Chakra and Micro cosmic orbit

[Lux ferre]

Hi guys,

 

I've been reading about chakra, Microcosmic orbit and endocrine glands and these seem to fit perfectly except for the lower chakras.

 

Indeed, in most books the root chakra (close to perineum) is linked to the adrenal glands while in the MCO, it's more the door of life (Lumbar 2 - 3) which is linked to that. Somehow this makes more sense as it's physically closer to that point just like the other points.

 

Also it seems that the lower dan tien in the chakra system is located at the place of the sexual center while it's located on the navel in the MCO.

 

So I'm wondering what you think about it ?

 

 

Resume :

 

Chakra - MCO - Glands

 

Root Chakra ------ --- Navel-------------Adrenal glands

Sacral Chakra -------- Sexual center ------ Gonads

Solar Plexus Chakra --- Solar plexus --- ----Pancreas

Heart Chakra --------- Heart -------------Thymus

Throat Chakra - -------Throat ------------ Thyroid

3rd eye Chakra ------- Between eyebrow --- Pituitary

Crown Chakra -------- Crown ------------ Pineal

[konchog uma]

[dawei]

the point is, not every relationship makes perfect sense as far as "oh thats right near there, they must be related.

Exactly!

[Informer]

The chakra's run along the spine, the Dan Tiens (besides UDT) are more forward in the body.

[konchog uma]

The chakra's run along the spine, the Dan Tiens (besides UDT) are more forward in the body.

 

it depends on which system you defer to. i have seen info saying that the chakras are contained within the taiji pole and info that says what you are saying up there. i have seen info saying that the dantiens are more fore, more aft, and exactly the same as the chakras they relate to, sacral, heart, and pineal.

 

when i work with my own chakras, i feel the charge of them in a central place, not along my spine. more within the taiji pole. but this is just my experience with them. traditional chinese medicine does not recognize the chakras, correct? kwan saihung taught me chakra meditations, but in the book about his life by deng ming dao, he is told by a taoist hermit that the chakras don't actually exist. that hermit said they only work because people believe in them.

 

maybe more people can chime in on the subject!

[dawei]

when i work with my own chakras, i feel the charge of them in a central place, not along my spine. more within the taiji pole.

Same for me, along the taiji pole. And when working on someone else to clear out a chakra the taiji pole is helpful to energize after the clearing (by popping the chakra out) to make sure the chakra is seated well.

[konchog uma]

Interesting view.

 

This illustration of the spine in the human body shows the front of the lower spine exists quite centrally.

 

 

When I was first working with my spine (awareness and energy circuits), I felt more aliveness nearer to the spinous processes. However, recently, my attention (during meditation) has been directed more along the anterior spine. (Perhaps the qi is working its way through the anterior ligaments. Who knows. )

 

oh thats neat, thanks!

[Informer]

 

http://www.exploringinfinity.com/products/opening-the-microcosmic-orbit/

[Harmonious Emptiness]

it depends on which system you defer to. i have seen info saying that the chakras are contained within the taiji pole and info that says what you are saying up there. i have seen info saying that the dantiens are more fore, more aft, and exactly the same as the chakras they relate to, sacral, heart, and pineal.

 

when i work with my own chakras, i feel the charge of them in a central place, not along my spine. more within the taiji pole. but this is just my experience with them. traditional chinese medicine does not recognize the chakras, correct? kwan saihung taught me chakra meditations, but in the book about his life by deng ming dao, he is told by a taoist hermit that the chakras don't actually exist. that hermit said they only work because people believe in them.

 

maybe more people can chime in on the subject!

 

Wow, cool. You actually studied with Kwan Sai Hung!

 

If you listen to some stuff online, it seems that Deng Ming Dao more or less used him as a model for a story based on events which may have happened though not necessarily to Kwan Sai Hung himself. I don't doubt his expertise in numerous areas of Taoism, but the accuracy of Chronicles of the Tao to the real life of Kwan Saihung may be mostly fantastic.. Unfortunately even his childhood at Wu Dang seems to be unverifiable. Did he say anything about his past?

 

I do have a few of Deng Ming Dao's books though and am grateful for his illustrations of Taoist knowledge and culture.

 

Here was an earlier Tao Bums thread:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/8102-master-kwan-sai-hung/

 

Edited August 29, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Harmonious Emptiness]

dbl. post

Edited August 29, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[fiveelementtao]

Completely wrong... Root Chakra is not the navel.... Chakras are not connected to physical organs in the same way, the MCO is. you can't simply make these simple cross connections between chakras and dan tiens. Chakras are psychological nexus points, not physical ones.

Chakras and dan tiens serve a completeley different function. Don't mix them up...

MCO deals with the movement of Qi. Chakras deal with the movement of Kundalini. MCO moves Qi energy around the periphery of the body. Kundalini is energy that moves up the spine.

 

Kundalini and Qi are interrelated but they are not the same energy at all and are not interchangeable like you are trying to make them.

MCO is Taoist. Chakras are Yogic. In order to even begin making these kinds of comparisons between different cultural spiritual sciences, you have to have a basic understanding of each science in it's own context. That takes years of intense study under a qualified teacher. You can't learn it from reading a few books. (most of the stuff in books is also totally incorrect!) If you want to learn about chakras, study Yogic sciences. If you want to learn about meridian and dan tiens and how they relate to MCO, study taoist sciences. This is what happens when people try to learn from only books.

If you have respect for Taoism or Yoga and you want to make real progress... pick ONE path and find a teacher...

I think it's great that people are excited about this stuff. So, if it has value to you, treat it with respect as a something that deserves real study and effort. If this stuff could be figured out by reading a couple books in a few weeks, then our ancestors would not have spent lifetimes devoting their lives to learn it.

my .02

 

 

 

Hi guys,

 

I've been reading about chakra, Microcosmic orbit and endocrine glands and these seem to fit perfectly except for the lower chakras.

 

Indeed, in most books the root chakra (close to perineum) is linked to the adrenal glands while in the MCO, it's more the door of life (Lumbar 2 - 3) which is linked to that. Somehow this makes more sense as it's physically closer to that point just like the other points.

 

Also it seems that the lower dan tien in the chakra system is located at the place of the sexual center while it's located on the navel in the MCO.

 

So I'm wondering what you think about it ?

 

 

Resume :

 

Chakra - MCO - Glands

 

Root Chakra ------ --- Navel-------------Adrenal glands

Sacral Chakra -------- Sexual center ------ Gonads

Solar Plexus Chakra --- Solar plexus --- ----Pancreas

Heart Chakra --------- Heart -------------Thymus

Throat Chakra - -------Throat ------------ Thyroid

3rd eye Chakra ------- Between eyebrow --- Pituitary

Crown Chakra -------- Crown ------------ Pineal

[Informer]

Completely wrong... Root Chakra is not the navel.... Chakras are not connected to physical organs in the same way, the MCO is. you can't simply make these simple cross connections between chakras and dan tiens. Chakras are psychological nexus points, not physical ones.

Chakras and dan tiens serve a completeley different function. Don't mix them up...

MCO deals with the movement of Qi. Chakras deal with the movement of Kundalini. MCO moves Qi energy around the periphery of the body. Kundalini is energy that moves up the spine.

 

Kundalini and Qi are interrelated but they are not the same energy at all and are not interchangeable like you are trying to make them.

MCO is Taoist. Chakras are Yogic. In order to even begin making these kinds of comparisons between different cultural spiritual sciences, you have to have a basic understanding of each science in it's own context. That takes years of intense study under a qualified teacher. You can't learn it from reading a few books. (most of the stuff in books is also totally incorrect!) If you want to learn about chakras, study Yogic sciences. If you want to learn about meridian and dan tiens and how they relate to MCO, study taoist sciences. This is what happens when people try to learn from only books.

If you have respect for Taoism or Yoga and you want to make real progress... pick ONE path and find a teacher...

I think it's great that people are excited about this stuff. So, if it has value to you, treat it with respect as a something that deserves real study and effort. If this stuff could be figured out by reading a couple books in a few weeks, then our ancestors would not have spent lifetimes devoting their lives to learn it.

my .02

 

I think it is the same stuff. The Kundalini is just moving jing up the spine to the seat.

 

I think the divisions we imagine are just that, imaginary.

 

 

My .02

 

 

"Students may indeed be encouraged to practice Taoist Yoga exercises or T'ai Chi Ch'uan as a way of building enough energy to begin performing the Microcosmic orbit exercise as it can induce a strain on the nervous system and cause energy depletion if practiced without adequate preparation.[5]"

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcosmic_orbit

Edited August 29, 2011 by Informer

[fiveelementtao]

I think it is the same stuff.

What do you base this on? wikipedia and your "thoughts"? If wikipedia is your source material for making conclusions concerning spiritual sciences that have taken thousands of years to perfect, then, well...

Look, I'm all for finding common ground. But to impose similarities to satisfy our desire to simplify things, is IMO just laziness. These are sciences, disciplines that masters have spent thousands of years perfecting... I have been studying both of these traditions for 20 years. It's easy to stay in one discipline and then make suppositions on the other without any real knowledge. It's another thing to experience them both in their traditional contexts.

 

I suppose we can make whatever cavalier suppositions we want. Based on what I see from here, the moon is made of cheese... I have never been there so I don't really know, but it makes sense... So, I guess kundalini is just jing, works on paper, therefore it must be true...

 

I think it is the same stuff. The Kundalini is just moving jing up the spine. My .02

 

 

"Students may indeed be encouraged to practice Taoist Yoga exercises or T'ai Chi Ch'uan as a way of building enough energy to begin performing the Microcosmic orbit exercise as it can induce a strain on the nervous system and cause energy depletion if practiced without adequate preparation.[5]"

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcosmic_orbit

[Informer]

What do you base this on? wikipedia and your "thoughts"? If wikipedia is your source material for making conclusions concerning spiritual sciences that have taken thousands of years to perfect, then, well...

Look, I'm all for finding common ground. But to impose similarities to satisfy our desire to simplify things, is IMO just laziness. These are sciences, disciplines that masters have spent thousands of years perfecting... I have been studying both of these traditions for 20 years. It's easy to stay in one discipline and then make suppositions on the other without any real knowledge. It's another thing to experience them both in their traditional contexts.

 

I suppose we can make whatever cavalier suppositions we want. Based on what I see from here, the moon is made of cheese... I have never been there so I don't really know, but it makes sense... So, I guess kundalini is just jing, works on paper, therefore it must be true...

 

10,000 years of language barriers and divisions, which now become obsolete this day and age. We have access to every teaching of hundreds of thousands of people, why settle for one?

 

This is based on my .02, and experiences. It is not simply regurgitation as you would seem to condone and or practice.

 

I am sorry this all seems too easy for you, but it is.

 

Swallow the pride of tradition and wake up to reality. Would you live a lie to make money?

Edited August 29, 2011 by Informer

[Informer]

[fiveelementtao]

10,000 years of language barriers and divisions, which now become obsolete this day and age. We have access to every teaching of hundreds of thousands of people, why settle for one?

 

that is not the issue. If your only reason for merging Taoism and Yoga is to make yourself feel closer to other people, I submit that you are not clear on your goals. What is your goal here, informer? What is your agenda in wanting to make these disciplines the same? To feel closer to other people? I have no agenda. If I found that they were similar, I would say so. I found different. And I appreciate that they are different.

 

Your point was that chakras, dan tiens, Qi and Kundalini are essentially the same. If you believe they are and you have some basis to express that thought, then bring more than just wikipedia and your stray thoughts to the discussion.

 

I never said you had to settle for just one. I suggest that in order to fully appreciate a discipline that one should ( in the first few years) focus on one discipline. If you try and squish them together in the beginning, you will only dilute them both and not learn anything of either.

 

I said that I have studied (STUDIED) both for 20 years. So, I didn't settle for one. If you want to study both traditions, then STUDY them. Then bring your findings based on what you have learned from experience from qualified sources and discuss them. That takes time and effort. It's not going to come by making superficial conclusions based on a few books you read. If you are just wanting to make superficial connections without any real basis or understanding because it conveniently fits into your parameters, then what are you accomplishing? Other than feeling a little better... Are you able to practically USE that understanding in a practical way? no.

 

Years ago, I really wanted to understand the connection between chakras and dan tiens, Qi and kundalini and I was not satisfied making superficial conclusions. I went out and learned about each science in their traditional contexts which has given me some understanding and experience of their differences and similarities. Others may have different understandings and if they can bring some real evidence based on study, teachers and experience to the table, I will listen...

 

There are points of commonalities. There are significant differences. The reason why kundalini and qi, chakras and dan tiens are different is because they accomplish DIFFERENT purposes. If they accomplished the same purposes, (i.e. like pranayam and taoist breath work) then you have an interesting similarity to discuss. I am not trying to dissuade you from making connections and bringing people together. But there is a difference between these particular subjects. and knowing those differences is important if you want to make any real headway in your spiritual practice...

[fiveelementtao]

[Jeff]

Years ago, I really wanted to understand the connection between chakras and dan tiens, Qi and kundalini and I was not satisfied making superficial conclusions. I went out and learned about each science in their traditional contexts which has given me some understanding and experience of their differences and similarities. Others may have different understandings and if they can bring some real evidence based on study, teachers and experience to the table, I will listen...

 

There are points of commonalities. There are significant differences. The reason why kundalini and qi, chakras and dan tiens are different is because they accomplish DIFFERENT purposes. If they accomplished the same purposes, (i.e. like pranayam and taoist breath work) then you have an interesting similarity to discuss. I am not trying to dissuade you from making connections and bringing people together. But there is a difference between these particular subjects. and knowing those differences is important if you want to make any real headway in your spiritual practice...

 

Fiveelementtao,

 

If you are willing to share, I would be very interested in hearing the differences that you have found. As an example, have you found any difference between Qi and Prana? Also, do you think chakras & dan tiens are absolute, or mental frameworks that we impose upon our bodies?

 

Thanks, Jeff

 

[Informer]

that is not the issue. If your only reason for merging Taoism and Yoga is to make yourself feel closer to other people, I submit that you are not clear on your goals. What is your goal here, informer? What is your agenda in wanting to make these disciplines the same? To feel closer to other people? I have no agenda. If I found that they were similar, I would say so. I found different. And I appreciate that they are different.

 

I didn't merge anything did I? If so, then good for me

 

Your point was that chakras, dan tiens, Qi and Kundalini are essentially the same. If you believe they are and you have some basis to express that thought, then bring more than just wikipedia and your stray thoughts to the discussion.

 

No, that was not my point. The point is that if you are trying to do MCO without jing you can really get hurt.

 

 

I said that I have studied (STUDIED) both for 20 years. So, I didn't settle for one. If you want to study both traditions, then STUDY them. Then bring your findings based on what you have learned from experience from qualified sources and discuss them. That takes time and effort. It's not going to come by making superficial conclusions based on a few books you read. If you are just wanting to make superficial connections without any real basis or understanding because it conveniently fits into your parameters, then what are you accomplishing? Other than feeling a little better... Are you able to practically USE that understanding in a practical way? no.

 

That is amazing to me that you have studied both for 20 years and still didn't make that correlation. Maybe this is proof that the subjective interpretations of tradition can be blinding.

 

Years ago, I really wanted to understand the connection between chakras and dan tiens, Qi and kundalini and I was not satisfied making superficial conclusions. I went out and learned about each science in their traditional contexts which has given me some understanding and experience of their differences and similarities. Others may have different understandings and if they can bring some real evidence based on study, teachers and experience to the table, I will listen...

 

Sure, real physical evidence of qi = nobel prize, please tell me if you find it as well.

 

There are points of commonalities. There are significant differences. The reason why kundalini and qi, chakras and dan tiens are different is because they accomplish DIFFERENT purposes. If they accomplished the same purposes, (i.e. like pranayam and taoist breath work) then you have an interesting similarity to discuss. I am not trying to dissuade you from making connections and bringing people together. But there is a difference between these particular subjects. and knowing those differences is important if you want to make any real headway in your spiritual practice...

 

The only purposes are the ones imposed by men.

 

Maybe someone can save a few bucks by figuring out how easy all of this really is and use the money to plant a garden or buy a solar panel, or to do something good with the money.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Informer

[Ish]

The wikipedia page you qouted is about MCO, not about the similarities between Yoga and MCO. It is agreat page for understanding the MCO, not about kundalini and chakras...

 

Besides, Yogis have a very deep understanding about sexual fluids and their relationship to Kundalini and prana (Qi). They do not teach that kundalini is merely sexual fluids. They teach that these are two compltlely different animals.

Again, I have no agenda here, if they were the same I would say nothing. According to Yogic sciences, sexual fluids is not Kundalini. These things are different, you want them to be the same... They aren't.. Sorry...

 

Why are wanting to argue with me? It has nothing to do with the subject...

 

As I understand it, Kundalini awakening can happen spontaneously through other energy work not necessarily Indian yoga. IIRC Glenn Morris awakened his kundalini through meditation and MCO practice?

 

Therefore there must be some Taoist literature about kundalini, as it would be ridiculous for generations of Taoist masters who deeply practiced energy work and meditation to not have some who aroused their kundalini.

 

Surely there must be some texts or masters that can describe kundalini in terms of jing/chi/shen etc.

 

My guess (probably completely wrong) is that Kundalini is highly refined chi that when released goes up the Chong Mai (don't know about ida & pingala - is there a parallel in Taoism?)

 

Do you have any information regarding this? considering your extensive experience with both fields of practice I assume you must have figured it all out .

[fiveelementtao]

Informer.. Dude, I am not interested in a typical TTBs mudslinging contest. I have no personal grudge against you and I have no interest in fighting. If you want to stay on topic and can bring some reasoned points to your discussion, I am happy to have a discussion with you.

 

But here is what you said:

I think these things are the same

 

I asked what you based that on.

 

You said because you wanted to bring people together.

 

These are different subjects and not relevant to the discussion which is whether or not chakras and kundalini is the same as dan tiens and MCO.

 

I would, once again like to bring up Critical Thinking

 

When is something True or False, when is something Sometimes True and sometimes false, when is something partially true and partially false. And most importantly... What are a person's emotional agendas in arguing a point and when does that emotional agenda cloud their ability to stay on topic and argue their point intelligently and in context...

 

Anyway, not interested in pointless bickering so, I'm putting you on "ignore" mode.

Best of luck to you....

[fiveelementtao]

Fiveelementtao,

 

If you are willing to share, I would be very interested in hearing the differences that you have found. As an example, have you found any difference between Qi and Prana? Also, do you think chakras & dan tiens are absolute, or mental frameworks that we impose upon our bodies?

 

Thanks, Jeff

 

 

Hi Jeff,

If you search the archives you will find some pretty lengthy posts I have made regarding the differences between the yogic focus and the Taoist focus.

 

In brief: Here is what I have found....There are different types of Qi, there are different types of prana, but Qi and prana are essentially the same thing. To fully understand the different Qis and pranas is a longer subject that I am not expert in. But they are essentially the same thing.,

 

Kundalini and Qi - not the same thing. Kundalini can be stimualted by Prana- definitely. But it has a very specific purpose.

 

Dan tiens are collection points for Qi. They are also places of transmuting Qi.

Chakras are not collection points, they cannot be meditated upon like Dan tiens. When people try to meditate on chakra points, all they are doing is sending prana to meridians or dan tiens. It may have a powerful effect, but it has vey little effect on the chakra.

 

Chakras can only be opened through changes in personality based on life events or upon changes in one's viewpoint of themselves in connection to the rest of the phenomenal world. This shift in understanding is what awakens kundalini. If there is no change in maturitly level in connection with the person's relationship with other people, themselves and the world, then it is by defintion not kundalini...

 

Chakras are gateways to consciousness enhancement, not energy enhancement...

[Informer]

Informer.. Dude, I am not interested in a typical TTBs mudslinging contest. I have no personal grudge against you and I have no interest in fighting. If you want to stay on topic and can bring some reasoned points to your discussion, I am happy to have a discussion with you.

 

But here is what you said:

I think these things are the same

 

I asked what you based that on.

 

You said because you wanted to bring people together.

These are different subjects and not relevant to the discussion which is whether or not chakras and kundalini is the same as dan tiens and MCO.

 

I would, once again like to bring up Critical Thinking

 

When is something True or False, when is something Sometimes True and sometimes false, when is something partially true and partially false. And most importantly... What are a person's emotional agendas in arguing a point and when does that emotional agenda cloud their ability to stay on topic and argue their point intelligently and in context...

 

Anyway, not interested in pointless bickering so, I'm putting you on "ignore" mode.

Best of luck to you....

 

It seems like you are being pretty defensive, you added 2 cents, So I added 2 cents, then you went all in. Just look at how that went.

 

I would appreciate for you to quite putting words into my mouth and to stop assuming so much.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Informer

[suninmyeyes]

Hi guys,

 

I've been reading about chakra, Microcosmic orbit and endocrine glands and these seem to fit perfectly except for the lower chakras.

 

Indeed, in most books the root chakra (close to perineum) is linked to the adrenal glands while in the MCO, it's more the door of life (Lumbar 2 - 3) which is linked to that. Somehow this makes more sense as it's physically closer to that point just like the other points.

 

Also it seems that the lower dan tien in the chakra system is located at the place of the sexual center while it's located on the navel in the MCO.

 

So I'm wondering what you think about it ?

 

 

Resume :

 

Chakra - MCO - Glands

 

Root Chakra ------ --- Navel-------------Adrenal glands

Sacral Chakra -------- Sexual center ------ Gonads

Solar Plexus Chakra --- Solar plexus --- ----Pancreas

Heart Chakra --------- Heart -------------Thymus

Throat Chakra - -------Throat ------------ Thyroid

3rd eye Chakra ------- Between eyebrow --- Pituitary

Crown Chakra -------- Crown ------------ Pineal

As far as I am aware root chakra is at the base of the spine or coccyx ,not navel. Navel chakra is in the navel area.

Prana in the body is distributed through nadis(energy channels),wherever they cross there are chakras which act as sort of 'directors' for pranic distribution, so there are loads of chakras everywhere.

Main chakras are the ones you have mentioned and they closley related to glandular system.

Yogic systems of working with breath and orbits(which are not called as such in yogic system) recgonise that breath is closley related to the mind and studying its connection should deepen understanding of whats life all about.

There are various yogic methods of running the circuit through the chakras which is ment to aid energy/prana distribution, which in turn aids emotional, mental and physical well being(ideally that is lol).

I am exploring how dantien works these days having taken tai chi practise and still figuring out the similarities/differences myself.

[Informer]

I think he is probably mad because he just now realized he is teaching people how to do MCO when they don't have a jing path. I doubt he has a jing path even, or this would have been seemingly evident to him.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Informer