[TTC Study] Chapter 66 of the Tao Teh Ching

[lienshan]

Differences? Oh My Goodness! Connection, my friend, not differences.

What's the connection of below and behind?

[Marblehead]

What's the connection of below and behind?

 

 

The connection is their position. The below has an above and the behind has an 'in front of'.

 

None of the positions are the "best" in all conditions. This is because of the dynamics of Tao.

[dawei]

I try another shot:

 

The river and the sea are what is regarded(1) the king of the 100 mountainstreams.

They(2) use their ability to act the 100 mountainstreams below.

This usability(3) acts the king of the 100 mountainstreams.

 

(1) 'suo yi wei' meant in classical chinese the term 'what is regarded'.

(2) The personal pronoun as subject was omitted in classical chinese.

(3) 'yi neng' must be the subject (a noun) when 'wei' is the verb.

 

That'll say what they cause, not what they are, make them king of the 100 mountainstreams.

 

An alternative one liner translation:

 

The river and the sea, which are regarded the kings of the 100 mountainstreams, use their ability to act the 100 mountainstreams below and this usability acts the king of the 100 mountainstreams.

I left my version wordy to simply convey some of the literalness; but I would not translate "100" anything as I would not translate "100 surnames". In both cases it means 'all' of them. That is why I used the world 'realm'.

 

The river and sea is regarded as king of the [100] mountainstreams

 

The next line may depend on whether you think it refers to the 100 mountainstreams or the river and sea. But this separates them when they are connected; The downward action of water connects (Transforms) mountainstreams to rivers and oceans.

 

This is a result of the downward capacity of the [100] mountainstreams.

 

I personally think you get struck on 'act' for Wei; it means some action is taking place, so just state the action, not the word 'act'.

 

It is this [downward] capacity whereby the [100] mountainstreams are [transformed to] king (river and sea).

 

Now i know there will objection to this last line but again, there is 'able action' (neng wei) so one should just state that action; It is the downward capacity which connects the mountainstreams and the river and sea to be one and the same. The moutainstreams are a self-rulership; they follow their nature and become something else or more (transformation).

 

While "king of the 100 mountainstreams" appears to be the direct translation, the meaning is what we know from direct experience; they are one and the same. So I am trying to translate and preserve that idea.

Edited September 7, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

 

It is the downward capacity which connects the mountainstreams and the river and sea to be one and the same. The moutainstreams are a self-rulership; they follow their nature and become something else or more (transformation).

 

I like that!

[lienshan]

It is this [downward] capacity whereby the [100] mountainstreams are [transformed to] king (river and sea).

 

Now i know there will objection to this last line but again,

there is 'able action' (neng wei) so one should just state that action;

If 'neng wei' mean 'able to act' then does 'shi yi' mean 'therefore'. But that's only a detail.

 

What's important is, that the main stream translations only focus on 'below' and have thus difficulties explaining Laozi's use of both below and behind in the following lines. 'behind' must be the mountainvalleys, dried out in summer, when the mountainstreams have followed their natural course downwards and have become first a river and then the sea.

[Marblehead]

If 'neng wei' mean 'able to act' then does 'shi yi' mean 'therefore'. But that's only a detail.

 

What's important is, that the main stream translations only focus on 'below' and have thus difficulties explaining Laozi's use of both below and behind in the following lines. 'behind' must be the mountainvalleys, dried out in summer, when the mountainstreams have followed their natural course downwards and have become first a river and then the sea.

 

And when the rain stops falling the mountainstreams are left behind.

 

I know that probably didn't help but I wanted to say it anyhow.

[dawei]

If 'neng wei' mean 'able to act' then does 'shi yi' mean 'therefore'. But that's only a detail.

 

What's important is, that the main stream translations only focus on 'below' and have thus difficulties explaining Laozi's use of both below and behind in the following lines. 'behind' must be the mountainvalleys, dried out in summer, when the mountainstreams have followed their natural course downwards and have become first a river and then the sea.

是以 - therefore / thus / so (and other related meanings in context)

 

I don't follow what version you mean or where is "Both". I see comments on above and below; front and back. juxtaposed opposites is what's important here, IMO.

Edited September 7, 2011 by dawei

[Procurator]

And when the rain stops falling the mountainstreams are left behind.

 

there should be a "No Mountainstream Left Behind Act" then

 

 

what? not helpful?

[ion]

Today at least, I will say that this passage is about leadership being about servitude in order to unite.

 

Once a culture evolves out of it's tribal roots, people in positions of leadership naturally form a sub culture which evolves into a culture unless the leaders reamain humble and retain partnership with the people.

 

In a buisness, lets say a night club, the manager on busy nights helps bus the tables and clean the bathrooms and serve drinks at the bar; he fills the gaps from the highest to the lowest.

 

Because of his universatililty(?), he effectively has become one with each of the departments of the whole. Because he is willing to assume the lowest positions he earns the respect of the whole and serves to unify rather then divide.

 

The spring in the mountain valley is like the sage, but the mountain valley just ends up givving what it gets to the rivers who inturn give it to the sea, the sea is the begining and the end of the water cycle and gives it back 100 fold to the rivers and lakes.

[ChiDragon]

Today at least, I will say that this passage is about leadership being about servitude in order to unite.

 

Once a culture evolves out of it's tribal roots, people in positions of leadership naturally form a sub culture which evolves into a culture unless the leaders reamain humble and retain partnership with the people.

 

In a buisness, lets say a night club, the manager on busy nights helps bus the tables and clean the bathrooms and serve drinks at the bar; he fills the gaps from the highest to the lowest.

 

Because of his universatililty(?), he effectively has become one with each of the departments of the whole. Because he is willing to assume the lowest positions he earns the respect of the whole and serves to unify rather then divide.

 

Yes, that is the whole theme of the chapter. I'm glad that you have read it the same way:)

[XieJia]

Enjoyed your guys insights and translation.

Let me try with my humble attempt.

 

 

Thus the seas and rivers are kings of hundred mountain-streams,

By means of the ability to be below all that of hundred mountain-streams,

Hence so the seas and rivers are kings of hundred mountain-streams.

 

Thus the sages moves humanity forward while being behind,

he moves humanity upward by being below.

Humanity wont be behind, only that of forward;

humanity wont slander,

Thus happiness fills all under Heaven without peak.

By means of one not fighting, no one under Heaven can fight with one.

 

*The character wang - King -> line uniting heaven,earth and man. -> To rule is to be the one that unites three, thus the phrase Son of Heaven.

Sheng from the word Sheng Ren -> Sage -> is also a character that denotes the Vessel of Heaven, Earth and Man.

 

The become the vessel of all; hahaha it's a wonder indeed.

[Marblehead]

there should be a "No Mountainstream Left Behind Act" then

 

 

what? not helpful?

 

Yes, that was helpful. It caused a belly laugh. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

Once a culture evolves out of it's tribal roots, people in positions of leadership naturally form a sub culture which evolves into a culture unless the leaders reamain humble and retain partnership with the people.

 

Interesting you say this. A couple weeks ago I was talking with my physical friend here and I made the statement that our government (the US) has acquired a life of its own. It no longer needs "we, the people". Sad, I think.

[Marblehead]

Enjoyed your guys insights and translation.

Let me try with my humble attempt.

 

Acceptable, I think. You did hit the main concept based on my understanding of the chapter.

[lienshan]

Let's hear what Shen Dao has to say about the subject:

 

勁而害能則亂也

雲能而害無能則亂也

 

The tough and vulnerable rules chaos.

The head-in-the-clouds and hurt has no talent for ruling chaos.

 

I have at least two reasons why I link this Shen Dao no 23 text to Laozi's chapter 66:

 

雲 means 'mountainstreams vapor' according to the Shuo Wen dictionary.

能 'able to, talent' do too occur more times in the beginning of chapter 66.

[Marblehead]

 

The tough and vulnerable rules chaos.

 

The word 'vulnerable' doesn't seem to be the appropriate word for the thought being presented.

 

Chaos doesn't give a shit therefore it would be 'invulnerable'; not capable of being hurt.

[XieJia]

I have yet to read Shenzi's work. But and reading the following from Marblehead's remarks; I would like to try to give another interpretation:

 

害

 

 

The character hai or hurt; denotes a roof over the what I see as Wang (Unification of Heaven, Earth, Man) and Kou (Opening).

I would dare to speculate as the Will of Self upon Heaven, Earth and Man.

 

勁而害能則亂也, 雲能而害無能, 則亂也.

 

Could also translate to something along this line:

The Able Toughs, the Unable Cloud-Heads; it is the will of these that governs the times of Chaos.

 

So to say that time of Chaos arised

when the Toughs have ability and the Cloud-Heads have no ability.

Chaos is sustained with the existence of the two

 

Without these two, how can there be Chaos?

These two factors creates Chaos and govern Chaos.

When the Cloud-Heads is unable, bad governances follows.

The Toughs took up arms, they fought each other.

Even when one unites all the Tough, if the Cloud-Heads are still unable; there will not be peace. We can see the example of Qin, Wei (Cao Cao's), Mongols, Alexander, Rome... etc...

 

So if this is so, could we also say the time of peace is

when the Toughs is unable and the Cloud-Heads able?

Edited September 13, 2011 by XieJia

[Marblehead]

The Able Toughs, the Unable Cloud-Heads; it is the will of these that governs the times of Chaos.

 

Okay. I can buy that.

[lienshan]

The word 'vulnerable' doesn't seem to be the appropriate word for the thought being presented.

I understand your objection and try another shot:

 

The tough yet injured is able to rule chaos.

The head-in-the-clouds yet injured has no talent for ruling chaos.

 

I have the feeling, that Shen Dao nicknames Laozi 'the head-in-the-clouds' refering to chapter 66,

but am aware that I'm walking thin ice.

[Marblehead]

Hehehe.

 

You both are so damn close now I don't want to make any more comments because it would look like I was taking sides and I want to avoid that whenever I can.

[lienshan]

The position of a sage, the advance of the people, acting the body behind-made

and his position, the elevation of the people, acting the speech below-made

is like

his position, the elevation of the people, is the people not overriding

and his position, the advance of the people, is the people not disparaging.

So if this is so, could we also say the time of peace is

when the Toughs is unable and the Cloud-Heads able?

That'll say never according to my own translation of the chapter 66 middle section.

Ruling only oneself and therewith serving others is my way of reading these lines.

[dawei]

I have at least two reasons why I link this Shen Dao no 23 text to Laozi's chapter 66:

 

雲 means 'mountainstreams vapor' according to the Shuo Wen dictionary.

能 'able to, talent' do too occur more times in the beginning of chapter 66.

The issue I have with this would be that such vapor (Qi) is nothing but mist. Yes, you can see mist about the mountains but the chapter is not about mist (suspended water drops in air) but physically flowing water on earth.

[XieJia]

That'll say never according to my own translation of the chapter 66 middle section.

Ruling only oneself and therewith serving others is my way of reading these lines.

 

I can see and understand the point in making aswell, all I want is just to try to give an alternatives.

I do like to give ShenZi a touch of Daoism and a touch of Legalism; though I need to read his work.

Laozi and Shenzi are gone;

ok maybe Laozi is in Chinatown and Shenzi at the Pawnshop but who knows.

 

@Marblehead

It will be nice of you to share with us as well or perhaps maybe a little nudge by putting yourself behind?

 

Born on Land, nurtured by water; the good swimmer forgot he's in water.

So did the fishes; the birds, snake and the millipedes.

Edited September 14, 2011 by XieJia

[lienshan]

the chapter is not about mist (suspended water drops in air) but physically flowing water on earth.

Physically:

 

The 100 mountainvalleys symbolize the people above and in the front.

The river bed symbolizes the speech of the sage below the people.

The sea bed symbolizes the body of the sage behind the people.

 

The music of the world advances but not disliked, because it doesn't invade.

Therefore the inability to engage in the world warfare.

 

'The music' symbolizes the water.

'advances' that it is flowing.

Edited September 14, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

Let's hear what Shen Dao has to say about the subject:

 

勁而害能則亂也

雲能而害無能則亂也

 

The tough and vulnerable rules chaos.

The head-in-the-clouds and hurt has no talent for ruling chaos.

 

I have at least two reasons why I link this Shen Dao no 23 text to Laozi's chapter 66:

 

雲 means 'mountainstreams vapor' according to the Shuo Wen dictionary.

能 'able to, talent' do too occur more times in the beginning of chapter 66.

 

FYI...

雲 besides "cloud" it could mean "it was said to be" in ancient text.