If I've gone crazy, I never want to be sane.

[Birch]

Nothing is ours. We are just the caretakers for a little while.

Yes, Mr MH, agreed. And we don't seem (to me) to be doing a really great job of the caretaking. IMO. Although IME most folks I know are doing either the best they can or the best they've been told they can.

So what do the bums reckon can be done about the latter. The former is taken care of:-)

[konchog uma]

If you say so. Hehehe.

 

(Yes, I know that some people can spin more than others can. Something to do with the amount of fluid in the inner ear and brain.)

 

(But then, I suppose that training can expand the limits.)

 

for those that can not spin like the others, there are always sharpie markers to huff! you will feel just like you were a sufi spinning in the desert! bonus: then you can write about your experiences! double bonus: you'll need white-out if you make a mistake!

 

you can practice in your favorite bathroom stall and journal your progress on the walls! oh the joys of spiritual progress

[Marblehead]

Yes, Mr MH, agreed. And we don't seem (to me) to be doing a really great job of the caretaking. IMO. Although IME most folks I know are doing either the best they can or the best they've been told they can.

So what do the bums reckon can be done about the latter. The former is taken care of:-)

 

Yes, there are many people who do the best they can. And these people truely care.

 

And there are those who would or could do better if they became more aware. I don't think it would be right to force it on them but if they were made aware then they could make their own choices.

 

And then there are those who just don't care. Bottom line profit is all they care about. Or maybe they just don't want to take that extra effort.

 

Yes, we can talk about taking care of the planet and all the other life forms. We can do that here. The NA thread the Zerostao started will be valuable in that regard because nearly all North American NAs had and still have a strong connection with Earth and all its manifestations.

[Marblehead]

WoW! We sure took Aaron's thread off topic, didn't we?

 

My apologies Aaron.

[Birch]

"And there are those who would or could do better if they became more aware. I don't think it would be right to force it on them but if they were made aware then they could make their own choices."

 

Well, it's a tough card Mr MH. Since what the "bottom line" folks are doing is plain ole deception IMO/IME. How would a Taoist figure that one out?

[Birch]

Oh crap. Sorry Aaron!

[Marblehead]

Oh crap. Sorry Aaron!

 

Wait! Let's look at this. I think this can be tied back in to Aarons opening post.

 

Your last post: "... Since what the "bottom line" folks are doing is plain ole deception IMO/IME. How would a Taoist figure that one out?"

 

To your statement; Yes, Aaron spoke to this:

 

"Currently I am meditating in an attempt to find the source of emotion and thought. I thought I had found it before, but now I realize that I had found what I had wanted to find, that the real source is deeper within and it is not within me at all, at least not my body, but rather it stems from something much deeper in the cosmos, mind, source, whatever you want to call it."

 

Yes, the wealthy practice deception of the 'common people' but we 'common people' also practice self-deception. We believe the deceivers and then we deceive ourselves by believing the lies. We need to look deeper than just our own self interest and ego gratification.

 

 

To your question:

 

I have to be careful here so that I am not hypocritical in what I say. My best guy friend, Don, and I talk about politics and the economy a lot. I confess that I am very critical about the politicians and the wealty with there extreme policies of self-interest and how hard they try to protect themselves while screwing the working middle class in America.

 

I have stated a number of times in the past that the US is becoming a Fascist State but last week I actually made the claim that we already are a Fascist State.

 

Yes, I am very disappointed with this. This is not "my" America.

 

However, as long as the deceived majority accepts the standards of the wealthy and the politicians the Taoist realizes that this is the way it is going to be and we must accept it. Now, I don't mean that we need become a part of it - we just need to recognize what reality is and do our best to continue to live according to the guidance of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

 

Aaron said:

 

"My understanding of the world on a fundamental level is changing, but when I try to explain it to my family and friends, they look at me like I'm crazy."

 

Yes, people will look at us like we are crazy. But remember, the true Taoist is beyond praise and blame.

[Aaron]

Freedom doesn't exist. It's an abstract concept meant to allow us some degree of safety and hope. The reality is that choices have nothing to do with freedom. So long as you search for freedom you will find no peace. Give yourself over to what really is and isn't and you will find peace.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

Freedom doesn't exist. It's an abstract concept meant to allow us some degree of safety and hope. The reality is that choices have nothing to do with freedom. So long as you search for freedom you will find no peace. Give yourself over to what really is and isn't and you will find peace.

 

Aaron

 

Hehehe.

 

My Dear Aaron, I have freedom. It truely does exist within each of us. Thing is, there is no security in freedom so most people get scared off from finding it before they even get close.

 

Oh, sure, I am not free to not pay my income and property taxes. Governments have taken that freedom away from us. But I have the freedom to wait until the last day to pay before getting a penalty.

 

Destiny sucks.

 

Cause and effect sometimes suck.

 

Freedom is liberating.

 

But, am I free to fly without some means of support? No. But I can fly in my imagination.

 

And I am free to pee my pants if I want to and nobody would be able to do anything about it.

[Aaron]

Hehehe.

 

My Dear Aaron, I have freedom. It truely does exist within each of us. Thing is, there is no security in freedom so most people get scared off from finding it before they even get close.

 

Oh, sure, I am not free to not pay my income and property taxes. Governments have taken that freedom away from us. But I have the freedom to wait until the last day to pay before getting a penalty.

 

Destiny sucks.

 

Cause and effect sometimes suck.

 

Freedom is liberating.

 

But, am I free to fly without some means of support? No. But I can fly in my imagination.

 

And I am free to pee my pants if I want to and nobody would be able to do anything about it.

 

Hello Marblehead,

 

If one has choices, that doesn't mean he is free, only that he has choices. The fact that we all die (our physical being) is the first answer to this question. Every time we encounter an action there are choices to make, but there aren't infinite choices, rather limited choices. The fact that choices are limited means that there is not real freedom involved. Now if one is fixated on the notion of freedom bringing them control over their lives, then this may seem frightening, but if one instead understands that there are limited choices and the important thing is to make the right choices, then freedom becomes an outdated concept and instead they begin to see the beauty that exists within the nature of things.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

Hello Marblehead,

 

If one has choices, that doesn't mean he is free, only that he has choices. The fact that we all die (our physical being) is the first answer to this question. Every time we encounter an action there are choices to make, but there aren't infinite choices, rather limited choices. The fact that choices are limited means that there is not real freedom involved. Now if one is fixated on the notion of freedom bringing them control over their lives, then this may seem frightening, but if one instead understands that there are limited choices and the important thing is to make the right choices, then freedom becomes an outdated concept and instead they begin to see the beauty that exists within the nature of things.

 

Aaron

 

Well, gee!!! How can I disagree with that?

 

Yes, there are limits. No doubt about that. But oftentimes the limits break down when we challenge them. No, not all, and not always. But some sometimes.

 

Indeed, even our choices are limited. Hey, sometimes we have no choice - we just do what needs be done - that is all.

 

Yeah, well, we all are going to die. Just the way life is. No need getting all shook up about it. (Hehehe. That's easy for me to say because I'm not dying right now. Well, I am in a way but you know what I mean.)

[Aaron]

Well, gee!!! How can I disagree with that?

 

Yes, there are limits. No doubt about that. But oftentimes the limits break down when we challenge them. No, not all, and not always. But some sometimes.

 

Indeed, even our choices are limited. Hey, sometimes we have no choice - we just do what needs be done - that is all.

 

Yeah, well, we all are going to die. Just the way life is. No need getting all shook up about it. (Hehehe. That's easy for me to say because I'm not dying right now. Well, I am in a way but you know what I mean.)

 

 

Hello Marblehead,

 

It doesn't matter really. The important thing is what you consider important. Be like the water running to the ocean. When you return, you will realize that is where you came from to begin with.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

Be like the water running to the ocean.

 

Aaron

 

I be like that every time I haff ta go pee pee.

[konchog uma]

Hello Marblehead,

 

If one has choices, that doesn't mean he is free, only that he has choices. The fact that we all die (our physical being) is the first answer to this question. Every time we encounter an action there are choices to make, but there aren't infinite choices, rather limited choices. The fact that choices are limited means that there is not real freedom involved. Now if one is fixated on the notion of freedom bringing them control over their lives, then this may seem frightening, but if one instead understands that there are limited choices and the important thing is to make the right choices, then freedom becomes an outdated concept and instead they begin to see the beauty that exists within the nature of things.

 

Aaron

 

freedom isnt choices, i agree, but i think freedom exists, even though its often misunderstood. Hahah in USofA they hype freedom but really they just take your freedom away if you don't follow the rules

 

to me real freedom is a free flow of energy. When my energies were constricted, i thought and acted in a way that wasn't free, and in many ways was a slave to my lower nature. But as i heal and my energies become loose and expansive, i experience what i can only call freedom!

 

to be fair, i hear where you are coming from, and i am a believer in cause and effect. I had a conversation last week with someone who had a dream that 16 years later was a deja vu for them. So what does that say about the flow of time? I also believe in the validity of astrology, although i would not describe myself as a determinist.

 

i would describe reality as being paradoxically free-willed and fated in the same instant. And i would describe that as just a way of saying things, a koan to push the mind into a non-dual way of looking at things. another way to say it would be that our freedom is destined, and that accepting our destinies is freedom. There are boundaries and constraints but i don't think that means freedom is a total myth. i just think that the freedom that people imagine, like "freedom to do whatever i want without consequenses" is bullshit. But the more we accept our boundaries and limits, the more freedom we experience! So there is a paradox there that i think freedom is part of...

 

just my 2 cents

[tulku]

Freedom doesn't exist. It's an abstract concept meant to allow us some degree of safety and hope. The reality is that choices have nothing to do with freedom. So long as you search for freedom you will find no peace. Give yourself over to what really is and isn't and you will find peace.

 

Aaron

 

freedom does exist and so does peace

 

only when one finds enlightenment, then he will find freedom and peace for there can be no freedom and no peace in the material world

 

or are you gonna say the Creator does not exist?

Edited September 6, 2011 by tulku

[tulku]

freedom isnt choices, i agree, but i think freedom exists, even though its often misunderstood. Hahah in USofA they hype freedom but really they just take your freedom away if you don't follow the rules

 

to me real freedom is a free flow of energy. When my energies were constricted, i thought and acted in a way that wasn't free, and in many ways was a slave to my lower nature. But as i heal and my energies become loose and expansive, i experience what i can only call freedom!

 

to be fair, i hear where you are coming from, and i am a believer in cause and effect. I had a conversation last week with someone who had a dream that 16 years later was a deja vu for them. So what does that say about the flow of time? I also believe in the validity of astrology, although i would not describe myself as a determinist.

 

i would describe reality as being paradoxically free-willed and fated in the same instant. And i would describe that as just a way of saying things, a koan to push the mind into a non-dual way of looking at things. another way to say it would be that our freedom is destined, and that accepting our destinies is freedom. There are boundaries and constraints but i don't think that means freedom is a total myth. i just think that the freedom that people imagine, like "freedom to do whatever i want without consequenses" is bullshit. But the more we accept our boundaries and limits, the more freedom we experience! So there is a paradox there that i think freedom is part of...

 

just my 2 cents

 

freedom true freedom only exists when your own mind, your own consciousness stands apart from the sea of mass consciousness driving you to be the same as them

[Aaron]

freedom does exist and so does peace

 

only when one finds enlightenment, then he will find freedom and peace for there can be no freedom and no peace in the material world

 

or are you gonna say the Creator does not exist?

 

I don't believe the creator exists, at least not a creator in the fashion of God, but there is a source that we come from and will return to, I have experienced it and know this, but there is no way for me to prove to you that this is true, so I wont try. Freedom is a concept, in reality there is only action, the motion of the universe, the only freedom we have is to choose which direction we take, but much as the twig floats along the river, we too float through time, our choices are dictated, there is no freedom there, only choice. When one ceases to search for freedom and instead gives themselves over to the universe, reality, God, whatever you wish to call it, then they will awaken to true freedom, which does not stem from doing what you will, but doing what is right. Oftentimes it is difficult to make a decision, because we see the world in black and white, good and bad, vice and piety, but in reality making that choice is as easy as seeing what is beneficial and what isn't.

 

When you speak to me, you speak to one who has already reached where you wish to go. It would be wise for you to listen rather than tell me how it is, because I know how it is. I will be more than willing to debate this with any monk and I'm sure they will find that nothing I say can be disproved. You have come to a firm sense of faith and belief and that faith and belief is what holds you back from the very thing you seek.

 

Quit judging others and instead worry about what you are doing. Quit telling others what they need to do and do what you know needs to be done. If you wish to be celibate and pious, then be celibate and pious, but do not expect others to be the same, at least not without showing them through your own actions the benefits of being such. The problem is when they look at you, they see nothing that is worth achieving. Take that to heart, not as an insult, but as a piece of wisdom. Hammer your beliefs into someone and they may come to believe, but when things get shaky they will return to what they before. Show someone how to live a life in accord with the universe and they will learn to live the way they should and they will never return to the place they came from.

 

Aaron

[suninmyeyes]

freedom true freedom only exists when your own mind, your own consciousness stands apart from the sea of mass consciousness driving you to be the same as them

Freedom is when understanding comes that there is connection between all of us and there is no way you can ever stand apart, becouse there is noone to do so.

[Marblehead]

freedom does exist and so does peace

 

only when one finds enlightenment, then he will find freedom and peace for there can be no freedom and no peace in the material world

 

or are you gonna say the Creator does not exist?

 

Your first sentence caused me good feelings.

 

Then you messed it all up!

 

What's with this enlightenment? What the hell is enlightenment? Why do I need it in order to have peace and freedom?

 

I think the word "enlightenment" is greatly overrated.

 

Which Creator doesn't exist? There are so many of them depending on who is telling the story.

[Marblehead]

freedom true freedom only exists when your own mind, your own consciousness stands apart from the sea of mass consciousness driving you to be the same as them

 

Okay. We have another agreement. (Those are rare. Hehehe.)

 

But be careful with that "stands apart" concept. It can be very misleading.

[Marblehead]

Freedom is when understanding comes that there is connection between all of us and there is no way you can ever stand apart, becouse there is noone to do so.

 

Hehehe. Kinda' what I just point to but you talked about it whereas I only pointed.

[konchog uma]

 

I think the word "enlightenment" is greatly overrated.

 

 

hear hear

 

bothersome concept

[Aaron]

So I'm thinking many people here probably think I've gone crazy and perhaps that's a good thing. I see sanity and it really has no appeal to me anymore.

 

Aaron

[Informer]

So I'm thinking many people here probably think I've gone crazy and perhaps that's a good thing. I see sanity and it really has no appeal to me anymore.

 

Aaron

 

If you are caring and thinking about what people are thinking about you then you probably will go crazy!

 

How can you really know what someone is thinking?

 

Thinking is over-rated imo

 

[Aaron]

If you are caring and thinking about what people are thinking about you then you probably will go crazy!

 

How can you really know what someone is thinking?

 

Thinking is over-rated imo

 

 

 

True dat. I think I'm pointing to the idea that normal doesn't exist. So if I am crazy it is because I am not normal, nor is anyone else normal, but I see that I am not normal and I am willing to say I am not normal, that you are not normal, that none of this is normal, and they say, well that's just crazy talk!

 

I laugh when I think about it.

 

Aaron