Tai ji and MMA

[LBDaoist]

I think that these conversations will always go in circles because they will never be proven. Anyone with a very high level of kung fu expertise is not going to go into an MMA ring where their options are severely limited. A true kung fu martial artist who has trained both the internal and external to the point where they are deadly is also going to respect themselves and what they have. They will be smart enough to not put themselves in a situation where they might get seriously injured.

 

Everything I have ever been told is, "Avoid a fight whenever you can. But if it comes down to it, you give it 110% until your opponent is in no position to threaten you ever again."

 

That does not mesh with the MMA mentality. Those guys are trying to make a career out of it. They are trying to become a "champion". Why would a person who has attained high martial and spiritual abilities throw it away for a couple thousand or tens of thousands of dollars? If you really value your life and your health, why would you ever compromise them?

 

Why would someone who has trained their hands to pulverize bone put on a pair of padded gloves? Why would someone who has trained to strike at the eyes and the throat put themselves in a situation where they are not allowed to do that?

 

The reality is that conflict is ugly. Fights are ugly. Both people get hurt and injured. Nobody really wins. The smart person avoids the situation. Only an idiot goes into a ring with something to prove.

[orb]

I think that these conversations will always go in circles because they will never be proven. Anyone with a very high level of kung fu expertise is not going to go into an MMA ring where their options are severely limited. A true kung fu martial artist who has trained both the internal and external to the point where they are deadly is also going to respect themselves and what they have. They will be smart enough to not put themselves in a situation where they might get seriously injured.

 

Everything I have ever been told is, "Avoid a fight whenever you can. But if it comes down to it, you give it 110% until your opponent is in no position to threaten you ever again."

 

That does not mesh with the MMA mentality. Those guys are trying to make a career out of it. They are trying to become a "champion". Why would a person who has attained high martial and spiritual abilities throw it away for a couple thousand or tens of thousands of dollars? If you really value your life and your health, why would you ever compromise them?

 

Why would someone who has trained their hands to pulverize bone put on a pair of padded gloves? Why would someone who has trained to strike at the eyes and the throat put themselves in a situation where they are not allowed to do that?

 

The reality is that conflict is ugly. Fights are ugly. Both people get hurt and injured. Nobody really wins. The smart person avoids the situation. Only an idiot goes into a ring with something to prove.

 

 

I never understood this philosophy. So the guy is a master but he can't control his energy to the point that he could accidentaly kill the opponent. It just sounds like a cheap lie.

Since you are a "Master" and a "Hi level one" you should be able to control that energy.

Why can't u just hurt the opponent to the point where he gives up.

I would love to get hurt by a Hi level master. It's just nobody offers that.

Then they would also use the karma excuse ............ I mean any excuse just not to do a simple demo that can be filmed.

[Prince...]

 

So just saying: How's a kung fu or tai chi or Jeet Kune Do or Karate master going to defend himself against take downs, leg locks, arm bars or even a body build up through western style dieting and fitness regimes? Gonna be tough and seemingly impossible at the highest levels.

 

How are they going to build a body up through western style dieting and fitness regimes? Well, I am a personal trainer. So if I ever teach students interested in competitions, they will be doing the same fitness regimes that MMA fighters are doing-- if not better. I'm HKC certified and training & saving money for RKC. I am studying for NSCA-CSCS. When it is all said and done, I will be qualified to train professional athletes anywhere in the world.

 

Not every traditional kungfu/internal MA school trains the same. In my school, we often do push hands looking to get into a clinch and throw the other person. Our Taiji has a strong Shui Jiao influence. We also do Sanda/SanShou. William CC Chen has produced a number of fighters, namely his son Max Chen and his daughter. I've taken lessons at an MMA school that is teaching Sanshou in place of Muay Thai because Sanshou includes takedowns so that the BJJ guys (this is mostly a BJJ school) can roll right into their ground game.

 

Isn't Cung Le a traditional kungfu guy? Isn't GSP a traditional karate guy? They seem to be doing well where they are.

 

As for the mixing kundalini, MCO, and all that other stuff with zhan zhuang-- my teacher would say,"sounds like a definite way to fuck yourself up." Personally, I would just refer a person to Santiago Dobles or Tao Semko to fix them...after they fuck their self up.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Prince...

[FixXxer1846]

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Edited June 15, 2012 by FixXxer1845

[gendao]

Standup of Ninjutsu sucks... so they never prove their system, hiding behind Vortex's argument that it is "too deadly" for competition.

 

Extremely simple system that can be taught to 12 year olds in 10 minutes, including the MCO (which certainly works from any position)...

Actually, that was LBDaoist's argument, not mine.

 

I personally believe that external kata-based kung fu & karate are often impractical and thus will not overcome size & speed advantages. The question here was if IMA can beat MMA? Which I believe is possible as I believe qi can beat size & speed.

 

However, "simply" rooting and opening your MCO are significant milestones in neidan/IMA - that are in reality very difficult to achieve alone. But which IMA is worthless without that type of internal development. So, the number of legit IMA masters are verrryy few and far between. In fact, most people of that caliber are more likely to go into healing or purely spiritual pursuits than the ego-battle world of ringfighting.

Edited September 20, 2011 by vortex

[Protector]

I think the world of martial arts is just becoming too politically correct, in the past people would freely travels and mix styles and make their new ones but now everyone clings to old authentic pure traditions and criticize similar moves in different styles. Poor old Tai-Chi masters are not allowed to kick above hip level

 

Anyway, allow me to ask a dumb question, how do you join all that MMA stuff, I have no idea how the tournament stuff works

 

edit:whoop, spelling

Edited September 20, 2011 by Sinfest

[FixXxer1846]

In fact, most people of that caliber are more likely to go into healing or purely spiritual pursuits than the ego-battle world of ringfighting.

 

That's true. I'm about the only person whose comfortable studying both ends of the spectrum. Although, I definitely don't have the drive and fighter instinct necessary to make it anywhere close to the top of the MMA/martial arts game. Too laid back. Don't care much for a world title. Money is nice though. Gives freedom.

Edited June 15, 2012 by FixXxer1845

[ChiDragon]

I think the world of martial arts is just becoming too politically correct, in the past people would freely travels and mix styles and make their new ones but now everyone clings to old authentic pure traditions and criticize similar moves in different styles. Poor old Tai-Chi masters are not allowed to kick above hip level

 

Anyway, allow me to ask a dumb question, how do you join all that MMA stuff, I have no idea how the tournament stuff works

 

edit:whoop, spelling

 

Good question though. First, you put a pair of glove on to cripple all the styles of Kung Fu...

[LBDaoist]

I never understood this philosophy. So the guy is a master but he can't control his energy to the point that he could accidentaly kill the opponent. It just sounds like a cheap lie.

Since you are a "Master" and a "Hi level one" you should be able to control that energy.

Why can't u just hurt the opponent to the point where he gives up.

I would love to get hurt by a Hi level master. It's just nobody offers that.

Then they would also use the karma excuse ............ I mean any excuse just not to do a simple demo that can be filmed.

 

 

Anyone who has truly mastered martial arts (no matter what the style) will understand that in any confrontation, you will get hurt. No matter how good you might be, the potential to get hurt is there. Now if you value your life and are serious about training to protect yourself, why would you put yourself in a situation where you could get hurt?

 

If you are going to be in a dangerous situation, you want to be able to protect yourself with all of your tools. I have trained with guys who have hardened their palms to the point where they can crack coconuts. Do you think the soft spot on the top of the head is thicker than a coconut shell? How about where the spine goes into the base of the skull?

 

MMA is a sport. MMA guys can defend themselves. But you cannot compare a sport with rules, with life or death, no holds barred combat.

 

In MMA if a guy shoots for your legs and tries to take you down, you have to have some counters to work your way out of it within the limits of the rules. In real life if someone is going to put their head down and go for your legs, they are opening themselves up to a world of hurt. Do you know how much force it takes to shatter a temple? Do you know how easy it is to generate that force?

 

Last I checked, you can't fish hook your opponent in MMA. Why is that? Last I checked, you aren't allowed to gouge eyes out. Why is that?

 

Real fights are ugly things. Wind pipes get collapsed. Eyes get taken out. Bones are broken. Watch some high level wing chun some time. Those strikes are fast, and all it takes is a split second to strike at the wind pipe or carotid artery and that's that... a life is snuffed out.

 

That is not something you joke about. You don't play around with life like that. It is too precious.

 

It has nothing to do with 'tai chi' or 'kung fu' versus 'mma' or 'random art'. Some people can kill with their hands if they have trained long enough and are willing to do it.

 

Once a person has seen how easy it is to really hurt someone else, even by accident, they usually get over it. If they don't, they have serious psychotic issues and need to be locked away from the rest of society.

[Yuen Biao]

Diego Sanchez is another pro-fighter who seems to have embraced a more traditional focus; I have seen some videos of him training in Taijiquan. Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida, B.J Penn, Jon Jones, Kenny Florian and others have also like Diego spoken about meditation and Yoga as part of their regime so maybe they are also interested in Taiji too? It certainly wouldn't surprise me.

 

From my expereince Taiji is a holistic art and therefore has the answers to any technique at its highest level. When I began learning the art I can remember at the very beginning we would focus on trying to move the balance from each other and attack the legs as they do with the 'shoot' in MMA or catch-wrestling. It's to the benefit of the art that you should be prepared for these single or double leg attacks. This is the purpose of Taiji, to control the balance of the opponent so as a proponent og the style one should be always in control.

 

For those who doubt the effectivity of Taijiquan you only sound naive. But alas the focus is slightly different; MMA fighters are indeed paid to fight and put on a show. In contrast the Taijiquan practitioner is not paid and utilises deflection and yielding which is hardly that entertaining to the masses who watch a sport such as the UFC.

 

The two are chalk and cheese to me. I'm not biased at all as my background is in Judo, JKD and cross-training of techniques but Taijiquan is the epitome of higher martial arts and represents every technique because 'it' can blend with any attack. I have tried both double and single leg attacks on several Taiji Masters when studying with them in Beijing, I ended up face first or on my back every single time. This attack is easily pre-empted and obvious to a Taiji or internal stylist.

[Machin Shin]

When I was training with Bob (the old man in the video) in the early 90's we would discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the guys in the MMA. We would do our training and on the weekend watch the UFC fights. Bob Cook sr. would have his son, Bob Cook jr. come out and train with us once a summer. Over the past couple years Bob Cook Jr. has trained some of the current champions of the MMA. Recently Cain Valesquez and in 2006 B.J. Penn.

 

It's time to watch how these cage sports affect humanities aggressive nature.

 

Are the people that watch these fights pacified and less likely to act violently?

 

Do these gladiators create a smarter thug?

[gendao]

Here's an interesting perspective from Shane Mosley on Manny Pacquiao:

"Pacquiao has some pretty good punching power. He has some different hitting power. He's not physically strong, but he hits pretty good, like he has a good snap or something. He's got something in his hands where he just, pop, and you can wobble. He can hurt you...I don't know how he throws his punches, but he does something where when he lands, it has a different impact. I mean, I get hit by, even now, I get hit by bigger guys all the time and there's no dazing, I don't wobble, I don't do any of that stuff. I don't feel like I'm getting ready to wobble or anything.

 

Pacquiao threw more rapid punches, but Mayweather was faster. I don't know how he throws his punches, but he does something where when he lands, it has a different impact. I mean, I get hit by, even now, I get hit by bigger guys all the time and there's no dazing, I don't wobble, I don't do any of that stuff. I don't feel like I'm getting ready to wobble or anything. With Pacquiao, he just touches you and you're already wobbling. It's not like he's heavy-handed. He's not heavy-handed. It's weird. It's the weirdest thing.

 

You feel the impact of his punches and when you feel it in your glove, the impact is not hard. You're not like, "Oh my God, he's hitting hard. This is a hard punch." Only when he lands on your face is when you feel like you're getting dizzy. Either it's some kind of Chinese breaking bricks kind of thing, the 1-inch punch, or whatever, something like that, or it's something else. It's something different. It's not the same traditional punch that's strong. It's not the same. It's not the pressure of the impact. It's not like, "Boom! Oh shit, this shit's hard. Damn, he's hitting hard." When somebody gets a punch on you and you catch it on your glove, you're like, "Damn, that was hard. He hits hard. He's heavy-handed." He's not heavy-handed. That's what throws you off. He's not heavy-handed. It's like a snap at the end or something. It's like, POP, and then you fall down and then wobble or something; it's like the weirdest thing.

 

The thing was I couldn't load up or anything like I wanted to because the minute I loaded up is the minute I would have got knocked down because he was throwing short punches and his short punches was hurting me. He didn't have to load up with any hard shots.

Like I said, he [Pacquiao] didn't feel that strong to me physically. Maybe that's because I'm physically stronger anyway, but as far as punches are concerned, he just touches you and you're fvcking bruised up. My whole face was bruised up and he really didn't hit me that much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8LKu5v_nso

He seems to believe that Pacman might have some "weird" internal power that transcends his mere physical strength and thus bestows him with deceptively-powerful, soft, "cotton fist" and short punches. This is the first time I've heard this description from one of his opponents, so maybe it's BS? I also haven't heard of him training in any internal style, either...so don't know how he would have attained such power? But, interesting rumor for IMA fans, nonetheless!

Edited November 9, 2011 by vortex