death

[Vajrahridaya]

hi, this is not vaj, this is his wife

 

this has stumbled me for years and maybe i can get some clarity here

 

if we are like a computer - the hardware being our body and the software being our consciousness, how can software survive without the hard drive. i want to believe in something after death, but the more i think about it, the more i realize maybe we just die and sadly thats it. i know im going to die, my body and what went along with it - personality etc. but where is the proof that our soul lives on? i really want to believe we all have souls but sigh every year i get closer to the realization that we just die and thats the end. how can this be? and why? why cant we just live for all eternity? in essence not body of course

[Apech]

Hi Mrs. Vaj,

 

Perhaps we are not like computers at all and so the whole analogy doesn't really apply. All I can offer is some intuitive sense that there is some kind of continuance after the body stops working. I can't prove it and many will tell you its fantasy but there you are. You have to make your own mind up.

 

Have you asked your husband?

 

A.

[Creation]

Hi Mrs. Diamond Heart.

 

I am pleased to see you starting a legitimate thread, rather than a trolling thread. Welcome aboard!

 

They say that humans actually have multiple bodies, all bundled together, the physical body being the most dense. And that in death the subtle bodies are untethered from the physical body. So I don't think you can call the physical body the "hardware" and everything else the "software". I would say that all the bodies are the hardware, and the software is all the programs we are running: our habits and tendencies and ideas. Some of these are physical, some mental, some emotional, etc. These are stored in the "hardware" of the various bodies like programs on a hard drive. Buddhists call them samskaras. When you shed the physical body, you lose the samskaras associated solely with the physical body. Sort of like unplugging an external hard drive from the USB port. But you might have software stored in the other bodies saying "Hey, I needed something on an external hard drive, get me another one", and so you find yourself plugging into a new body, one that fits the bill for what the programs in the subtle bodies are clamoring for. Hence karma and reincarnation.

 

Perhaps a more extended computer analogy was not what you were looking for, but I thought it was a neat idea.

 

As far as proof, I wonder something. What would it mean to you to have proof that some part of you will live on after death? What is it that you are really longing for? It seems to me that what you are feeling is something goes beyond the idea of your body dying, and into your very sense of identity. And therein lies a lot of potential to grow beyond your current sense of identity.

 

Nice to meet you and wishing you the best.

Edited September 4, 2011 by Creation

[Marblehead]

Hi Mrs VJ,

 

Fair question.

 

I am an Atheist so please keep that in mind when you read my post.

 

I am a Taoist and basically, my understanding of the question is that "We do not know." what happens when we die.

 

Personally, I believe that we all have a Soul and a Spirit. I equate our Soul with our unconscious mind. When we die our brain dies so st too will our subconscious mind.

 

However, I equate our Spirit to our personal Chi, our life force. I hold to the understanding that our Chi returns to the Universal Chi upon death.

 

Do we keep our individuality? I don't thing so. We become one with One, perhaps to be reused in some other life form.

 

There will be no Marblehead when I bite the big one. But, there will be aspects of Marblehead all over the universe likely messing with some Buddhists.

 

Death is simply a returning. Like the saying, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. But what we have done will live as long as there is someone to remember.

[InfinityTruth]

If you think of how long you didn't exist before you were born, you will feel better. You've already experienced nonexistance, if that's what happens. Only the dead really know.

[rain]

first love. then death

how can one resist.

 

toss it around

upside down

 

can your death be a friend?

Edited September 4, 2011 by rain

[Marblehead]

If you think of how long you didn't exist before you were born, you will feel better. You've already experienced nonexistance, if that's what happens. Only the dead really know.

 

That's a nice way of looking at it.

[Aaron]

Dear dear Mrs V,

 

What a great question, perhaps the best one I've seen in a long time. I sense that you desire a genuine answer, so I will force myself not to give you the answer that makes you happy, but the answer I think is truthful.

 

First consciousness does not exist without the body, but that in no way means that the soul-heartmind-whatever you want to call it, doesn't carry on. Everything that exists comes from a source, even ourselves, we are merely the creation of this source.

 

Our time on this earth is temporary, at least in the sense of being us. The idea that death is the end is ludicrous though, because the whole notion that we are individuals is ludicrous. We are simply the universe. So as you exist, so do I. As Marblehead exists, so do I. As the rocks on the ground exist, so do I. As the source exists, so do I.

 

Will I continue to exist after I am dead and gone? No. I will cease to be "I", but does that mean I cease to be? Not in the least, because so long as their is a source-void-quantum consciousness-or whatever you want to call it, that does exist, we exist as well.

 

This notion that we do not exist comes from the experience many have when they reach this state of consciousness, the lack of thought and emotion tends to trick us into believing that what we experience isn't really there, but it is, it's just that it's the part of us that we realize without going deeper. Once we do go deeper, we understand that there is something more to it all and in finding this, we can finally find peace.

 

I have no fear of death, even if that means the "I" I have grown to believe I am ceases to exist, because I know even with the death of Universe what created this universe and me will continue to exist. And I know that the only reason I see you as being you and me as being me is because I don't understand that in the end we are all just separate parts to one thing. Being a part doesn't mean you are not that thing, unless you to choose to see yourself as separate, even then, it's only your perception of what you are, it doesn't change what you really are.

 

Good luck in finding your answer, but my advice is not to worry so much. Sit and meditate. Don't listen to what the Buddhists say or the Christians say or even the scientists, and instead look within yourself to find the answer. The answer is there and I guarantee that if you look you can find it. If after looking your answer is different than mine, then all the better that you chose to look.

 

Aaron

[ChiDragon]

1. I am an Atheist so please keep that in mind when you read my post.

I am a Taoist and basically, my understanding of the question is that "We do not know." what happens when we die.

 

2. There will be no Marblehead when I bite the big one. But, there will be aspects of Marblehead all over the universe likely messing with some Buddhists.

 

3. Death is simply a returning. Like the saying, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. But what we have done will live as long as there is someone to remember.

 

Here is the difference between a Buddhist and a Taoist.

A Buddhist wants to end all his miseries before death.

A Taoist will end all his miseries after death(ZZ but not LaoTze).

 

To LaoTze, death was only a natural thing.

[Marblehead]

To LaoTze, death was only a natural thing.

 

True. Lao Tzu never veiwed death from a mystical perspective. It was simply the end of life.

[mewtwo]

"The journey of one thousand miles begins with a single step" Lao tzu

 

In my journey i started with taichi and being someone that did not believe in the after life and such. Well slowly i saw that true masters could do incredible things with qi or energy. So i did some research that lead me to different religions and i found taoism. Taoism really resonated with me. I think that it is because of taichi that i have firm belief in the afterlife. It is not something out here but osmething inside you that is where the real stuff is.

 

 

Just my own belifes but i find reading about death makes it more and more believable that there is something after. Here is a good book.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Graceful-Exits-Stories-Tibetan-Masters/dp/0834803917

[suninmyeyes]

Hello,nice to meet you Mrs Vj ,

 

Here is a poem for inspiration.

A poem for opening to love affair and friendship.

It is written by one of my favourite poetresses Rabia of Basra :

 

 

Die before you die

 

 

Ironic, but one of the most intimate acts

of our body

is death.

 

So beutiful appeard my death -

knowing who then I

would kiss,

I died thousand times before I died.

 

'Die before you die'said

Prophet Muhammad.

 

 

Have wings that fear ever

touched the Sun?

 

I was born when all once

I feard - I could love.

Edited September 4, 2011 by suninmyeyes

[Stigweard]

hi, this is not vaj, this is his wife

 

this has stumbled me for years and maybe i can get some clarity here

 

if we are like a computer - the hardware being our body and the software being our consciousness, how can software survive without the hard drive. i want to believe in something after death, but the more i think about it, the more i realize maybe we just die and sadly thats it. i know im going to die, my body and what went along with it - personality etc. but where is the proof that our soul lives on? i really want to believe we all have souls but sigh every year i get closer to the realization that we just die and thats the end. how can this be? and why? why cant we just live for all eternity? in essence not body of course

Consider the possibility that all we will be is after death is good compost that will feed the life of other beings. Get comfortable and happy with that probable reality.

 

You know, you come form nothing - you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing! Sing with me ... Always look on the bright side of life!

 

[Mal]

[Harmonious Emptiness]

hi, this is not vaj, this is his wife

 

this has stumbled me for years and maybe i can get some clarity here

 

if we are like a computer - the hardware being our body and the software being our consciousness, how can software survive without the hard drive. i want to believe in something after death, but the more i think about it, the more i realize maybe we just die and sadly thats it. i know im going to die, my body and what went along with it - personality etc. but where is the proof that our soul lives on? i really want to believe we all have souls but sigh every year i get closer to the realization that we just die and thats the end. how can this be? and why? why cant we just live for all eternity? in essence not body of course

 

Well Mrs. Vajrahridaya, the thing with that is that we are not software and computers. It's not the soul that needs the body to survive, rather the other way around. Our personality might make its imprint on our spirit which continues on, and its very common for people to see someones spirit leave the body. I've heard it said that our temperament develops over time, but our personality, to a degree, is something that a child is born with. So cultivate your spirit. It's all that you are. Be generous, kind, loving, wise (surely you already are). These are the only treasures that we can truly grow and share forever and ever.

[Green Tiger]

I like creation's answer. I especially like the part that suggests there is something more than fear of death bothering you.

 

In another thread, I recently mentioned that Alan Watts said you should seriously consider two things:

 

1) To imagine what it will be like to go to sleep and never wake up.

 

2) That your true nature is selfish.

 

He suggested that, after much consideration, you might find that neither is completely true. But try it, and see what you find.

[deci belle]

[Thunder_Gooch]

Before you were born into this world you were dead, you've been dead before and came into existence at least once that you can be sure of. If the universe is both infinite and eternal I think it's safe to say that will happen again. Maybe your memories, personality, ego, identity etc won't transfer, but the base awareness will continue in a new form. This is what I believe.

 

 

hi, this is not vaj, this is his wife

 

this has stumbled me for years and maybe i can get some clarity here

 

if we are like a computer - the hardware being our body and the software being our consciousness, how can software survive without the hard drive. i want to believe in something after death, but the more i think about it, the more i realize maybe we just die and sadly thats it. i know im going to die, my body and what went along with it - personality etc. but where is the proof that our soul lives on? i really want to believe we all have souls but sigh every year i get closer to the realization that we just die and thats the end. how can this be? and why? why cant we just live for all eternity? in essence not body of course

[Sunya]

I don't think there's any use theorizing about this sort of stuff and trying to make sense of it conceptually, and then having faith or conviction in who/what you are purely on an ideological level.

 

Truly the only way to answer such a question is to go beyond concepts completely and meditate. If there is anything that we can learn from masters of the great mystical traditions, it's that the truth must be realized by every individual for themselves empirically through their own experience. Direct experiential knowledge of our true nature is the only way to go if you truly want to know the answer to the question "who am I?" Anything else is just an opinion based on beliefs and assumptions and really has no positive value.

 

I think that the best way to approach a path is to not be so skeptical but rather openminded and curious. Hmm, could that be so? Could there be truly more to me than this limited little "I"? Let's find out.. With that kind of approach, you'll have an answer.

[hagar]

[Seth Ananda]

I like to think that Life has no opposite and thus never ends.

 

Birth is the prerequisite for Death, so Death is the opposite of Birth, not Life.

 

I myself have never witnessed any evidence for 'Non Life' as everything feels alive to me. A rotting corpse is full of life. Teeming Living Bacteria is breaking down an old life form, but no where is the Life Force itself absent. Minerals are transforming, trees are breathing, everything is in constant motion.

 

When I watch death, what is it I am watching? The person I knew is gone suddenly, that light I saw in their eyes, that look that was them, is suddenly not there... To me, the body they had is not what made them them, so where did that part go?

 

Their eyes are still there, so is their body, but what was it that carried their body around? That force has suddenly moved on...

 

 

There is no proof that awareness is limited to the body. We cant really define at all what awareness is. It does not seem to have a substance. there are plenty of cases where people who were hooked to brain machines were declared clinically dead, yet they could give accurate reports of things spoken or events that took place. All while being brain dead.

 

 

 

At the same time, we do not want to let the awareness of death [impermanence] really penetrate our lives. We spend so much time imagining that temporary things will bring us happiness, and to me that is our way of protecting ourselves from the vulnerable feelings, that being aware of our Immanent death can bring. Panic. Fear.

 

If we were suddenly told our loved one only had two weeks to live, that loved one would suddenly become very precious to us, we would dote on them, appreciate them, and love every second with them. Our hearts would break open wide.

 

This is so sad to me, as it shows just how deluded we are about our own Impermanence.

 

The reality is we have all been given that sentence. Not by a doctor but by being born. We could die at any second. All our loved ones are going to die also. We have no Idea when or where.

The sad thing is that If we were fully aware of Impermanence, we would be fully aware of the precious nature of every moment together. We would really love each other, not just for the two weeks some doctor may one day give us...

 

Impermanence makes us raw and loving and open if we let it. You are fortunate to be having thoughts and doubts about death. Even if death really is the end of us entirely, Living fully with the fact of its Inevitability, will help you really live and really love and enjoy every moment. Then when death comes to you, you will not have the regrets of not having cherished your loved ones, or fully lived your life. You will die bravely and satisfied.

 

For me Buddhism has brought me to this, but there are other paths there as well.

Even though I believe in life after death, I think it would entail a massive transformation of sense of self. I would not recommend any path that gives you beliefs that serve to protect you from the truth of Impermanence.

 

Like: "After you die you live in heaven forever, where everything you want you get, and you are waited on by fat flying babies..." This kind of belief lets us falsely believe that everything will work out all right without any suffering. We can be as attached to false things as we want, put of loving our close ones till after the simpsons is finished.

 

For me, as Impermanence sinks through my thick skull, my bad habits no longer seem useful, I no longer seek happiness in things that will not last, and more and more of my attachments just die. This brings a great kind of freedom and happiness. I am now a far better father to my daughter, as I really really appreciate her. I know she could be taken at any second. Its heart breaking and wonderful at the same time.

And I am gaining compassion for strangers in ever increasing amounts... [sorely needed lol]

I am finding a Happiness not based on things. It comes from awareness itself, when it is clearly seeing reality, clinging to nothing.

I believe your partner calls it Rigpa.

 

I aim to Live and Die in this state.

 

It is not my body, my body is like a dream.

 

It is not my mind or thoughts, they are decorations for it.

 

It is the experiencer of everything that will age, change, decay and die.

 

No one can say what it is with any certainty, but without it there is no life, no world, no time, no knowledge, no theory's, no senses, no body...

 

Therefore it is prior to all concepts of the world. The Idea that awareness is limited to the body can only come about because awareness is already there. Awareness is the base of all knowledge.

 

Awareness is always present. Unconsciousness is an experience of a lack of inner and outer sensory data, which includes perception of time.

 

If someone shouts your name while you are in deep sleep you wake up. Something is obviously still there. My experiences of General anaesthetic, and of being KO'd, and from once stopping my heart have showed me that even unconsciousness is a kind of experience within awareness... So why not death?

 

Anyway I have rambled enough. I wish you great Blessings.

 

Love Seth.

 

P.S. Why don't you sign up with your own name?

[C T]

Seth/Deci Belle...

 

Two wonderful posts, lots of great insights as usual! Amazing realizations from you both. Touched. Very grateful... _/\_

 

(just a little inspired insert that came to my mind after reading your posts! )

[Creation]

For me, as Impermanence sinks through my thick skull, my bad habits no longer seem useful, I no longer seek happiness in things that will not last, and more and more of my attachments just die.

 

[inspiring quote award]

[rex]

I've read many things about death and heard many teachings but of course can't say for sure that I'm certain about any of it. It's down to personal and spiritual aesthetics.

 

For some death will be a welcome release from a life of misery, I remember some graffitti on the Berlin Wall which said "When I die I am going to heaven as I'm already living in hell."

 

I have visions (not real BTW, more like a fear) ending up in a galaxy size auditorium with my, ahem, 'less than honourable' outer and inner moments being viewed by a massive celestial gathering on a vast stellar screen.

 

The symbolism of Kinkara lends an interesting perspective:

 

 

"The dancing, grinning skeletons ... express a dynamic vision of death and change, viewed as an estatic dance of transformation, unchanging inner essence transcending the constant mutations of externals. Meditation on the impermanence of all phenomena should lead to a joyful freedom from attachment, and not to a morbid pessimism." [Taken from 'The Crystal and the Way of Light'.]

Edited September 6, 2011 by rex

[Vajrahridaya]

thanks everyone for ur replies, very good insights

 

im just stuck on when there is nothing, there is always something, but once you dont have a brain, how can you even think of something when nothing is there, of course we cant think of nothing when we are alive and thats what scares me

 

maybe i just miss being a child bc everything seemed to make sense, even death, it wasnt even scary. i dont know what happened and i dont know why im now obsessed with death but i just cannot stop thinking about it

 

but thanks, a lot of the answers gave me some ease. if only someone could come back from being dead for a year or something. too bad the buddha himself cant just materialize right in front of me right now and answer my questions i just dont know when i will ever get it... where is the buddha now i ask, a popular answer i get is inside you but once im gone and all the ppl that ever knew me are gone, where is he now? what happens when there are no more humans? then what? sigh, what happens when there is no more anything. see, thats what scares me, where is the love when u die when u have nothing to experience it?