and spiritualism be exclusive, far from it. I am arguing that western science is too young and backward to readily accommodate such things into itself. No doubt in time this will be the case, but that will take a very long time, and it will take a reworking of the very model of which modern science is based on, not to mention overcoming the vatican-like resistance of the traditional science orthodoxy that has always placed itself as head and judge over what is "legit" science and what is not. The times will change, but people however remain the same.

 

You could provide the most thought provoking and incredible sound data to people but however if they choose to be skeptical then they will remain skeptical. I know this will be the case in the future, however until that day, we have an incredibly long way to go before we start saying what is defacto understanding of the chi science through western eyes. this is why I suggest that it is at best, just talk, and just that, and the fact remains that from a western standpoint we don't really "know" anything, hence clashing with the title of the thread. which is why I'm suggesting that we stick to the experiential viewpoint or at least if it has to be backed up by books, something that has roots in experience itself.

 

because if not so, then I fear this thread will just be turned into another one of those trashy threads full of armchair chi guys telling people about what they dont know. Like for example it is quite deceiving to a newcomer to the techniques of MCO to believe that a simple deep abdominal breath concludes the whole practice of MCO. this is not true at all.

[ChiDragon]

I have to agree with you when you say it is definitely not adenosine triphosphate that is running through the orbit pathways. I think this would be self-evident because ATP is limited by its physical form, whereas chi is most definitely not. ATP is the physical bond which has first to be broken in order to release energy - it is not the energy in itself. I think anyone with a third year highschool background remembers that it's the third phosphate bond which is broken through hydrolysis to achieve the extra energy. ATP is a physical form - a potential form of energy with a physical form.

 

FYI....

ATP is a form of biochemical energy which was the final breakdown of the glucose by oxygen already. Please get the fact straight. I will make no further comments to confuse the issue nor to argue about that the ATP was being a potential form of energy which it is not.

[ChiDragon]

"In cell biology, a mitochondrion (plural mitochondria) is a membrane-enclosed organelle found in most eukaryotic cells.[1] These organelles range from 0.5 to 10 micrometers (μm) in diameter. Mitochondria are sometimes described as "cellular power plants" because they generate most of the cell's supply of adenosine triphosphate (ATP), used as a source of chemical energy.[2] In addition to supplying cellular energy, mitochondria are involved in a range of other processes, such as signaling, cellular differentiation, cell death, as well as the control of the cell cycle and cell growth.[3] Mitochondria have been implicated in several human diseases, including mitochondrial disorders[4] and cardiac dysfunction,[5] and may play a role in the aging process. The word mitochondrion comes from the Greek μίτος or mitos, thread + χονδρίον or chondrion, granule."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion

 

Yes, mitochondria was described as "cellular power plants". Can you imagine what could have happened if one can allow the maximum capability of the mitochondria to generate the ultimate number of ATP all at once. I think that the human body would have a tremendous body strength at that instance. Doesn't that make you wonder why does a Chi Kung practitioner can release a great amount of energy from his body...??? Where do you think his Jin came from...???

 

Edited to add:

What's so great about ATP?

Every time you move a muscle, think, breathe, replicate your DNA, every time your heart beats - you use ATP to do this work!

 

My link: ATP

Edited September 18, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Kali Yuga]

FYI....

ATP is a form of biochemical energy which was the final breakdown of the glucose by oxygen already. Please get the fact straight. I will make no further comments to confuse the issue nor to argue about that the ATP was being a potential form of energy which it is not.

No I believe it is you who does not have his facts straight. ATP is still a potential form of energy which is converted into a kinetic energy upon the breaking of the third phosphate group. key word here is potential. the ATP is still further worked on to release that energy into a kinetic form of energy utilizable by the cell. there is a difference. the third phosphate group has to be broken off for that energy to be realized. the cell of the human body does not use ATP directly. the kinetic energy gained from the breaking of the ATP is the energy that is being utilized.

 

 

it is like gasoline. the car does not utilize gasoline in itself , the car uses the kinetic energy released from the combustion of gasoline to generate movement. if the gasoline is not acted upon it is not kinetic energy. it is only a potential form of energy. it is the same with ATP. if the third phosphate bond is not broken there is no energy generated. there is a difference.

 

page 5.

[doc benway]

FYI....

ATP is a form of biochemical energy which was the final breakdown of the glucose by oxygen already. Please get the fact straight. I will make no further comments to confuse the issue nor to argue about that the ATP was being a potential form of energy which it is not.

FYI...

You are biochemically incorrect, Chi Dragon - ATP is Adenosine Triphosphate.

It is a stable molecule. It has the potential to create energy by being transformed into ADP, Adenosine Diphosphate, and then ADP can be converted to AMP, Adenosine Monophosphate to yield additional energy. The ATP molecule has the potential to create energy, hence the term potential energy. It is a structure that is physically stable and can transport energy from one area of the cell to another without losing it. That is it's whole purpose. The energy is not in free until the phosphate bond is broken. It is the conversion that is energetic, the chemical change, not the ATP molecule itself. That only has the potential to yield energy. Kali Yuga is exactly correct.

Edited September 18, 2011 by steve
Sorry - I was typing at the same time as Kali Yuga, don't mean to be redundant

[ChiDragon]

No I believe it is you who does not have his facts straight. ATP is still a potential form of energy which is converted into a kinetic energy upon the breaking of the third phosphate group. key word here is potential. the ATP is still further worked on to release that energy into a kinetic form of energy utilizable by the cell. there is a difference. the third phosphate group has to be broken off for that energy to be realized. the cell of the human body does not use ATP directly. the kinetic energy gained from the breaking of the ATP is the energy that is being utilized.

page 5.

 

Thanks guys...

Now I know what the argument was all about. I am glad to have someone that will never hesitate to point out my mistakes especially when I have missing something.

 

General speaking, ATP is a form of energy which it easier for people to understand. It's OK if you want to break it down further as a chemist. However, the final result was still the use of energy from the ATP.

 

IMO It would be impractical, every time when ATP was mentioned, to explain to people it is a potential energy which has to be converted to kinetic energy; but I do appreciate for the link showing the further breakdown of the ATP from potential to kinetic energy.

 

@ friend:

In addition, I also appreciate for the comments made by you about the exoteric science and esoteric science.

Peace among us.......

Edited September 18, 2011 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

General speaking, ATP is a form of energy which it easier for people to understand. It's OK if you want to break it down further as a chemist. However, the final result was still the use of energy from the ATP.

 

IMO It would be impractical, every time when ATP was mentioned, to explain to people it is a potential energy which has to be converted to kinetic energy; but I do appreciate for the link showing the further breakdown of the ATP from potential to kinetic energy.

 

It's even easier to understand energy and don't even think about chemistry.

This is not about ease of understanding as much as it's about accuracy and applicability.

The distinction between potential energy and kinetic energy is critical.

The reason is this: Energy is change. It is in motion. It is not static. A chemical compound like ATP or NADHP or glucose has the potential to yield energy. Many other molecules do as well. ATP just happens to be the most commonly used chemical to transport energy from one reaction to another in the cell. You could just as easily say energy in contained in our food and air and leave it at that. Why "break it down further as a chemist" as you said above and describe how that is first converted to ATP?

 

What you are describing is NOT the microcosmic orbit. From the Daoist alchemy perspective, the orbit is a technique used to develop a very specific skill - clarification and refinement of the Yi. Chinese medicine practitioners have developed complex "energetic" theory of the human body. Energy flow through the ren mai and du mai is referred to as the microcosmic orbit. What you are doing is trying to equate this and the concept of Qi with Western biochemical principles. I think there are some very interesting overlaps between the two but to reduce the microcosmic orbit to a biomechanical equation is nonsense, to put it bluntly.

 

Earlier you mentioned that you have been unable to understand or make any sense of the classical writings of Jing, Qi, and Shen. The reason for this is that you do not have any training in Daoist alchemy. It is a very specific, unambiguous system with a multitude of variations. There is one thing that all systems have in common, however, and that is the refinement and development of the Yi - the mind of intent. Different schools go about this in different ways. Some schools use dissolving methods (the so called "water" methods as can be found in Bruce Frantzis' work). Other schools use the microcosmic orbit and other, more advanced techniques (the so called "fire" methods) which is the group that my school comes from.

 

If you want to understand Jing, Qi, and Shen you will need to find an alchemy teacher. It is not biochemistry. It is mental, energetic, and spiritual. Is it possible that chemical changes occur in the body as a consequence of such training? It's certainly possible - to my knowledge no one has documented this and, frankly, it is completely irrelevant to the practice. The Daoist masters did not use test tubes, computers, pens, or paper to reach their insights - they practiced alchemical methods such as the microcosmic orbit (the most basic, foundation practice in the fire methods). Their insights were experiential, not analytical. THere is nothing wrong with biochemistry and analytical thinking but it is NOT alchemy and has little to do with the microcosmic orbit.

[Birch]

I was thinking about this thread and it ocurred to me that the scientific "chemical" route might be a way to feel less freaked out about such things. It's like being in love but i think somehow people don't want to "know" about the chemical mechanisms of it. So why would one want to know about the (maybe) corresponding chemical/neurological mechanisms of MCO? Feel better? I suppose one might. Come across as "more scientific" ? (which is IMO another set of metaphysical "thingies" :-))

Control?

I wonder...

Anyway, IME once your meridians are firing/lit up nicely, they look like what I figure neural pathways would look like if we could see them. Or something like that. Point I'm trying to make is as long as your reading of it is helpful to you then I guess that's what it is. But when you start sharing your idea of it with other people and it doesn't match, then look at why it doesn't match, not keep banging heads:-)

[exorcist_1699]

The best concepts to describe the arise and proceeding of the Microcosmic circulation is still the "formula" of jing , qi and shen, any attempt to re-interprete it in western physical or chemical terms is doomed to be a failure;

 

Such an attempt is just to limit something great in your deliberately invented framework, which also bars your achieving something higher in your practice because by using it to understand and interpret what happened in your practice, such a thought already entangles, pulls you back ; it does no help to make you understand more and march forward..

 

 

It is some kind of " cultural " karma/devil("魔") that many people in the West not sense it ...

 

 

Just point out one critical thing : Without having nourished a Mind out of mindlessness, and let it take charge of the whole process, you can't have any real Microcosmic circulation; there is always a spiritual intervention, and it is critical . On the other hand, in Western science, whatever things and status we define : energy, heat, gravity, momentum, free fall... all are objective existence independent of our intervention; even in the theory of Relativity , any participants or observers of the experiment, their mind does not intervene, let alone being the critical element in the process...

 

What physical or chemical law tells you that from absolute emptiness a MIND , so different from our daily trivial emotions, reasoning ( no matter how logical and delicate it is ) and intuition, can pop up , and is nearly omnipotent ?

Edited September 19, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[ChiDragon]

Have you guys ever thought of that Jing, Chi and Shen are part of the Internal Alchemy...???

 

Is the Internal Alchemy part of the MCO or separated....???

Edited September 19, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Birch]

Yeah, unfortunately Exorcist has it nailed. I thought chemistry might save me too but then i dipped into physics (we keep splitty-ing things so we can't get it IMO :-)) and it just flew.

IME if you're doing MCO at one point you feel yourself held together in your form by "something". It might be intent:-)

I found that batty. But IMO it's just as batty as breaking onself down into tiny molecules and chemical reactions. Don't forget DMT:-)!

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I disagree with what you all are trying to do here. You guys are trying to physicalize this daoist esoteric science into a mundane biochemical mindset - which is very shoddy to say the least to handle something as profound as what we have here. It is very inadequate at describing the real processes and happenings within the human body. You guys are going off thread into which does not reflect the topic itself is which is "what do we know about the microcosmic orbit". Key word: KNOW. The only way to have knowledge of this sort of thing is to experience it. you guys are debating pure conjecture here which is off topic and rather pointless.

 

This whole matter is incredibly simple. Either you have a credible teacher who has mastered the training regimen you want to undergo, have experimented yourself and achieved some experiential knowledge(of which hopefully you don't screw up), or are just a book worm with none of the actual experiential knowledge that comes only through practicing the techniques in deep meditation.

 

You could try to explain everything within the western mindset but it will always fail at some point. You can't achieve anything here. How can western science explain the creation of the immortal body? It can't. Why? Because it isn't equipped to deal with disciplines such as this, because by fact these things exist outside of the limited materialistic and mechanical framework of western understanding. Its a moot effort.

 

 

I'm only trying to figure it out and do what i can without present guidance. IF (IF IF IF IF) I could be taught and guided by someone who knows, i wouldnt waste my time here, but i am, without choice in the matter, forced to be my own teacher, thus a bookworm of sorts.

 

I am unwilling to just sit idly by and rot from the inside out, I will do what i can, and learn on my own and by word of... ahem web, i guess. I practice what i know, and experiment with what i am trying to learn.

 

AGAIN, i have no means of being taught by someone with knowledge on the subject, i live in America, land of the brain dead, home of the freeloader. Where are masters in the Mojave Desert? Where are individuals to go, where no guidance can be sought?

 

I have no money, no income, no real place to call my own, i live on other people's schedules and time. My life belongs not to me, nor do i have access to the tools to lay claim to my own life.

 

And so...

 

Here i sit, debating, discussing, arguing, sharing, trying to learn something that can make my life belong to me.

[Informer]

There is some good info about it in this thread.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/20275-chakra-and-micro-cosmic-orbit/page__st__64__p__287664__hl__Micro%20Cosmic%20Orbit__fromsearch__1entry287664

[Astral_Anima]

Most things about the microcosmic orbit that I've ever read are bullsh$t in my opinion. Especially that stuff from Mantak Chia etc, "using you intention to move energy around the MCO" etc. At first when I did not have any experience I believed all the stuff Chia had to offer. Imagining I had energy etc and then circulating it around the spine and points i thought the stuff was real. But when I experienced my own awakening of the MCO it was completely against all of that stuff that I had ever read and this made me have disdain for all these things I had read that had no reflection on to what was happening to me.

 

When I started building It was then I realized to try to attempt to do MCO is a joke. There is no such thing as "using intention to move the energy around at will" or all that BS about "circling the energy 36 times this and and 72 timed that way" to lock it in dantien. Thats a joke.

 

When you do MCO, you first build very hot yang energy in the dantien until the dantien does not take it anymore. It is then that your energy will spill down through this channel to your tail bone, where it will slowly rewire your nervous system and remove blockage, ascending up to your crown and then back down the front. Some people are very good at this initial step of generating energy at dantien, and some take very long. The energy first becomes hot, but then after a bit of practice you can get it to unbelievably hot. I happened to be one of the quicker fellows when I learned of other people similar experiences. This is when I learned that when you have energy, you will really effing know it. You will not question this. Your energy pops out and makes itself noticeable any time of the day even without your conscious intention to feel it or move it.

 

You can't do the MCO without actually having the energy to move around first. There is nothing that you can even move or lock if you haven't spent considerable time in meditation building up energy that will actually circulate around these points.In my experience there is not even the "technique of MCO" or even the intention. If you just build up that energy to the point where it is undeniably tangible and not some cerebral construct that you think is there but actually isn't, the MCO takes care of you, you do not take care of it. To actually finish MCO and clear through all blockages? LOL, will probably take you years. Very much depending on the person.

 

Another thing about the MCO BS is that you can just use your intention to do the whole thing. The energy goes where it goes and does what it does. You will ALWAYS have a lot of blockages around both your main channels where your energy will get stuck. The energy will work on that until it can dissolve it or shoot through it. It can take months or longer to break through a single blockage, and the buildup of energy can be painful until you get done with it. The thing I've never seen written about the MCO is that there will always undeniably be blockages in your channels that your energy will have to be clear before it can proceed. Theres no such thing as finishing the whole thing in a day.It can take a LONG time to clear those blockages and the energy pooling and working at clearing that up does not always bring a pleasant sensation.

 

My understanding of the MCO does not come from any sort of book or intellectual cerebral conjecture. It comes from personal experience. Forget what you "know" about the MCO. Just practice and forget all of this book crap. After seeing my own personal experiences and comparing them with books I've read I conclude that I have been thoroughly had - a deception if you will. Nothing I've read in the books described this process accurately and to think we pay money for this stuff. Just goes to show if you don't know anything about what you're getting into you can be quite easily led off on a trail along with your money. I suggest if you guys actually want to make this a worthwhile thread you want to have people here comment with their own personal experiences, and not just about "what we know" when in fact to not experience is to not know.

 

Fill your dam (dantien) with water (chi) and it will soon overflow into the trenches built for it (main channels). You can't do any of this if you dont even have enough water to begin with. To attempt MCO before even filling dantien is a joke - its like putting the carriage in front of the horse. No amount of prodding or visualization will make things happen if you have no juice.

 

this is what I've heard and read in Bill Bodri's Book, Toaist Yoga and Immortality and from mo pai's system. The method of building chi in the dan tien to produce heat which eventually "spills over" and moves up the spine.

 

My personal experience = I've gotten to the "heat" stage of these techs but then stopped and started kunlun again. With kunlun I've had the experience of a strong sensation that feels like an electric current...quite uncomfortable at times. When I "release" it, it starts in the heart. When I first started kunlun it'd get stuck between my shoulder blades in my back. Then after a few months it moved to the base of the neck. About a week ago it cracked the base of my skull and currently is working on that spot. Now I may not be experiencing the MCO because I haven't been building chi in my LDT, I've been releasing something that starts in the heart, thats my experience with kunlun/spntaneous practice. But if we're talking from books, I've always heard the building of chi in the LDT through concentration and deep (abdominal) breathing. Actually in the book by Lu K'uan Yu, it says to start with "fixing the spirit in it's original cavity" BEFORE ever attempting to do the MCO. If I may quote a paragraph...

 

While putting the generative force into orbit it is of paramount importance to locate the original cavity of spirit in the brain which is precisely where a light manifests in the head when the practitioner succeeds in concentrating his seeing effectively on the central spot between and behind the eyes. If this is not done, the radient inner fire raising to the head during the microcosmic orbiting may be mistaken for that light and wrongly driven into a minor psychic centre in the head from which it will be very difficult to dislodge it. Many untutored and inexperienced practitioners makes this mistake which hinders the progress of alchemy

 

It also seems to stress well regulated breathing...

 

It is in the solar plexus that the generative force (now the alchemical agent) is transmuted into vitality which rises to the brain (ni wan) where the vital breath, hitherto hidden and dormant, will be stirred by well regulated breathing which will prevent it from dispersing.

 

Not to say this book is the "Authority" but it's just another interesting piece of info.

 

-Astral

Edited September 24, 2011 by Astral_Anima