[TTC Study] Chapter 65 of the Tao Teh Ching

[ChiDragon]

You guys keep on. Y'all have already answered my question. No, I'm not going to tell you what my question was nor am I going to tell you the answer. Hehehe.

 

That was a good scholastic attitude by showing the subtlety of understanding about something to its refinement in silence.

Edited August 31, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Sorry, there was only male waitress at the time...

Is this your second attempt to claim homophobe status???

 

You don't seem to follow your own advice:

 

A sage treats all people like straw dogs(Chapter 5).

Don't you know about LaoTze's Wu Wei concept...???

Where have you been...???

 

Gender would not matter in such cases... unless you think it is "unnatural"...

[lienshan]

... unless you think it is "unnatural"...

Is "zi ran" equal to my own personal definition of the term?

Is "natural" what I think is "natural"? That'll say nature is a subjective matter?

 

 

故以知(之)國

知國之贼也

6. 故 以 智 治 國,

7. 國 之 賊。

Classical chinese language became Han chinese language and the Han scolars had to make changes in order to make Tao Teh Ching readable in the new language. That's why they inserted 治 (to rule) and omitted one of the 知 (to know). One can rule a 國 (the nation, the people)(subjective) and one cannot rule a 國 (the country, the land)(objective).

 

Rethorical questions were in Classical chinese language made by reverting the subject and the predicate of a sentence. The two original sentences were two rethorical questions, while the two sentences of Received version are not reversed! That's why (之)國 is equal to 國 (the objective meaning) and 知國 is equal to 治 國 (the subjective meaning).

[ChiDragon]

Is this your second attempt to claim homophobe status???

 

You don't seem to follow your own advice:

 

 

 

Gender would not matter in such cases... unless you think it is "unnatural"...

 

You took everything out of context. Are you still into the old thread...??? Please let it go.

Edited September 1, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Jeff]

Heard a story that might help the discussion...

 

Buddha, Confucius, and Lao Zi decide to get out of the hot sun and go into a bar to talk. A beautiful waitress comes and offers them all free drinks. Buddha declines stating that it is a distraction and wrong and sits quietly. Confucius says it is rude not to take the drink. He takes a little taste and then spends the rest of the day trying to comment about the drink to everyone in the room and never finishes the drink. Lao Zi takes the drink and chugs it. Asks for more and gets drunk while leading everyone in the bar in song.

 

Hope that helps to explain the difference to everyone...

 

Interesting comments in the thread... Anyone want to take a shot at explaining the above story? It is actually similar to Chapter 65.

 

[dawei]

These two lines are to me the most difficult to understand:

 

 

Because how is it possible to rule a nation that the ruler doesn't know?

I don't see anything difficult in the lines really.

 

How can one act in wu-wei; preceive without looking; hear without listening; grasp without touching... but now one can't rule without knowing?

 

I am more bothered by the opening two lines since 'Ming' is almost always used in a positive sense in the DDJ but here in a more negative sense.

 

 

Only Goowday has a non-traditional take which gets me thinking more in another direction.

 

65 (mawangdui)

 

故曰:

 

为道者, 非以明民也, 将以愚之也.

 

民之难治也, 以其知也.

故以知知邦, 邦之贼也;

以不知知邦 ,邦之德也.

......

 

 

So it can say:

 

As a taoist,The ruler don't think he is clear than people,and going to foolish them.

 

The people hard to be ruled,Cause of the ruler's know.

 

So with his know to know the nation,It will be the thievery of the nation;

 

With his not know to know the nation, It will be the DE of the nation.

 

......

Just compare Chapter 33 where 'knowing' , 'clever' and 'englightened' are also used.

[dawei]

You took everything out of context. Are you still into the old thread...??? Please let it go.

If you make a habit of making same-sex gender jokes, then I'll call BS on it and report it... if you can control it, then I'll let it go.

[dawei]

ok. Here is a first try to convey what I see in the opening and throughout. I don't think the traditional opening about enlightening or stupefying others is the point; And I don't think that it is that people are difficult to rule but the disaster in ruling lies with the ruler!

 

Chapter 65:

Of old, those who followed the Way

Do so not for the purpose of being enlightened (1)

But to nourish simplicity (2)(5)

The disaster in ruling people is when there is too much shrewdness (1)

Consequently, if one rules according to shrewdness the country is robbed [of opportunity and benefit].

When one rules without shrewdness the country is bestowed [of opportunity and benefit].

To know these two sides is to study standard movements (3)

The common knowledge of studying standard movements is called Xuan De (Virtue of Heaven, or Original Power) (4)(5)

Xuan De is profound and far-reaching.

It gives all things its opposite effect and after that brings about Da Shun (Great Harmony).(5)

 

Comments:

(1) These two words are compared in the opening of Chapter 33. Note that I leave the 'shrewdness' ambiguous as it could be people OR the ruler... but the next line shows that I let it go where it appears to be going; it is the ruler.

 

(2) I choose ‘simplicity’ since it conveys the meaning although ‘stupidity’ is a more direct translation, as in Zhuang Zi: "But that stupidity is akin to the Dao; you may with it convey the Dao in your person, and have it (ever) with you." – Legge. Also, I don’t see this as directed to other people (make others stupefied) but the person of old in relation to themselves (same idea in the ZZ quote).

 

(3) The word here is “Shi” and is also a cosmograph; this was discussed in Two treads on Tai Yi Sheng Shui. This was the most ancient manner of studying the movement of the heavens by watching the big dipper rotate around the North Pole Star (Tai Yi). Compare usage in Chapter 22 and 28 of the word.

 

(4) Xuan De was discussed in the “De” thread. I had mentioned how Xuan was substitute with the word Original and Wang Bi does that here. It is not dark or mysterious, it is ‘original virtue or power’. This is one of the few places I would not mind to use the word virtue as in The “Virtue of Heaven” since it is implicit we are not talking human virtue at all.

 

(5) These three words occur together in a Zhuang Zi passage in which ‘Stupidity’ is called ‘Xuan De’ and Da Shun. ZZ: “…might seem to indicate stupidity or darkness, but it is what we call the 'mysterious quality' (existing at the beginning); it is the same as the Grand Submission (to the Natural Course)” -- Legge

Edited September 1, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

Sure. I think that is a valid translation. It does hit on the concepts that I think are being presented by Lao Tzu.

[ion]

It seems that this passage is astating that if the goal is peace and harmony it is more effective to unify the people in mind and purpose rather then pit themselves against eachother by way of a competitive culltural environment.

 

Likewise-

 

If the people are in a state of disharmony, it is more effective to govern in an indirct way that causes people to unite that does not involve instigating idealism. Idealism leads to fractions, fraction leads to division. If you put universal principles to work in your own life instead of preaching them, the people will be brought to peace. If you preach about principles and idealism you set a bunch of thought process's off and all sorts of contriving divides the whole.

 

Nations that use idealism and enforce a competitive social environment like the U.S. require wars and catastrophe to unite its inherently divided people.

[Marblehead]

Nations that use idealism and enforce a competitive social environment like the U.S. require wars and catastrophe to unite its inherently divided people.

 

That hit a nerve for me.

 

Idealism in government. How obscene! What ever happened to functionality? Sadly, I think it is the people themselves. Everyone wants everything and they want it NOW!