No-ego taoism

[deci belle]

[Apech]

Apech~ I'll concede understanding, but it's not mine. It's the nature of objectivity that enables selfless adaption.

 

OK I would say that its possible to use the word 'understanding' to mean 'standing under' ... getting to what 'stands under' all things. Its not intellectual knowledge but an insight into what underlies all that we perceive and experience. There are small and big understandings ... like when we finally click about what's going on in a situation - that's a small one - we've seen through appearances to what lies beneath. And a sense of spirit or energy or consciousness in a given moment - well that might be a big understanding. I agree its not yours or mine ... except in that we allow it for ourselves at that given moment ... so maybe you might understand and I might not (because I haven't allowed it) so then it would be yours in a sense.

 

I think the 'desire' thing is about intent. We can intend back to mystery or into form/existence. Desire is not a bad thing per se. In fact it is life enhancing ... albeit in a dangerous way.

[deci belle]

Apech said:

Desire is not a bad thing per se. In fact it is life enhancing ... albeit in a dangerous way.

 

Exactly! Desire is our guiding light! Following desire without stepping over the line (craving) is naturally fulfilling one's destiny.

 

Desire tells us what it is we must engage fully and then pass through spiritually transformed within the context of the firing process of a creative cycle of yin and yang.

 

Recognizing our desires is the time of firmly advancing the fire.

 

Within sincere openness there is no bias or inclination— So within the context of real situations, nothing inside comes out and nothing outside goes in. By seeing through the matrix of created energy cycles one enters (the tiger's lair), potential evolution sealed within spontaneity is preserved wholly by innocent sincere openness.

 

Innocence frees potential by being unminding in all situations; this is flexibly withdrawing the fire. Through endless transformations of energy cycles one passes through without lagging or rushing or committing the slightest slip-up, the buildup of nonpsychological potential fuels one's spiritual refinement.

 

Taoists call this "taking over creation and stealing potential". Buddhists call this "gaining energy by saving energy". But one must have the power to avail oneself of this energy. That is why energy saving techniques to quell anger and cupidity are so crucial to spontaneous ignition of the firing within one's being. The ignition depends on the timing of heaven. The process depends on you. That is the meaning behind the taoist saying that one must refine the self and await the time. It is talking about the quality of readiness and fluidity that is essential to carrying out the work.

 

The firing process of spiritual alchemy is simply complete awareness of ordinary affairs without entertaining feelings and opinions. Even if you have feelings and opinions, you do not entertain them, much less act on them. Therein is the fine line one does not cross in following the heart's desire.

 

All I endeavor to clarify in my descriptions is the firing process of spiritual alchemy. It is a natural process. It isn't taoist. It is the way to clean up residual karmic trappings in order to follow the way in order to enter the way in order to learn the way of selfless nonorigination. There is no end to refinement. Within refinement is mystery upon mystery in endless transformations. The way isn't taoist— it's just a description of an authentic teaching adapted to here and now. The true teachings of the world are embedded in awareness itself. No one tradition has a leg-up on any other. The teachings of the world are precious and give a time-honored vocabulary to those who would keep the knowledge alive.

 

(ed: fixed spacing in 4th paragraph)

Edited September 3, 2011 by deci belle

[deci belle]

Well, what I was saying is that, though Taoism doesn't necessarily speak about the Ego/Self/Atman, but it does prescribe many things that serve to detach from clinging to it; such as loosing selfishness, serving others, being one with the Tao and releasing desires that make us cling to the ordinary world (ordinary world being my own term, I'm sure you know what I mean by it).

 

High level Taoists also practice extreme fasting in various forms which serves to allow them to release the "I need" impulse (which is often described as the root of the Ego in Buddhist writing).

 

When someone is one with the Tao they don't have "hey, what about me" thoughts, so I think even at a more "stream entry" level there is a basic relinquishing of the ego.

 

Now, the other side of this is that Buddhists don't just lose their attachment to the Ego, they also objectively deny it's inherent existence. Taoists might not have used this vehicle, but when you get to the shore you leave the boat behind anyway

 

In regards to Chapter 1 above:

 

"Darkness within darkness"

 

The emptiness of Emptiness. What is emptiness? Emptiness is nothing, but "The named is the mother of the ten thousand things." so when Emptiness is named it is also form.

 

Right now I desire to give an answer to this, so I give it form, but it is not the form that is the answer. If one desires only form then they will only know "the name that can be named." When they don't desire, they can know "the mystery." To desire is to see 10,000 lyrical descriptions, definitions, and fixed perceptions all of which themselves still leave the full mystery ungrasped.

 

Thanks for the question.. mmm, that was tasty

 

And a tasty post it is, HE!❤

 

High level Taoists also practice extreme fasting in various forms which serves to allow them to release the "I need" impulse (which is often described as the root of the Ego in Buddhist writing).

 

That impulse or compulsion does get fried in the process. It is like that circuit is a toaster that gets the proverbial butterknife~ heehee!! It is the big boon that makes self-refinement easier after the stream of conscious knowledge is interrupted by the sudden realization of selflessness.

 

In regards to Chapter 1 above:

 

"Darkness within darkness"

 

The emptiness of Emptiness. What is emptiness? Emptiness is nothing, but "The named is the mother of the ten thousand things." so when Emptiness is named it is also form.

 

Just an observation on true darkness and how we do in fact partake in it when we do not damage its potential with mental distinctions:

 

Silent still darkness is just the light itself, shining back on the source of awareness.

Innocence is the silent stillness of nondiscursive observation~is this not hidden light?

 

So by not turning the light around it naturally becomes manifestation.

 

(ed: delete typo "it" in 3rd-to-last paragraph)

Edited September 5, 2011 by deci belle

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Apech said:

 

 

Following desire without stepping over the line (craving) is naturally fulfilling one's destiny.

 

Desire tells us what it is we must engage fully and then pass through spiritually transformed within the context of the firing process of a creative cycle of yin and yang.

 

Recognizing our desires is the time of firmly advancing the fire.

 

 

I'm glad you bring this up actually. It's an interesting facet of "knowing the time," that is, hearing the call that leads us to destiny. Makes me think about how one's Heart/Fire Spirit is also the locus of desire. The lungs/po spirit have a lot to do with intuition, but the Heart has a more subtle intuition, to my understanding, and when the Heart Spirit is healthy and balanced, people mange to be "in the right place at the right time" as is also the case for destiny

[deci belle]

❤!! Ain't timing the shit!

 

Apech said:

Taoism does have different souls (hung, po) and so on which are parts of being. From my studies on Ancient Egypt I know that they also had different 'souls' or parts of personality (ka, ba, akh, shade and so on) ... so both ways of thinking saw the individual as being made up of different aspects or possibly entities interacting. The two systems are in someways surprisingly similar given their geographical distance. But neither (as far as I know) used the idea of an ego in the way we do. This led me to think that it is possible to analyse the relation between me as an individual being and the absolute (Tao) without using the term ego. When I did this I found I was being more honest about myself

 

That's right— and the ancient Egyptians have that amazing vocabulary for the elements that was introduced a little bit in your thread about the Eye of Horus.

 

That thread lay fallow for quite a while, but I did add something to it after something you said crystalized a thought for me (which I noted in my last post there).

 

Could you please illustrate the way you found to relate self/Self that assists in a more honest introspective posture, Apech? That'd be cool!❤

 

(ed: added Apech's quote and my question)

Edited September 5, 2011 by deci belle