Sky Dancers

[Vmarco]

[Marblehead]

Well, according to the TTC Tao gave birth to One.

 

As far as I know female is the oly sex capable of giving birth so if we want to personify Tao, Tao is Woman.

[Vmarco]

Edited August 29, 2011 by Vmarco

[Aetherous]

In Genesis 2:21, this would be weeks or years after Creation

 

This is assumed. Maybe Eve was created at the end of the 6th "day"...meaning there was never a Lilith.

 

There is no Lilith discussed in Genesis.

 

If we're being honest with ourselves we have to say: who knows. Especially when it comes to any "Sky dancers". And even regarding the sky being feminine and the earth masculine, or vice versa...who knows!!! Of what use is this knowledge?

[Vmarco]

This is assumed. Maybe Eve was created at the end of the 6th "day"...meaning there was never a Lilith.

 

There is no Lilith discussed in Genesis.

 

 

But there are TWO Creation Stories,...and since Abraham came through Samaria and Mesopotamia, who did name Lilith, and the fact that Lilith is mentioned in Jewish stories,...Occam Razor's suggests that the first Biblical creation story was about Lilith.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

[Aetherous]

But there are TWO Creation Stories,...and since Abraham came through Samaria and Mesopotamia, who did name Lilith, and the fact that Lilith is mentioned in Jewish stories,...Occam Razor's suggests that the first Biblical creation story was about Lilith.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

 

I disagree.

 

"Sumeria"? What does Abraham have to do with Lilith?

 

According to your link, the first time Lilith is mentioned anywhere is between 500-700 AD, which is quite late compared to the Old Testament (although later on it also says the word is mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls, dated at about 40-10 BC). The first Jewish source mentioning Lilith was from the 8th-10th century AD.

 

Point is: there is no historical record of any concept of Lilith during the time that the Old Testament was written. None of your stories, such as Lilith leaving Adam, are written of until later in other illegitimate sources. If anyone actually reads the book of Genesis, they will find nothing regarding these ideas.

 

So yeah, this whole Lilith thing is very unlikely...but I suppose it's an interesting thing to explore historically, since the mythology has lasted for quite a while.

[zerostao]

[Seth Ananda]

I disagree.

 

"Sumeria"? What does Abraham have to do with Lilith?

 

According to your link, the first time Lilith is mentioned anywhere is between 500-700 AD, which is quite late compared to the Old Testament (although later on it also says the word is mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls, dated at about 40-10 BC). The first Jewish source mentioning Lilith was from the 8th-10th century AD.

 

Point is: there is no historical record of any concept of Lilith during the time that the Old Testament was written. None of your stories, such as Lilith leaving Adam, are written of until later in other illegitimate sources. If anyone actually reads the book of Genesis, they will find nothing regarding these ideas.

 

So yeah, this whole Lilith thing is very unlikely...but I suppose it's an interesting thing to explore historically, since the mythology has lasted for quite a while.

Nice response. Abraham did come from Sumer {Sumeria} as the old testament puts it, and genesis is attributed to him {although I do not know whether historically that is factual} and on analysis Genesis seems to be an abridged version of the Epic of Gilgamesh, which makes sense considering Abraham's origins but as I recall it has no mention of Lilith either...

[Birch]

"!! Of what use is this knowledge?"

 

Well VMarco has some use for it. As did much (most?) of the Western monotheisms?

Do I have any use for it? No, except maybe to explain some "hows". People's creation stories are important IMO because they also mean to tell people how to live now. Do people need to be told? I don't know. I don't think they do, but that's just my opinion.

[Vmarco]

I disagree.

 

"Sumeria"? What does Abraham have to do with Lilith?

 

So yeah, this whole Lilith thing is very unlikely...but I suppose it's an interesting thing to explore historically, since the mythology has lasted for quite a while.

 

Perhaps you should add a Religious Studies course to your curriculum. The story of Lilith can be traced back to at least 2700BCE Sumeria,...but was probably much older. Many Sumerian stories dove-tail those of Genesis. Abraham spent at least some time in Sumeria. The basic creation stories found in the Bible arose from Sumeria,...a somewhat abridged version of the Epic of Gilgamesh.

 

The Old Testament as we know it was not scribed to written form until the 3rd century CE,...the Old Testament as we know it did not enter the canon of the Bible until the 10th century CE.

 

The Burney Relief, ca. 1950 BCE, depicts the Sky Dancer Lilith (Lilitu).

 

However, as HIS-story reflects the patriarchy of the dominant, much knowledge of the Sky Dancers has been buried. Sky Dancers were prominent in Central Asia up until the Islamic invasions in the 14th Centyry CE, which nearly obliterated Buddhism, and sent feminine gnowledge into terma.

 

You better recheck your his-story. Robert Graves is said to have been a respected historian:

http://www.gnosis.org/lilith.htm

 

New World Encyclopedia places Lilith in 3000BCE Sumer:

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Lilith

 

Another point,...although the Genesis story was attributed to Abraham, the story was orally formed much later during Moses' era or later.

 

V

[Vmarco]

[Non]

I like this thread.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Non

[Aetherous]

V,

 

The story of Lilith can be traced back to at least 2700BCE Sumeria,...but was probably much older. Many Sumerian stories dove-tail those of Genesis. Abraham spent at least some time in Sumeria. The basic creation stories found in the Bible arose from Sumeria,...a somewhat abridged version of the Epic of Gilgamesh.

 

If you can show a Sumerian story which is close to Genesis, talking about the creation of man and woman and all that followed...where Lilith is said to have been created before Eve...which was written BCE...then I'll say you're probably right.

 

Otherwise, you're just making things up. Adding myth onto myth.

 

The Old Testament as we know it was not scribed to written form until the 3rd century CE,...the Old Testament as we know it did not enter the canon of the Bible until the 10th century CE.

 

BCE.

 

The Burney Relief, ca. 1950 BCE, depicts the Sky Dancer Lilith (Lilitu).

 

"However, whether it represents Lilitu, Inanna/Ishtar, or Ereshkigal, is under debate." - http://en.wikipedia....i/Burney_Relief

 

If the figure in the relief is Ishtar, which is most likely, it has a much more positive meaning...

 

However, as HIS-story reflects the patriarchy of the dominant, much knowledge of the Sky Dancers has been buried. Sky Dancers were prominent in Central Asia up until the Islamic invasions in the 14th Centyry CE, which nearly obliterated Buddhism, and sent feminine gnowledge into terma.

 

HIS-story is exactly the case...people connect the dots and create a story based on half truths. For instance, saying that Lilith is a "sky dancer" and was actually the first creation of femininity according to the book of Genesis. I'm not the one doing that!

 

You better recheck your his-story. Robert Graves is said to have been a respected historian:

http://www.gnosis.org/lilith.htm

 

New World Encyclopedia places Lilith in 3000BCE Sumer:

http://www.newworlde...rg/entry/Lilith

 

Interesting...I haven't studied Lilith (not much use!) and was only going off of the wikipedia article you previously linked.

 

Another point,...although the Genesis story was attributed to Abraham, the story was orally formed much later during Moses' era or later.

 

Sure...I'm just trying to keep things truthful here. It's just an unfounded theory that Lilith was created before Eve, in the Genesis story.

 

If you want to just discuss the facts regarding the myth of Lilith...that would be interesting...

[Aetherous]

The Other Female accesses Heart-Mind

 

I think your designations are bogus. Worshipping women or the feminine leads us to heart-mind? I disagree completely! In my opinion, it simply leads us to more useless and unfounded knowledge.

 

Then bringing Lilith, which is often regarded as a demon in mythology, into it...it simply makes no sense. This discussion and its content does not lead us to heart mind in any way. It just leads to more discussion regarding myth...or perhaps it leads to BELIEF...such as the belief that, "the other female accesses heart-mind".

 

None of this has to do with heart-mind. At least not as of yet...

 

If one wishes to understand Tao,...then one must be able to recognize the false as the false. One must be able to recognize the patrifocal indoctrinations of the past few thousand years, to hide the feminine.

 

Learning about how the feminine was hidden throughout history (it wasn't) has nothing to do with the Tao.

 

No one is getting out of this illusion without the feminine,...through the feminine is the Gateless Gate,...the patrifocal only desires to safeguard the skandhas or Aggregates from being understood.

 

A useless designation. Someone could easily turn it around and say, "through the masculine is the Gateless Gate...the matrifocal only desires to safeguard the skandhas..."

 

It's equally meaningless and false.

[Vmarco]

I think your designations are bogus. Worshipping women or the feminine leads us to heart-mind? I disagree completely! In my opinion, it simply leads us to more useless and unfounded knowledge.

 

Learning about how the feminine was hidden throughout history (it wasn't) has nothing to do with the Tao.

 

 

First, nothing I said in this thread is about worshipping women,...if anything, it's quite the contrary.

 

Second,...understanding the feminine has EVERYTHING to do with the Tao. Without understanding the feminine, any attempt to comprenhend, even elementary, the Tao, is futile.

 

I recognized that long ago while pondering on the Heart sutra. The Heart sutra is a prajna text that was most likely written by Taoist Buddhists. It is a dialogue about the character of a Superior Person. A Superior Person understands that Form (Yang)is Empty (Yin), and Empty (Yin) is Form (Yang).

 

What I just mentioned is usually denied by the patriarchial,...which is what the patriarchial does best.

 

However, as I already had a good grasp of the nature of light,...both Undivided Light (light at the so-called speed of light) and Divided Light (the full electrodynamic spectrum), the implication that this Taoist-Buddhist text was pointing to Who's Who in Duality, and how to recognize it, has bore me much fruit.

 

Look at it this way,...Tao says that all phenomena has a yang-yin aspect,...Physicists say that all phenomena is slowed down, crystallized light, with a centripetal-centrafugal aspect,...thus, an inquiry of one will always lead to the other,...only the WHEN you want to know is at issue.

 

If you have no interest in the feminine, then you are not ready to know.

 

Both Tao and Buddhism imply that "wisdom" is inherently feminine.

 

V

Edited August 30, 2011 by Vmarco

[Aetherous]

Second,...understanding the feminine has EVERYTHING to do with the Tao. Without understanding the feminine, any attempt to comprenhend, even elementary, the Tao, is futile.

 

This is just your opinion. "Tao" is wide open to interpretation! And my experience of it has nothing to do with understanding or the feminine.

 

Both Tao and Buddhism imply that "wisdom" is inherently feminine.

 

Well we already know how Buddhists abuse the word. When do Taoists consider wisdom to be feminine?

[Stigweard]

First, nothing I said in this thread is about worshipping women,...if anything, it's quite the contrary.

 

Second,...understanding the feminine has EVERYTHING to do with the Tao. Without understanding the feminine, any attempt to comprenhend, even elementary, the Tao, is futile.

 

I recognized that long ago while pondering on the Heart sutra. The Heart sutra is a prajna text that was most likely written by Taoist Buddhists. It is a dialogue about the character of a Superior Person. A Superior Person understands that Form (Yang)is Empty (Yin), and Empty (Yin) is Form (Yang).

 

What I just mentioned is usually denied by the patriarchial,...which is what the patriarchial does best.

 

However, as I already had a good grasp of the nature of light,...both Undivided Light (light at the so-called speed of light) and Divided Light (the full electrodynamic spectrum), the implication that this Taoist-Buddhist text was pointing to Who's Who in Duality, and how to recognize it, has bore me much fruit.

 

Look at it this way,...Tao says that all phenomena has a yang-yin aspect,...Physicists say that all phenomena is slowed down, crystallized light, with a centripetal-centrafugal aspect,...thus, an inquiry of one will always lead to the other,...only the WHEN you want to know is at issue.

 

If you have no interest in the feminine, then you are not ready to know.

 

Both Tao and Buddhism imply that "wisdom" is inherently feminine.

 

V

I applaud you championing the feminine spirit. It quite honestly and truthfully needs to happen to bring some balance back into human progress.

 

And it is true that Laozi's Daoist philosophy truly honors the feminine principle.

 

I am quite sure though that you can progress your argument without your false associations of Yin and Yang. Now I apologize for the intrusion on this thread's topic, but you have for the second time run away from my discussions on Yin and Yang. I can only wonder why.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/20207-yin-yang/page__view__findpost__p__287241

 

[Marblehead]

I would agree that the Great Mother is (sort of) female,...but I have some problems with the term "woman."

 

Yah, I know. I normally say feminine instead of 'woman' even though giving birth is a pretty Yang experience - lots of action going on.

[Marblehead]

When do Taoists consider wisdom to be feminine?

 

Hi Scotty,

 

I think Chapter 28 of the TTC speaks to this. Henricks' translation:

 

1. When you know the male yet hold on to the female,

2. You'll be the ravine of the country.

3. When you're the ravine of the country,

4. Your constant virtue will not leave.

5. And when your constant virtue doesn't leave,

6. You'll return to the state of the infant.

7. When you know the pure yet hold on to the soiled,

8. You'll be the valley of the country.

9. When you're the valley of the country,

10. Your constant virtue is complete.

11. And when your constant virtue is complete,

12. You'll return to the state of uncarved wood.

13. When you know the white yet hold on to the black,

14. You'll be the model for the country.

15. And when you're the model for the country,

16. Your constant virtue will not go astray.

17. And when your constant virtue does not go astray,

18. You'll return to the condition which has no limit.

19. When uncarved wood is cut up, it's turned into vessels;

20. When the Sage is used, he becomes the Head of Officials.

21. Truly, great carving is done without splitting up.

[Birch]

Ah, I love being told that I am the problem/part of it.

I'm no Eckart Tolle fankid, unfortunately. Yes I know that my conditioned self has a tendency to pop itself out in varying degrees of manifestation when I least expect it, like gopher game at a circus. Am I concerned? Should I be concerned? I dunno, I've given up being other than I am- although I cultivate good breathing habits and try to cultivate better thinking habits. I think the reference made to knowledge was about conditioning. In Taoism, as far as my small experience goes, you drop knowledge of this type in order to uncover the real you. Which, apparently knows more about lots of things than the accumulated knowledge type of "you"

[Marblehead]

Ah, I love being told that I am the problem/part of it.

 

Hehehe. Yeah, you are a part of the problem - you have a life - now deal with it. (Actually, I think you are doing pretty damn well based on what I read from you here on the forum. Keep up the good work!)

[Vmarco]

I dunno, I've given up being other than I am- although I cultivate good breathing habits and try to cultivate better thinking habits.....In Taoism, as far as my small experience goes, you drop knowledge of this type in order to uncover the real you. Which, apparently knows more about lots of things than the accumulated knowledge type of "you"

 

The Letting Go of Who you "think" you are, to be Who you are, is the noblest discernment. To uncover Who you are without realization of the feminine is utter folly.

 

I certainly agree that the dropping of knowledge is a key,...however, the dropping of knowledge that leads to gnowledge is a problem that sustains the unreal, by obscuring the real. In other words, your inability to discern the false as the false, in this case, that understanding the feminine aspect of the Tao in motion is to you, a worthless goal, is an attachment to accumulated beliefs, which keeps the real you from being gnown.

 

Stepping into the fray, can be a valuable vehicle to see if the giving up of being other than you are, is really the giving up of being other than you are, or simply who you think you are tricking the real you that you're really who you are.

 

I love critique,...especially when my posts are critiqued,...although it is also helpful critiquing the messages of others. But then, I assume that everyone on this forum is here, albeit subconscious for most, because they want to understand a faint, primordial sound that won't go away. They hear stories of some who realized the music in the sound, and that music brought joy to the Hearts of those who could hear.

 

And I'm saying, that music is the feminine,...the unfolded, spiral-out, diverging, expansive, centrafugal, exhaling nature of Yin. If the you that you believe you are is only interested in Yang,...the folded, spiral-in, converging, contractive, centripetal, inhaling nature of Form,...so be it.

 

V

Edited August 30, 2011 by Vmarco

[Xiaorong]

I certainly agree that the dropping of knowledge is a key,...however, the dropping of knowledge that leads to gnowledge is a problem that sustains the unreal, by obscuring the real. ...which keeps the real you from being gnown.

 

Are you making some distinction between knowledge and "gnowledge" or is this just a typo? I kinda hope it's the former because that might actually be interesting. The rest of your posts in this thread, while they contain an admirable sentiment about femininity, are essentially baseless from a Taoism perspective. Did you come to Taoism from another tradition?

 

X

Edited August 30, 2011 by Xiaorong

[thelerner]

If you cannot see the use of this information, then you are obviously part of the problem, not the solution.

 

If you (K) have no use for this thread,...then in truth, do you really have any use for any thread within this whole forum? This thread is not about Western Monotheism,...but about the Other Female. The Other Female accesses Heart-Mind, and a fuller understanding the T’ai chi T’u.

 

V

 

I don't have any use for this thread either. Yet startlingly I have use for this forum.

 

I think its iffy at best to draw conclusions from biblical sources. Your going further then that with Lilith who in Judiasm is more of folk story character. You can say there's traces of her much deeper, but then you may be going for generic demoness figures and putting her name on them. I'm sure every religion has versions of male and female boogie men.

 

I don't think the Lilith myth is an ideal point of reference for looking into the whole male/female yin/yang continuum.

 

But hey, its your cup of mixed metaphor. I wouldn't even comment if you didn't jump to negativity so quickly.

Edited August 30, 2011 by thelerner

[Jetsun]

The Letting Go of Who you "think" you are, to be Who you are, is the noblest discernment. To uncover Who you are without realization of the feminine is utter folly.

 

I think if you start letting go of who you think you are then your feminine nature will be uncovered naturally, as well as your masculine, you won't have much say in the matter whether you realise it or not it will emerge from the vacuum left when you let go of your self images.

 

And I'm saying, that music is the feminine,...the unfolded, spiral-out, diverging, expansive, centrafugal, exhaling nature of Yin. If the you that you believe you are is only interested in Yang,...the folded, spiral-in, converging, contractive, centripetal, inhaling nature of Form,...so be it.

 

V

 

From my perspective the music is the interplay between masculine and feminine, so even if you are only interested in the masculine nature of form when you take it to the extreme it reverts back to the feminine anyway. Also the points of dark and light within the Tao symbol shows that there is no such thing as pure Yin or pure Yang so i'm not even sure it is possible to be only interested in the masculine nature of things as it always has a feminine point within it's centre and reverts back to the feminine anyway, so it's not something you can avoid on the path even if you want to.