Chakra and Micro cosmic orbit

[effilang]

The body is one complex unit. There is no way in hell that MCO and Kundalini are unrelated.

 

I have gone to some far away places during deep meditation and i can tell you right now that Chakras and Dan Tiens can be moved and interchanged and are always co-developed.

 

Because one culture chooses to call it one thing and another something else doesn't change the fact that all these processes are happening in the same system, within the same confined space and all centers and individual nodes are interconnected regardless of their names.

 

You can build energy in the Lower Dan Tien and move it up or down to activate the chakras individually or pass it around the MCO. Whichever method you choose to concentrate on during your practice, regardless of whether you are focusing on chakras or dan tiens, BOTH chakras and dant tiens will be affected and developed simultaneously. Creating a coarse vocabulary division between common junctions and their paths in order to respect cultural heritages is total absurdity and IMO very short sighted thinking.

 

We have the ability to shift our awareness in order to create a palpable idea of concepts which in themselves are formless, but this is only because we are limited to experiencing matter in a more unrefined state under most circumstances. This however should not confuse us into believing that, what we understand is absolute. These constructs we have of systems are simply handed down conveniences and more often than not will constrict you before they lead you to a true liberation and ultimately a path suiting to your tempo and nature of spiritual development.

 

I respect the opinions of both sides of the conversation, not because they make sense, but because this is the natural order of things, that there is the left and the right, the up and the down. I do not agree with either of you and neither of you should agree with each other. But in my humble experience there is one ultimate goal. The "way" to reach it is entirely dependent on the reality you create, the beliefs you hold, the conviction of your thoughts. Someone with "heart", without knowing what they are doing, which meridian they are working with or what a chakra is at all is very capable of achieving results much greater than the common "educated" alchemical adept, and faster to boot. They can do this because they skip the material construction and connect directly to the source.

 

These systems pertaining to Dan Tiens and Chakras within the reality we exist in are nothing more than calcified propagations of our own though creations brought to physical manifestation by repetitive contemplation and dedicated cultivation of empty ideas.

 

They are like a holographic network emanating from one source which has no form at all, they appear and feel to be what we create to match out convenience. We need them to brace our Shen to a pattern our lower consciousness can understand on a material level in order to coax our dormant spiritual potential into awakening. This in my opinion and personal experience is the nature of the Yogic and Taoist systems comparatively. They are one, but are two. They are two, but are in fact one.

 

Choosing to believe in one over the other is just as valid the other way round when you understand they are empty formulations layered over absolute infinity.

 

Just my two cents anyway.

Edited August 29, 2011 by effilang

[fiveelementtao]

As I understand it, Kundalini awakening can happen spontaneously through other energy work not necessarily Indian yoga. IIRC Glenn Morris awakened his kundalini through meditation and MCO practice?

 

Therefore there must be some Taoist literature about kundalini, as it would be ridiculous for generations of Taoist masters who deeply practiced energy work and meditation to not have some who aroused their kundalini.

 

Surely there must be some texts or masters that can describe kundalini in terms of jing/chi/shen etc.

 

My guess (probably completely wrong) is that Kundalini is highly refined chi that when released goes up the Chong Mai (don't know about ida & pingala - is there a parallel in Taoism?)

 

Do you have any information regarding this? considering your extensive experience with both fields of practice I assume you must have figured it all out .

Hopefully the sarcasm is in jest...I will assume you are asking because you honestly want my opinion. please understand, I am not attacking the quality or effectiveness of KAP practices, I do however disagree with many of their conclusions about the nature of the energy they stimulate...

 

Why MUST there be Taoist literature about kundalini? Does that mean there MUST be yogic literature about fa jing in martial arts? It is a huge universe and there are many ways to interface with it. I do not agree with that assumption.

 

I also disagree with you that Kundalini is refined Qi. That is not what yogis teach. Yogis are very familair with Qi. They call it prana. If yogis wanted to call kudalini highly refined prana, they would say so. They don't. They do however say that Prana can stimulate Kundalini. The assumption that Kundalini is Prana. This is an oversimplification that is understandable if someone is trying to make the connection between the two solely from a purely toaist perspective...

 

So, you have opened a bigger subject which is...

what defines a true kundalini awakening? Is it solely a personal energy experience? Not according to traditional understandings.

I don't want to open a fight about Glen Morris... I have great respect for his teachings. He and his students have clearly created a very powerful and effective energy practice. But, as I understand it, he had an energy experience from practicing Taoist energy work. He then made the assumption that it was a kundalini experience and began calling his teachings kundalini teachings. It may have been, it may not have been. I don't know. But, I do not necessarily agree with his definition of Kundalini... KAP puts alot of emphasis of their definition of kundalini based on physical energy experiences. They also put alot of emphasis on their energy or Kundalini experiences being connected to enlightenment. So, that puts a huge cloud on any reasonable objective discussions about the actual nature of the energy they are stimulating... As you point out, Morris had an energy experience from practicing MCO and he made the assumption that it was kundalini.... If he had then taken that experience to a yogi to determine if it was kundalini or pranic in nature, I would be interested in that discussion. I am not making any judgements about the quality or nature of his experience. But, from an objective standpoint, I don't know if it was kundalini or not. I am also not making any comparisons about the superiority of Kundalini over Qi phenomena. Many people get very reactive when I point out that they are making blanket assumptions about yogic disciplines from a Taoist perspective because they assume I am making a judgejement on the quality of their experience. In other words, many people want their experience to be kundalini because of the hype that word carries with it and they believe that if their experience was not a kundalini experience, then they assume I am saying that their experience is somehow inferior. I am not... I don't put value judgements on ANY energy experience.

 

I am not arguing against spontaneous kundalini "awakenings". I am sure they happen. But, this term has an assumption that I do not entirely agree with which is... When someone has an intense energy experience that has a powerful effect on their life, it must be kundalini.. right? Not necessarily. This is a modern Western understanding of Kundalini... Kundalini can awaken with ZERO physical effects. The problem is that Qi phenomena and what many people consider to be kundalini awakening can be the same. So, there is no way to know if someone is having a powerful Qi phenomena experience, or a neurological experience and calling it kundalini.

 

There is also the emotional baggage attached to the word Kundalini. Because in recent times Westerners have aggressively sought after "enlightenment" etc... Kundalini has become a catch phrase for enlightenement. So, when someone has an energy experience, they want it to be connected to enlightenment, so they immediately attach it to a Kundalini experience.

 

There is also a huge difference between stimulating kundalini and awkening Her. Awakening means that She has pierced the Knots in the chakras (which means that a person's perception has permanently been altered.) Stimulating kundalini and having an energy experience or feeling the friction in meridians as a result of merely stimulating Her is often interpreted as a kundalini awakening. So, the problem is that people want so badly to have the BEST energy enlightenment experience, so it is very difficult to objectively examine whether or not an experience is truly a permanent awakening or just a temporary stimulation. And foget trying to explore this difference with those who are determined to identify their experience as an awakening or a stimulation.

 

IMO, the best book out there to really explain Kundalini is the Aghora series by Robert Svoboda.... He talks alot about common misconceptions concerning the nature of Kundalini.

 

Now, assuming you are a KAP student and you feel I have somehow attacked the quality and nature of your experience, you are wrong. KAP is clearly a superior practice and I highly reccommend to anyone interested...

 

Anyway, this is just my opinion. I know other have different opinons. I'm not interested in an argument.. But, since you asked, there is my .02

[Informer]

I must have missed it, where was it said kundalini = qi?

[fiveelementtao]

The body is one complex unit. There is no way in hell that MCO and Kundalini are unrelated.

 

The question isn't whether they are unrelated. Certainly they are... The question is... Are they the the same thing? I do not argue your experiences or the quality of them. But you are imposing your taoist understanding onto yogic words. If you have experience from a purely yogic perspective and can make a comparison based on contextual training in each discipline, I would be interested in hearing your comparison... Because I am also interested in the interrelation.... I am not saying it doesn't exist, but I a saying if we are serious about making comparisons between different sciences that we take it seriously and objectivley study them in their own contexts and make objective comparisons with a scientific attitude. Otherwise we are just imposing our own agendas on them and IMO diluting each science in an attempt to make ourselves feel better by making everything understandable...

 

A brain surgeon and a pediatrician have similar training but each has their own specialty. The pediatrician wouldn't dare to do brain surgery.... We should have the same respect for Taoism and Yoga...

[VCraigP]

It seems like you are being pretty defensive, you added 2 cents, So I added 2 cents, then you went all in. Just look at how that went.

 

I would appreciate for you to quite putting words into my mouth and to stop assuming so much.

Sorry Informer: You come out looking silly IMO in this argument. 5ET seemed perfectly willing to provide a space for discussion. You made absolutist statements and refused to provide any real basis.

 

 

I am sure you will call out my bias as I respect 5ET and have demonstrated it on the forum. Doesn't change the fact that you made yourself look foolish. My opinion, but I believe 5ET deserves credit for trying to have civil discourse.

 

Craig

[Informer]

Sorry Informer: You come out looking silly IMO in this argument. 5ET seemed perfectly willing to provide a space for discussion. You made absolutist statements and refused to provide any real basis.

 

 

I am sure you will call out my bias as I respect 5ET and have demonstrated it on the forum. Doesn't change the fact that you made yourself look foolish. My opinion, but I believe 5ET deserves credit for trying to have civil discourse.

 

Craig

 

That's ok to feel that way, It was probably wrong of me to say that after he ignored me. No-way to have discourse when ones ears are closed

 

Please point out the statements that I might better understand what you are talking about.

[Enishi]

Stimulating vs. activating Kundalini, along with stimulating vs. activating Chakras would be an interesting avenue of further discussion.

 

I have noticed that when focusing energy on a Chakra for awhile I do become more conscious of that Chakra and it's functions, but it isn't a permanent opening. It does give you a jump start though for become more conscious of the dimensionality of a Chakra in day-to-day life, thus giving one a better sense of how to develop further.

 

Another speculation of mine is that there might be some relationship between the Shakti at the base of the spine and Original Qi, and thus stimulating it via energy practices can provide an extra "charge" that can lead to other things (kundalini and chakra opening, etc).

Edited August 29, 2011 by Enishi

[VCraigP]

 

 

Chakras can only be opened through changes in personality based on life events or upon changes in one's viewpoint of themselves in connection to the rest of the phenomenal world. This shift in understanding is what awakens kundalini. If there is no change in maturitly level in connection with the person's relationship with other people, themselves and the world, then it is by defintion not kundalini...

 

Chakras are gateways to consciousness enhancement, not energy enhancement...

This is precisely the teaching that I have been receiving very recently.

 

each energy center (less culturally charged term) is connected to a certain state of consciousness. And also that it is possible to learn how to choose between states of consciousness at will and move skillfully between them for a variety of purposes.

 

In my view Chakras and Tantiens/meridians/acu points exist on different planes, or different vibrational densities.

 

Do you hold a similar view? ie Tantien/Meridians/acu-points are qi related and therefore closer to the physical body vibration and Chakras represent less dense energy of consciousness?

 

I also resonate with what Effilang said about the systems being constructs which are merely accretions upon the true root of reality. These are indeed tools to work with the pure energy of the universe, which may also be termed the pure energy of consciousness.

 

Is it possible to go directly to the root? Maybe, but more easy for most to use certain tools of perception to move towards the ultimate root of reality.

 

Lately I have been working with the concept of exploring without trying to make things happen. IOW how do you have an energetic experience without trying to make something happen? The majority of qigong and neigung as far as I know are interested in working with energies. There is some Intention to make things happen. Open a meridian. Cook alchemical ingredients in the cauldron. Transmit qi, transmute jing to qi to shen. These are mainly doing practices. Is there a way to work directly with Qi. Is there a way to perceive the flow of energy and learn how to flow with what energy you resonate with? Are forms necessary? Where do forms come from ?

 

Maybe will start another thread soon to expand on the above.

 

Mike, can you comment more about the relationship between the chakras and different states of consciousness?

 

Thanks for hanging in there.

 

Craig

[fiveelementtao]

This is precisely the teaching that I have been receiving very recently.

 

each energy center (less culturally charged term) is connected to a certain state of consciousness. And also that it is possible to learn how to choose between states of consciousness at will and move skillfully between them for a variety of purposes.

 

In my view Chakras and Tantiens/meridians/acu points exist on different planes, or different vibrational densities.

 

Do you hold a similar view? ie Tantien/Meridians/acu-points are qi related and therefore closer to the physical body vibration and Chakras represent less dense energy of consciousness?

 

I also resonate with what Effilang said about the systems being constructs which are merely accretions upon the true root of reality. These are indeed tools to work with the pure energy of the universe, which may also be termed the pure energy of consciousness.

 

Is it possible to go directly to the root? Maybe, but more easy for most to use certain tools of perception to move towards the ultimate root of reality.

 

Lately I have been working with the concept of exploring without trying to make things happen. IOW how do you have an energetic experience without trying to make something happen? The majority of qigong and neigung as far as I know are interested in working with energies. There is some Intention to make things happen. Open a meridian. Cook alchemical ingredients in the cauldron. Transmit qi, transmute jing to qi to shen. These are mainly doing practices. Is there a way to work directly with Qi. Is there a way to perceive the flow of energy and learn how to flow with what energy you resonate with? Are forms necessary? Where do forms come from ?

 

Maybe will start another thread soon to expand on the above.

 

Mike, can you comment more about the relationship between the chakras and different states of consciousness?

 

Thanks for hanging in there.

 

Craig

 

Hi Craig,

Yes, my experience is similar to yours. IME, it is possible to stimulate a chakra while working on a dan tien for example. And there is no doubt that prana, qi, jing etc... can stimulate Kundalini to awaken. There is no doubts about this in Yogic understanding.

 

IME, Chakras and DTs do overlap, so there will be cross stimulation defintely. and yes, my experience is similar to yours that the DTs are physically located gross energy collection points and Chakras are more like vortexes projected into the aura from within the spine. The chakras project our life experience to us. The more we work with the psyche in meditation, the more the projections change. So, certainly working with dan tiens will effect our experience of the Universe and if we then meditate on the changes in our perceptions, the chakras will be stimulated which can stimulate Kundalini to rise which in turn will effect the chakras in the spine which will effect a change in the projection of the chakras into our auras and on and on...

 

I have many of the same questions as you, my friend. I know for me that just doing nei kung without forms would be like pushing a porsche. Yeah, the thing moves but not very fast. Add a physica form and then I have some gas in my nei kung car

 

I think some people have the thing backwards because of only reading advanced nei kung from books but do not have a good external form to get the energy moving and open the meridians first. For me, without my spirit fighting forms and my qigong forms, my nei kung would be maybe 10% as effective.

 

I know that very advanced masters do not need forms any longer. But they spent lifetimes opening meridians through IMA and Qigong forms. I have not reached that stage. I still need my external forms to fill the gas tank in my nei kung car....

 

For me, right now, I need all three. I need my physical qigong and internal MA forms, I need my nei kung practices and the final thing which has taken the whole practice through the roof is then to add the religious/shamanic (however you want to call it) aspect to the whole mix. Mantra and ritual are the rocket fuel to that mix. If someone really wants to learn about kundalini, IME, worship a deity with ritual and mantra. That IME, is the fastest way to effectively awaken Kundalini...

 

 

thanks for your thoughts, Craig...

[effilang]

But you are imposing your taoist understanding onto yogic words.

 

That is your opinion : )

 

 

If you have experience from a purely yogic perspective and can make a comparison based on contextual training in each discipline, I would be interested in hearing your comparison...

 

See. This i feel is where your fault is. You seem to accept that a Yogic experience or a significant chakra or kundalini related alchemical experience is only credible and/or experience-able by someone of a direct Yogic practice. Who here has the authority to define what a Yogic or a Taoist energetic experience should be and under which umbrella it should be categorized? We cannot decide what is what just as much as we cannot classify an experience in order to deem it worthy of acceptance as a criteria for debate and separation between the two systems.

 

What if i have a Yogic experience, but practice neither Yogic or Taoist arts, or anything for that matter? Who then is going to tell me i am right or wrong, or that what i have experienced is not authentic or does not pertain to one system or the other. This void here, is the point i am driving. The differences between the systems are obvious at first glance. The interrelation among them? Other than the fact that they are both geared towards reaching enlightenment and liberation? Why compare? I mean... that is why they are two. So that you can adopt whichever concept integrates most efficiently with your capacity to assimilate higher information.

 

People who are born into a system of thought become one with the system. It is simply natural. For others less fortunate, who search for a system to practice in their developed age, have a much harder time because they have to find something that can seamlessly overlap their already molded system of reception.

 

Otherwise we are just imposing our own agendas on them and IMO diluting each science in an attempt to make ourselves feel better by making everything understandable...

 

The only way to understand something which is complicated is by diluting it into simpler more digestible bite size pieces for easier digestion. There is nothing wrong with making things understandable. In fact i thought that was the point O_o

 

A brain surgeon and a pediatrician have similar training but each has their own specialty. The pediatrician wouldn't dare to do brain surgery.... We should have the same respect for Taoism and Yoga...

 

I think you are creating a great amount of constriction in your ability to understand freely by adding so much significance to "roles", "specialities" and separation in classes.

 

What i explained before WAS from my personal experience. Now just because i have read a Taoist book or two, doesn't mean that i automatically had a Taoist experience. What i have found is that both systems are actually one system and the energies can be interchanged between the paths and routes specified in the individual systems regardless of obvious contradictions which might arise directly from a person looking at things from a strictly structural state of sentience.

 

Complicated spiritual mesh-work is difficult to put into words and sentences, but from what i can tell you based on my personal spiritual experience, and i'm saying this as a person who is informed in both systems of cultivation, that both systems and their respective pathways and centers exist entirely as a manifestation of our own personal conceptual idiosyncratic design.

 

You can reach both goals laid out within both systems by doing what neither system depicts as the rudimentary steps to achieving them. Both systems are dissolve-able and interchange-able. Such a baffling variety of methods exist in number that they can only be equaled to every unique individual and that is precisely the reason there are so many, to cater to everyone's capacity for understanding.

 

The fastest and easiest way really IS, no way at all. And no way is the goal. These systems are designed to awaken dormant minds. They are not made for enlightened beings. This is why they are so full of techniques and rules, because they assume the practitioner has forgotten his innate ability to connect directly to the source. They are designed to bring you back to no way, through a way (a system).

 

During meditation i moved to a place above both of these systems and saw that they are one and the same. The differences we perceive are empty, but in reality. Our reality that is. They seem very palpable. That is because we allow them to be. I know this to be false though. Can i give you data, show you videos or print you diagrams? No, unfortunately i cannot.

 

It is a healthy practice to play with these ideas in your hands, but the moment you get serious about it, you lose the point entirely, because to do that means you're differentiating. And in reality everything is everything. So differentiating and comparing in the long run ironically is like comparing Yoga to Yoga, or Taoism to Taoism. They are one and the same and you'd be comparing them to themselves.

 

I just wanted to say that, but i feel like i will have to step back from this debate, since i have experienced above this reasoning, but cannot show proof for which i am very sad, as i would very much like to share it with you.

 

_/\_

Edited August 29, 2011 by effilang

[effilang]

I also resonate with what Effilang said about the systems being constructs which are merely accretions upon the true root of reality. These are indeed tools to work with the pure energy of the universe, which may also be termed the pure energy of consciousness.

 

Is it possible to go directly to the root? Maybe, but more easy for most to use certain tools of perception to move towards the ultimate root of reality.

 

Exactly Craig! You said it perfectly.

 

I felt like i had a connection-gasm when reading that.

 

It is very pleasing to know that others have experienced this too.

 

These systems are all just empty holograms projected from our own realities over the essence of the "root" as Craig put it.

 

The differences between them are ENDLESS, but so are the SIMILARITIES, but that is because they are one and the same, so going between them would be an infinite loop and you would sooner go crazy than make any logical sense of it.

 

The point however is not to document them endlessly, but to navigate through them, around them, between them, a little from here and a little from there, taking what you need in whatever quantities so that you can do what is truly important and the absolute goal, connecting to the root.

 

The systems. These constructs, they are just designs to help us re-connect, but the moment you connect, even for but a second, the designs and the roads you took to get to the root they disintegrate. They disappear so that you can have no doubt that the source is the only thing that matters, not the method or the system, but the goal.

 

I heard something like this once:

Logic like Alcohol starts to lose it's beneficial effects when used in large quantities.

Edited August 29, 2011 by effilang

[konchog uma]

Wow, cool. You actually studied with Kwan Sai Hung!

 

If you listen to some stuff online, it seems that Deng Ming Dao more or less used him as a model for a story based on events which may have happened though not necessarily to Kwan Sai Hung himself. I don't doubt his expertise in numerous areas of Taoism, but the accuracy of Chronicles of the Tao to the real life of Kwan Saihung may be mostly fantastic.. Unfortunately even his childhood at Wu Dang seems to be unverifiable. Did he say anything about his past?

 

I do have a few of Deng Ming Dao's books though and am grateful for his illustrations of Taoist knowledge and culture.

 

Here was an earlier Tao Bums thread:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/8102-master-kwan-sai-hung/

 

 

i met him 15 years ago and studied under him at a retreat for three days. he taught qigong and meditation, and i had some one on one with him where i told him about surviving an emotionally toxic, abusive childhood. his answer was a specific throat chakra meditation to release memories. so he obviously utilizes the chakras. i wouldn't say that i know him, and he didn't talk about his past.

 

when it comes to authors like deng ming dao, who is obviously a sensationalist, i suspend the process of belief and disbelief. i don't ask "is this true?", instead i ask "is this useful?".

 

i put those stories in the same category as carlos casteneda's accounts of studying shamanism in mexico. probably a mix of true and untrue, but undoubtedly full of useful information and practice.

 

i had suspected that kwan saihung was in fact deng ming dao (since nobody seems to know deng ming dao's whereabouts, and not one person can verify kwan saihung's authenticity. i had seen that frank kai information before. i don't pretend to know the truth, although the man in the picture in that thread is the man who gave the retreat. seems like the whole thing is a con. carlos casteneda did the same thing. hahahah one of his colleagues checked out a book that casteneda had checked out on the day his books claim he was in mexico, taking part in shamanic ritual. (this according to the old library cards, remember those!) described inside that book was the shamanic ritual in question.

 

the world is full of cons, i wouldn't blink an eye if kwan saihung was a total myth. still an interesting story if you have the common sense not to believe it.

Edited August 30, 2011 by anamatva

[konchog uma]

Hi Jeff,

If you search the archives you will find some pretty lengthy posts I have made regarding the differences between the yogic focus and the Taoist focus.

 

In brief: Here is what I have found....There are different types of Qi, there are different types of prana, but Qi and prana are essentially the same thing. To fully understand the different Qis and pranas is a longer subject that I am not expert in. But they are essentially the same thing.,

 

Kundalini and Qi - not the same thing. Kundalini can be stimualted by Prana- definitely. But it has a very specific purpose.

 

Dan tiens are collection points for Qi. They are also places of transmuting Qi.

Chakras are not collection points, they cannot be meditated upon like Dan tiens. When people try to meditate on chakra points, all they are doing is sending prana to meridians or dan tiens. It may have a powerful effect, but it has vey little effect on the chakra.

 

Chakras can only be opened through changes in personality based on life events or upon changes in one's viewpoint of themselves in connection to the rest of the phenomenal world. This shift in understanding is what awakens kundalini. If there is no change in maturitly level in connection with the person's relationship with other people, themselves and the world, then it is by defintion not kundalini...

 

Chakras are gateways to consciousness enhancement, not energy enhancement...

 

thank you that was very informative.

 

people who work with chakras as somehow based in qi can damage their energy system. chakras are consciousness, or light. there should not be heat or tingles, or any other energy in the chakras. in my experience, Maybe in the lower dan tien, but this should be circulated, cooled, or dispersed when one is done meditating on it, or svadisthana consciousness, which can trigger LDT charge. my teacher says if it starts to charge, youre done meditating on it. but thats just him. anyway thanks for pointing out that chakras are very different than qi.

 

i will read some of the threads on dan tien you recommend. thank you again

Edited August 30, 2011 by anamatva

[fiveelementtao]

Effilang,

please forgive me if I have offended you with my brashness, it was not intentional...

 

First, before I respond, I need to address an erroneous unconscious assumption about kundalini that is clouding the issue and making people want to defend their spirituality. And people are not hearing the focus of the discussion...

 

The assumption that I hear is...

that Kundalini is the superior energy that leads to enlightenment. therfore every good spirital practice MUST therefore be kundalini based.

 

That is an assumption that I am challenging. I believe that assumption has diluted the discussion because peoples feelings are getting hurt. Everyone here wants enlightenment, and since Kundalini has been unconsciously accepted as the BEST way to achieve enlightenment, everyone understandably gets personally offended if they feel someone is telling them that their way is inferior because it is not kundalini based. I am not doing that just as I would not say that Tai Chi is superior to Ba Gua. Part of what I am saying is that since people unconsciously want enlightenment they have a tendency to impose kundalini onto every energy system because they have an assumption that it is the only energy that leads to enlightenment...

 

So, let's be clear about the assumption I am operating from.

I do NOT think that Kundalini is the ONLY or BEST way to enlightenment. Nor do I think that any practice that does not focus on kundalini is in any way inferior. So, if I imply that Taoist practice may or may not stimulate kundalini, it does NOT mean that I am saying that anyone's practice is inferior... It makes it difficult to have a reasoned objective discussion if I have to wade through peoples' hurt feelings because they think I am calling their path inferior. I am not. So, please let's try and take that off the table and focus on the points of the discussion.

 

That is your opinion : )

Yes. It is my opinion based on what you are saying. First, let's analyze again why you are wanting to argue with me? Are you feeling that I am minimizing your spiituality by what I am sharing? If so, please take that off of the table. We are talking about different spiritual practices and techniques from different cultures...It is OK to impose. And if you are OK with that so am I. But you are still imposing your Taoist experience onto a yogic experience by your own admission. I am not criticizing that. I am only wishing to keep the discussion about different practices objective. OK?

 

See. This is feel is where your fault is. You seem to accept that a Yogic experience or a significant chakra or kundalini related alchemical experience is only credible and/or experience-able by someone of a direct Yogic practice.

First, I am not saying anything in regards whose energy experiences are more credible. I think you are reading that judgement into my statements based on the whole kundalini assumption I quoted earlier. BUt you are right that I AM saying that someone with limited experience in a traditional yogic path is much less able to speak with authority about that practice. Would you listen to an indian yogi who has never practiced Tai Chi or worse only practice Tai Ji from a book? No, of course not. In that instance, it would be competely understandable if you heard this yogi making inaccurate assumptions about Tai Ji to point out that there is a difference between his assumptions without having been taught by a Tai Ji master. It would be no reflection on his knowledge of yoga, would it? So, I am not making any value judgements about anyone's experience or path......

People who are born into a system of thought become one with the system. It is simply natural. For others less fortunate, who search for a system to practice in their developed age, have a much harder time because they have to find something that can seamlessly overlap their already molded system of reception.

I have no disagreement with this statement but it is not relevant to the discussion which again is... Are chakras, dan tiens kundalini, the same thing? I say no.

The only way to understand something which is complicated is by diluting it into simpler more digestible bite size pieces for easier digestion. There is nothing wrong with making things understandable. In fact i thought that was the point O_o

Ok. again no problem with that.

 

I think you are creating a great amount of constriction in your ability to understand freely by adding so much significance to "roles", "specialities" and separation in classes.

Ok. let's analyze that. This assumes that differences are bad and those differences somehow minimize peoples' ability to experience spirituality. So all IMA's are the same? Is Tai Chi Bagua? Sure there are similarities but if someone wants to make progress in either, they will need to learn the differences at some point.

What i explained before WAS from my personal experience.

You're taking offense where none was intended. My apologies if you felt that minimized your experience... My aim was to refocus the discussion on the specifics...

You can reach both goals laid out within both systems by doing what either systems depicts as the rudimentary steps to achieving them.

No argument here on this point either. But that is not the issue at hand.

This isn't about who is best or right or wrong or better or worse. I have never said any such thing in regards to this issue. This is what I was talking about earlier when I pointed out that people have difficulty talking about Kundalini because there is this unconscious association with kundalini and enlightenment. Since everyone here on this forum wants enlightenement, naturally everybody want to assume that their practice gives enlightenment and therefore their practice must awaken kundalini....

 

We cannot have a logical, reasoned discussion on this topic if peoples' agendas are to prove that they are enlightened...

I just wanted to say that, but i feel like i will have to step back from this debate, since i have experienced above this reasoning, but cannot show proof for which i am very sad, as i would very much like to share it with you.

 

You are welcome in this discussion as far as I am concerned my apologies for any hurt feelings or misunderstandings...

Mike

Edited August 30, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[fiveelementtao]

thank you that was very informative.

 

people who work with chakras as somehow based in qi can damage their energy system. chakras are consciousness, or light. there should not be heat or tingles, or any other energy in the chakras. in my experience, Maybe in the lower dan tien, but this should be circulated, cooled, or dispersed when one is done meditating on it, or svadisthana consciousness, which can trigger LDT charge. my teacher says if it starts to charge, youre done meditating on it. but thats just him. anyway thanks for pointing out that chakras are very different than qi.

 

i will read some of the threads on dan tien you recommend. thank you again

 

Thanks for sharing your understanding.

[dawei]

I am curious how many have connected to the chakra of another person, in terms of reading them and healing?

 

It seems most share what they think based on their own experience in their own body but what can we ultimate say about it if we are only basing it on ourselves alone. I am happy to read of personal practices but it seems to me that as long as any practice is only for yourself you only get a limited view. There are many energy systems which treat the chakras of other people.

[fiveelementtao]

I am curious how many have connected to the chakra of another person, in terms of reading them and healing?

 

It seems most share what they think based on their own experience in their own body but what can we ultimate say about it if we are only basing it on ourselves alone. I am happy to read of personal practices but it seems to me that as long as any practice is only for yourself you only get a limited view. There are many energy systems which treat the chakras of other people.

There are many systems that claim to treat the chakras of other people.

Maybe they do maybe they don't.

 

Are they treating people's chakras or other energy centers?

 

Which systems? Where do these systems originate? Are they traditional yogic systems? Are they modern Western hybrid systems?

 

Anybody can say or claim anything. And they might be doing real healing. People can call any energy center anything they want chakras, dan tiens, meridians etc...

However, I am in full agreement with you that any discussion about this stuff should be focused on the phenomenal results not on personal subjective experience.

 

Be aware I am not questioning whether these systems are healing chakras or not. I am trying to bring awareness to our assumptions about the words we use and more importantly, the emotional agendas that we attach to them which affect our ability to objectively examine our beliefs...

Edited August 30, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[dawei]

However, I am in full agreement with you that any discussion about this stuff should be focused on the phenomenal results not on personal subjective experience.

It is true that people can only talk about the level of experience they have practiced or encountered; it is not the stuff of 'book learning' alone.

 

Each level should draw us to another higher level; if one does not want to ascend that is fine; they should at least recognize their intentional decision to stay at the level where they are and hopefully they get the fully measure of that level.

 

Beyond physical and phenomenal is a step closer to the source and which sometimes words cannot describe so easily. There is spirit and light; there is the beyond physical.

 

One way to practice the beyond physical is to progress beyond self and be involved with another's energy. This is my opinion but it is quite logical to realize that the energy one person feels is also felt by others; ergo, you can also feel their energy. This leads to not just feeling another's energy but interacting, combining, directing, guiding their energy... it leads to another world of experience. Closer to the source but only a small step... many steps, if one dares...

[Informer]

 

http://www.exploringinfinity.com/products/opening-the-microcosmic-orbit/

 

Let's see how Kundalini Awakening relates to MCO.

 

The Governor channel begins at the base of the Spine, which can be equivicated to root chakra. The root chakra is the 1st step in the Kundalini Awakening process as well.

 

The next stop in the process is the Navel Chakra, which is at the exact point Ming Men on the above chart. Are you starting to catch on?

 

The solar plexus is the next stop in Kundalini Awakening which on the chart is labeled Chi-chung. What a coincidence that this is directly opposite of the Functional Channel Solar Plexus of the graph?

 

The last step of the Governor channel is the third eye in Kundalini and Cavity of the spirit on the chart. You think this is all a coincidence?

 

Once the "Spirit is seated" or you are "awakened" or displaying "readiness" you can then begin part 2 which is working with the Functional Channel.

 

Easy as pie.

[dawei]

Let's see how Kundalini Awakening relates to MCO.

In another thread I related some experience and someone pointed out this was a Kundalini experience. As I researched that, I found that it was true, although I was in no way following that idea or experience; it arise out of my own energy work.

 

I cannot really comment too much more but to say that different energy practices can reveal another so-called theory. Once experienced, one tends to look to understand what occurred.

[Informer]

.

.

 

Functional (Channel) could be looked at to mean utilization of the chakra's and bringing them forward to later cut free of the attachements that bind it.

 

Setting it free to use the channels.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Informer

[Ish]

Hopefully the sarcasm is in jest...I will assume you are asking because you honestly want my opinion. please understand, I am not attacking the quality or effectiveness of KAP practices, I do however disagree with many of their conclusions about the nature of the energy they stimulate...

 

Why MUST there be Taoist literature about kundalini? Does that mean there MUST be yogic literature about fa jing in martial arts? It is a huge universe and there are many ways to interface with it. I do not agree with that assumption.

 

I also disagree with you that Kundalini is refined Qi. That is not what yogis teach. Yogis are very familair with Qi. They call it prana. If yogis wanted to call kudalini highly refined prana, they would say so. They don't. They do however say that Prana can stimulate Kundalini. The assumption that Kundalini is Prana. This is an oversimplification that is understandable if someone is trying to make the connection between the two solely from a purely toaist perspective...

 

So, you have opened a bigger subject which is...

what defines a true kundalini awakening? Is it solely a personal energy experience? Not according to traditional understandings.

I don't want to open a fight about Glen Morris... I have great respect for his teachings. He and his students have clearly created a very powerful and effective energy practice. But, as I understand it, he had an energy experience from practicing Taoist energy work. He then made the assumption that it was a kundalini experience and began calling his teachings kundalini teachings. It may have been, it may not have been. I don't know. But, I do not necessarily agree with his definition of Kundalini... KAP puts alot of emphasis of their definition of kundalini based on physical energy experiences. They also put alot of emphasis on their energy or Kundalini experiences being connected to enlightenment. So, that puts a huge cloud on any reasonable objective discussions about the actual nature of the energy they are stimulating... As you point out, Morris had an energy experience from practicing MCO and he made the assumption that it was kundalini.... If he had then taken that experience to a yogi to determine if it was kundalini or pranic in nature, I would be interested in that discussion. I am not making any judgements about the quality or nature of his experience. But, from an objective standpoint, I don't know if it was kundalini or not. I am also not making any comparisons about the superiority of Kundalini over Qi phenomena. Many people get very reactive when I point out that they are making blanket assumptions about yogic disciplines from a Taoist perspective because they assume I am making a judgejement on the quality of their experience. In other words, many people want their experience to be kundalini because of the hype that word carries with it and they believe that if their experience was not a kundalini experience, then they assume I am saying that their experience is somehow inferior. I am not... I don't put value judgements on ANY energy experience.

 

I am not arguing against spontaneous kundalini "awakenings". I am sure they happen. But, this term has an assumption that I do not entirely agree with which is... When someone has an intense energy experience that has a powerful effect on their life, it must be kundalini.. right? Not necessarily. This is a modern Western understanding of Kundalini... Kundalini can awaken with ZERO physical effects. The problem is that Qi phenomena and what many people consider to be kundalini awakening can be the same. So, there is no way to know if someone is having a powerful Qi phenomena experience, or a neurological experience and calling it kundalini.

 

There is also the emotional baggage attached to the word Kundalini. Because in recent times Westerners have aggressively sought after "enlightenment" etc... Kundalini has become a catch phrase for enlightenement. So, when someone has an energy experience, they want it to be connected to enlightenment, so they immediately attach it to a Kundalini experience.

 

There is also a huge difference between stimulating kundalini and awkening Her. Awakening means that She has pierced the Knots in the chakras (which means that a person's perception has permanently been altered.) Stimulating kundalini and having an energy experience or feeling the friction in meridians as a result of merely stimulating Her is often interpreted as a kundalini awakening. So, the problem is that people want so badly to have the BEST energy enlightenment experience, so it is very difficult to objectively examine whether or not an experience is truly a permanent awakening or just a temporary stimulation. And foget trying to explore this difference with those who are determined to identify their experience as an awakening or a stimulation.

 

IMO, the best book out there to really explain Kundalini is the Aghora series by Robert Svoboda.... He talks alot about common misconceptions concerning the nature of Kundalini.

 

Now, assuming you are a KAP student and you feel I have somehow attacked the quality and nature of your experience, you are wrong. KAP is clearly a superior practice and I highly reccommend to anyone interested...

 

Anyway, this is just my opinion. I know other have different opinons. I'm not interested in an argument.. But, since you asked, there is my .02

 

Thanks for the informative post, and the last comment was made in jest - no sarcasm .

I'm not a KAP student, so like i said everything in my post was just theory made out of interest.

I guess you have awakened your kundalini? Do you mind making a post about your experience - I appreciate if it's too personal.

 

Best,

Ish

[Lux ferre]

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff,

If you search the archives you will find some pretty lengthy posts I have made regarding the differences between the yogic focus and the Taoist focus.

 

In brief: Here is what I have found....There are different types of Qi, there are different types of prana, but Qi and prana are essentially the same thing. To fully understand the different Qis and pranas is a longer subject that I am not expert in. But they are essentially the same thing.,

 

Kundalini and Qi - not the same thing. Kundalini can be stimualted by Prana- definitely. But it has a very specific purpose.

 

Dan tiens are collection points for Qi. They are also places of transmuting Qi.

Chakras are not collection points, they cannot be meditated upon like Dan tiens. When people try to meditate on chakra points, all they are doing is sending prana to meridians or dan tiens. It may have a powerful effect, but it has vey little effect on the chakra.

 

Chakras can only be opened through changes in personality based on life events or upon changes in one's viewpoint of themselves in connection to the rest of the phenomenal world. This shift in understanding is what awakens kundalini. If there is no change in maturitly level in connection with the person's relationship with other people, themselves and the world, then it is by defintion not kundalini...

 

Chakras are gateways to consciousness enhancement, not energy enhancement...

 

Fiveelementtao,

 

Thanks for the response. I will definitely check out the archives.

 

I would agree with your perspective that "Chakras can only be opened through changes in personality based on life events or upon changes in one's viewpoint of themselves". But, if one perceives "light" in a Chakra, isn't that a form of energy? Do you think it is different (or a different frequency) than Qi/Prana?

 

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I wonder if someone could explain the uses of the "water path" of the MCO, ie., going up the front and down the back.

 

This seems to be more natural for me (most of the time), but I haven't heard much about it.

 

 

thanks