[TTC Study] Chapter 66 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 66

 

John Wu

 

How does the sea become the king of all streams?

Because it lies lower than they!

Hence it is the king of all streams.

Therefore, the Sage reigns over the people by humbling himself in speech;

And leads the people by putting himself behind.

Thus it is that when a Sage stands above the people,

They do not feel the heaviness of his weight;

And when he stands in front of the people, they do not feel hurt.

Therefore all the world is glad to push him forward without getting tired of him.

Just because he strives with nobody,

Nobody can ever strive with him.

 

 

English/Feng

 

Why is the sea king of a hundred streams?

Because it lies below them.

Therefore it is the king of a hundred streams.

If the sage would guide the people, he must serve with humility.

If he would lead them, he must follow behind.

In this way when the sage rules, the people will not feel oppressed;

When he stands before them, they will not be harmed.

The whole world will support him and will not tire of him.

Because he does not compete,

He does not meet competition.

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

The reason why rivers and oceans are able to be the kings of the one hundred valleys is that they are good at being below them.

For this reason they are able to be the kings of the one hundred valleys.

Therefore in the Sage's desire to be above the people,

He must in his speech be below them.

And in his desire to be at the front of the people,

He must in his person be behind them.

Thus he dwells above, yet the people do not regard him as heavy;

And he dwells in front, yet the people do not see him as posing a threat.

The whole world delights in his praise and never tires of him.

Is it not because he is not contentious,

That, as a result, no one in the world can contend with him?!

 

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[stan herman]

Another version for your entertainment

 

The mightiest lakes and seas are always at the lower places of the earth. By being low they accept all that flows to them from higher places and are so enriched. A leader with true humility, who has no fear of seeming low, has no requirement to station himself high. He too accepts all that flows to him and perceives its value.

 

A modest leader can follow the direction of his followers and discern its worth. When he directs his followers his direction is in harmony with theirs. Appreciating each follower's needs he seldom impedes.

[lienshan]

Another version for your entertainment

 

The mightiest lakes and seas ...

There's only one sea at the coast of China

 

I think that Laozi's preceeding "river and sea" are mentioned with a pointe, that the traditional translators miss?

 

The river and the sea; which one rules the 100 mountainstreams?

Regard their ability as the low of the 100 mountainstreams.

Therefore their ability to rule the 100 mountainstreams.

[Marblehead]

There's only one sea at the coast of China

 

I think that Laozi's preceeding "river and sea" are mentioned with a pointe, that the traditional translators miss?

 

The river and the sea; which one rules the 100 mountainstreams?

Regard their ability as the low of the 100 mountainstreams.

Therefore their ability to rule the 100 mountainstreams.

 

Hehehe. But I did still like the interpretation.

[Jeff]

There's only one sea at the coast of China

 

I think that Laozi's preceeding "river and sea" are mentioned with a pointe, that the traditional translators miss?

 

The river and the sea; which one rules the 100 mountainstreams?

Regard their ability as the low of the 100 mountainstreams.

Therefore their ability to rule the 100 mountainstreams.

 

Very good point.

 

Thought streams and a sea of consciousness.

 

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 66 - The King of the Valleys

1. The reasons for the River and Ocean that can become the king of the valleys, 　

2. Because they are good in placing themselves in a low position,

3. Therefore, they can be the king of the valleys.

4. If the sage would like to be on the top of the people,

5. He must be humble with them.

6. He must let the people come before himself,

7. He must stay behind them.

8. A sage was placed on the top of the people and not pressuring them.

9. He was placed in front of the people with no harm comes to them.

10. Therefore, the people are happy to have him and they won't be tired of him,

11. Because he does not contend,

12. Therefore, no one will be able to compete with him.

 

 

第六十六章

1. 江海之所以為百谷王者,

2. 以其善下之，

3. 故能為百谷王。

4. 是以聖人欲上民,

5. 必以言下之，

6. 欲先民，

7. 必以身後之。

8. 是以聖人處上而民不重，

9. 處前而民不害。

10.是以天下樂推而不厭。

11.以其不爭，

12.故天下不能與之爭。

Edited September 4, 2011 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

Very good point.

 

Thought streams and a sea of consciousness.

Didn't you miss the rivers in Laozi's parable?

 

The rivers are lower than the 100 mountainstreams but higher than the sea!

 

I do not see this obvious fact mentioned in any traditional translation?

[dawei]

There's only one sea at the coast of China

But that is your thought; not the ancient chinese... Otherwise they would not have a saying like:

 

"All within the Four Seas are related (brothers)."

 

Water and mountains are often used to denote that which makes up the land or surrounds the land. JiangShan (Rivers and Mountains) and SiHai (Four Seas).

 

So, a singular translation of Hai is ok but don't try to justify that the ancient chinese thought in terms of a single sea alone. That does not seem to hold water.

Edited September 4, 2011 by dawei

[Marblehead]

That does not seem to hold water.

 

Oh! That's punny!!!! Hehehe.

[lienshan]

1. The reasons for the River and Ocean that can become the king of the valleys, 　

2. Because they are good in placing themselves in a low position,

3. Therefore, they can be the king of the valleys.

Are the River and Ocean good in placing themselves? Where are their chairs

 

 

A river and a sea; which one rules the 100 mountainstreams?

Regard this ability as the low of the 100 mountainstreams.

Therefore their ability to rule the 100 mountainstreams.

 

The pointe of the above translation is that if "to rule" is equal to "being lower",

then are both a river and a sea able to rule the 100 mountainstreams.

 

Because why doesn't e.g. rain and melting snow rule the 100 mountainstreams?

That's only obvious, when the ability of "to rule" is defined as "lower"!

Edited September 5, 2011 by lienshan

[ChiDragon]

Are the River and Ocean good in placing themselves? Where are their chairs

 

 

A river and a sea; which one rules the 100 mountainstreams?

Regard this ability as the low of the 100 mountainstreams.

Therefore their ability to rule the 100 mountainstreams.

 

The pointe of the above translation is that if "to rule" is equal to "being lower",

then are both a river and a sea able to rule the 100 mountainstreams.

 

Because why doesn't e.g. rain and melting snow rule the 100 mountainstreams?

That's only obvious, when the ability of "to rule" is defined as "lower"!

 

i thought you are able to read metaphors by now...

[Marblehead]

i thought you are able to read metaphors by now...

 

Hehehe. Belly laughs. He loves trying to put everything into literal context, doesn't he?

[ChiDragon]

Hehehe. Belly laughs. He loves trying to put everything into literal context, doesn't he?

 

Yes, he sure does that all the time. I did try to tell him at another Tao site, but here he is again.

 

You are welcome! lienshan...

[Marblehead]

Yes, he sure does that all the time. I did try to tell him at another Tao site, but here he is again.

 

You are welcome! lienshan...

 

Yeah, he's just offering an alternate perspective. That's good. (I do it all the time.)

[lienshan]

He loves trying to put everything into literal context, doesn't he?

You're right if literal context is a metaphor for ziran context

 

 

One have to understand nature, the uncarved block, in order to understand this chapter:

The lowest rock of the river and the ocean is the riverbed and the ocean bed!

 

Grounded is the metaphor for the position of the sage in the next lines of the chapter.

Grounded is not the metaphor for ChiDragon's translation

[Marblehead]

You're right if literal context is a metaphor for ziran context

 

 

One have to understand nature, the uncarved block, in order to understand this chapter:

The lowest rock of the river and the ocean is the riverbed and the ocean bed!

 

Grounded is the metaphor for the position of the sage in the next lines of the chapter.

Grounded is not the metaphor for ChiDragon's translation

 

You're doing great, my friend. Keep up the good work!

[dawei]

Are the River and Ocean good in placing themselves? Where are their chairs

 

 

A river and a sea; which one rules the 100 mountainstreams?

Regard this ability as the low of the 100 mountainstreams.

Therefore their ability to rule the 100 mountainstreams.

 

The pointe of the above translation is that if "to rule" is equal to "being lower",

then are both a river and a sea able to rule the 100 mountainstreams.

 

Because why doesn't e.g. rain and melting snow rule the 100 mountainstreams?

That's only obvious, when the ability of "to rule" is defined as "lower"!

I'll toss you a bone as I tend to agree with this line. The Guodian did not have the word "good". I think that is an unfortunate change since it tends to personify the action of water; What would be 'bad' concerning the action of water?

 

So much was changed in the original to the received that I think it's better to go back to the original to gain insight to what was intended.

[lienshan]

The next sentence is in the Guodian version one of Laozi's greatest sentences:

38 characters inclussive 6 grammatical ye characters!

Here displayed literal

 

The position of a sage, the advance of the people, acting the body behind-made

and his position, the elevation of the people, acting the speech below-made

is like

his position, the elevation of the people, is the people not overriding

and his position, the advance of the people, is the people not disparaging.

 

The structure of the whole sentence is put into Laozi's preferred arguement formula:

 

A and B

 

is like

 

C and D

 

That'll say A is like C and B is like D

[ChiDragon]

You're doing great, my friend. Keep up the good work!

 

Are you encouraging for more belly laughs...???

[Marblehead]

Are you encouraging for more belly laughs...???

 

That too, yes. Hehehe.

[dawei]

Are the River and Ocean good in placing themselves? Where are their chairs

 

 

A river and a sea; which one rules the 100 mountainstreams?

Regard this ability as the low of the 100 mountainstreams.

Therefore their ability to rule the 100 mountainstreams.

 

The pointe of the above translation is that if "to rule" is equal to "being lower",

then are both a river and a sea able to rule the 100 mountainstreams.

 

Because why doesn't e.g. rain and melting snow rule the 100 mountainstreams?

That's only obvious, when the ability of "to rule" is defined as "lower"!

Here is how I see the opening:

 

The rivers and oceans are the result of the action(1) of the realm of the valley waters.

This is because the able action of the realm of the valley waters downwardness(2)

Thus the able action as king of the realm of the valley waters(3)

 

(1) This is, the natural flow of water

(2) This is the property of the natural flow of water; downward

(3) This is the result of the natural flow of water; The key is that the source of the ability to reign is that it follows its natural ability; thus it transforms to the king among all the waters above (although is itself those waters from above).

 

Guodian:

- Line 1 has 浴 (Yu) instead of 谷 (Gu). It is clear that the latter substitution of 'valley' is not the focus but the valley waters. Mountainstreams seem equally fine

 

- Lines 1-3 repeat a phrase in all three lines: 为百浴 - action of the 100 valley waters. The last two lines are parallel with 能为百浴 so later versions made the first line parallel by adding a 能 in line 1.

 

 

That's only obvious, when the ability of "to rule" is defined as "lower"!

 

It is not equated to 'lower' but the ability to follow it's natural course, which for water is downward.

 

[能]为百浴王 vs 能为百浴下

 

"Lower" in itself is not the issue really as the next lines talk about forward and back; above and below.

 

It is also unfortunate that later versions added the word 'desire' to make it as if this is the sage follows a desire.

[lienshan]

The rivers and oceans are the result of the action(1) of the realm of the valley waters.

This is because the able action of the realm of the valley waters downwardness(2)

Thus the able action as king of the realm of the valley waters(3)

I try another shot:

 

The river and the sea are what is regarded(1) the king of the 100 mountainstreams.

They(2) use their ability to act the 100 mountainstreams below.

This usability(3) acts the king of the 100 mountainstreams.

 

(1) 'suo yi wei' meant in classical chinese the term 'what is regarded'.

(2) The personal pronoun as subject was omitted in classical chinese.

(3) 'yi neng' must be the subject (a noun) when 'wei' is the verb.

 

That'll say what they cause, not what they are, make them king of the 100 mountainstreams.

 

An alternative one liner translation:

 

The river and the sea, which are regarded the kings of the 100 mountainstreams, use their ability to act the 100 mountainstreams below and this usability acts the king of the 100 mountainstreams.

Edited September 6, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

 

The river and the sea, which are regarded the kings of the 100 mountainstreams, use their ability to act the 100 mountainstreams below and this usability acts the king of the 100 mountainstreams.

 

What a wonderfully confusing one-liner. Hehehe.

[lienshan]

What a wonderfully confusing one-liner. Hehehe.

Water + gravity = rain

 

Water + gravity + ground = mountainstream, river or sea

 

Doesn't 'ability' and 'usability' express the difference between the two?

 

But that is your thought; not the ancient chinese... Otherwise they would not have a saying like:

 

"All within the Four Seas are related (brothers)."

 

Water and mountains are often used to denote that which makes up the land or surrounds the land. JiangShan (Rivers and Mountains) and SiHai (Four Seas).

 

So, a singular translation of Hai is ok but don't try to justify that the ancient chinese thought in terms of a single sea alone. That does not seem to hold water.

si hai (four oceans) occur in this exavacated Shen Dao text no 51 A 'quick' translation:

 

Laws aren't following Heaven.

Inferiors aren't following Earth.

Banishments emit from man.

How is the interval combined?

The heart of man and then rules what's water.

A decided blokage of a thatching defence are the four seas of the nine states.

Mutual similar to oneness.

Learn it from water.

Unlearn it from Yu. (the Great, Xia dynasty founder)

Edited September 7, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Water + gravity = rain

 

Water + gravity + ground = mountainstream, river or sea

 

Doesn't 'ability' and 'usability' express the difference between the two?

 

Ah! (Bright light)

 

Differences? Oh My Goodness! Connection, my friend, not differences.

 

The rain allows for the streams, rivers, and seas to exist.

 

The sea offers a resting place for all to return to.